Discrimination against gays?

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by B_Lightkeeper, May 14, 2008.

  1. B_Lightkeeper

    B_Lightkeeper New Member

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    We pay taxes for public education yet few of us have children.
    The majority of us can't get insurance and financial benefits of partners.
    Many gays stay in the "closet" for fear of ridicue from fellow workers and friends.
    And the list goes on. And on.
    Share your comments.
     
  2. erratic

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    We're lucky that's all.

    My country hasn't executed me recently. Not every homo can say that.
     
  3. DC_DEEP

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    I agree with your points, with the exception of the education thing. Think of it more like paying off a student loan - you pay taxes for public education now, because you (not your parents, you) weren't paying for it at the time you were receiving it.

    Now, as for other taxes, especially income tax, that's a different story. If I pay sales tax and income tax at the same rate as any other citizen, I should be entitled to ALL the same benefits and services, but I'm not, because I'm gay. If I work the same job at the same rate of pay as the guy sitting next to me, I should get the same benefits and protections, but I don't, because I'm gay.

    Is that the best you can do? Any oppressed minority should say, "They haven't killed me yet, so I should be happy to be a second-class citizen!"??? Since the "offenders" weren't "officially" executed by the government, miscegnation laws should still be on the books? Women weren't being executed for trying to vote, so they should have just happily accepted their role as chattel, and stopped whining about it?
     
  4. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    You don't have to wait for your country to execute you. Just accidently hit on a homophobic straight guy from the deep south, or better yet, bring them on a talk show and tell them you have a crush on them. THEN you'll get executed. :rolleyes:

    In all seriousness, discrimination based on sexual preference is apparent and in most instances accepted by the mainstream. It goes beyond racial discrimination, for it touches on more taboo subjects that are sometimes the core behind other forms of discrimination. And yes, our country hasn't assassinated someone for being gay. Yet many people have died silent deaths trying to fight for their equal rights. If homosexuals have to pay taxes and live by society's rules, then they should have every benefit as well. It may not be as bad as the Holocaust or the Civil Right's Movement for Black People or Women, but it's just as relevant... and it's been going on a hell of a lot longer. Too long if you ask me.
     
  5. Charles Finn

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    Mathew Shepard and Brandon Tina come to mind.
    and don't forget don't ask don't tell.
    we have come a long way in 40 years but still have a long way to go
    I first started marching for equal rights in the early 90's but now it has turned into one big parade.
    I will party only after we get our equal rights
     
  6. Deno

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    many people don't have children and have to support the schools.

    If your partner simply got a job they could get then own insurance.

    staying in the closet to protect yourself against ridicule isn't discrimination, many people get bullied and harassed regardless of there sexual orientation.

    Execution now thats something to worry about. Try being a women that has been raped and she is the one on trial for adultery.
     
  7. B_Mademoiselle Rouge

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    Doesn't everyone have to pay taxes that those towards the same thing? I have a feeling when the tax laws and public education system came about that they weren't thinking of people who didn't have children or who were gay. If you are gay and have children than the blows your theory out of the water since none of it relates to being gay.

    You probably took advantage of the public school ride thanks to the tax payers. If i heard a hetero who didn't have kids bitching about the same thing my reply would be identical.

    The taxes that pay for schools is a betterment of all, including those children who are gay. So why are you bitching? I hate taxes too. I get taxed more for being married. You don't get taxed more for being gay.

    As for the insurance thing- i wasnt allowed to get on my husbands insurance until we provided a proof of marriage. My husband works for a company that has domestic partner benefits and i still couldnt be insured prior to the proof. So there was no discremination towards me as a straight or gay person, it was as an unmarried person. Health insurance companies are not necessarily discreminatory towards gay people, it's unmarried people and some do make acceptions for domestic partners.

    I get ridicule for being married young, being a redhead, being a woman with short hair, having a child (from people who hate kids), being Christian, being conservative, being from the South, being from the US. We all have crosses to bear.

    There is no doubt that gay men have the most to deal with among certain groups of people. But i guess i'm in a different world because i'd never talk snide or make comments about someone publicly for whatever reason, so i might be a little out of sync here because I'm comfortable with diversity and i forget others might act like complete asses to you.

    You guys have come a long way. I see highschool kids and emo-types who are comfortable being overtly feminine or masculine for their gender in public, they might hold hands with others of the same sex and the boys wear makeup. People might stare but this is a huge difference from the 1980's when my brother was in highschool as a closeted gay. He endured much ridicule for his orientation and he did his best to hide it. Now boys are able to come out to their family, shows are on MTV encouraging teens to do so and they are able to be openly gay in their jobs.

    I think this might be your age that your peers have a harder time accepting it. Because the kids who will be adults in the future will have less and less to complain about as we get used to it.
     
  8. DC_DEEP

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    See my post above regarding taxes and schools
    Not necessarily true. Not all jobs offer group insurance. If you are going to use this argument, do you not think it would be equitable to eliminate all dependent insurance through employers? I know you are bright enough to see that the issue is not the insurance itself, but the fact that it's offered/available to heterosexuals but not homosexuals.
    More true in childhood, perhaps. When was the last time you heard of a gang of violent queers lurking outside a sports bar, because they decided they want to "kill the next breeder that walks out"?
    What the fuck does that have to do with the OP? If you actually subscribe to the idea that "women get raped, so homosexuals should have no civil rights" you are among the most stupid organisms on earth. If you actually subscribe to the idea that "in other countries, women are accused of adultry if they get raped, so homosexuals in this country should not expect equal treatment under the law", you are just an idiot.

    If I've misunderstood your post, please feel free to clarify.
     
  9. B_Think_Kink

    B_Think_Kink New Member

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    I don't really get this thread, but things seem better than 50 years ago. In Canada we've the ability to get married to whom we want. Although workplace discrimination may stand out as the biggest issue still to come around these days.
     
  10. DC_DEEP

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    :biggrin1:A bit more progressive than "south o' the 49th."

    Federal employment non-discrimination laws and equal housing laws in this country do not apply to homosexuals. A few states have employment non-discrimination policies or equal housing laws that protect us, but most don't.

    So, if a presidentially-appointed agency head decides he doesn't like queers, he can fire them summarily - with no consequences and no recourse. Can't do that based on age, sex, race, religion, ethnicity, or marital status, but orientation is fair game.
     
  11. FuzzyKen

    FuzzyKen New Member

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    Throughout history descrimination has been alive and well. There has always been descrimination by one group of individuals against another. The sad part is that history seems to teach us nothing.

    The largest problem today is that of the religious "fundys". These individuals preach to numerous individuals each day of worship that hatred is OK, and that in their eyes or by their individual translation of the bible (or other religious document) that hatred and killing of gay people is good and endorsed by the religious diety in question. There were questions about this raised in the death/murder of Matthew Shepherd. There were some who said that the murderers had attended a homophobic sermon just before the murder happened. It was not pursued by prosecutors.

    At the same time, I am greatly bothered by things I see in the gay community even though I am in the broadest classification a member of it. I left Palm Springs, California in absolute disgust. Our former roommate is HIV sero-positive and was solicited regularly by a really weird group of people called "bug-chasers" begging to be "seeded". Most of these were 18-24 year old kids who were under some weird impression that the minute that they popped up positive that they would get all the steroids they wanted, spend their life in the gym bulking up, and the taxpayers would very quickly be paying for incredible drug costs so that they could in fact do this. As a long term HIV survivor, this made his blood boil. He would just about start screaming whenever this happened.

    There were tons of "trust-fund babies" who lived in lives of luxury yet never had a job of any kind. Again sero-positive and living it up in Palm Springs.

    A very common event in that area was to go to a supermarket and watch some guy with 20 inch biceps get out of a car with a handicapped plate or mirror hanger with no visible handicap. After time, I learned that many of these men suffered from peripheral neuropathy which is caused in some individuals by the protease/reverse transcriptease inhibitors.

    When HIV was new and we knew what caused it the Gay Community got behind stopping the spread of the disease as more and more people became ill and died. When the drugs came along to prolong people's lives it was like all responsible behavior of the younger generations coming in was forgotten. When people were dropping like flies in insecticide the younger ones were not yet there. They did not know, understand, nor would they listen to any person disagreeing with their viewpoint that "bareback sex" was just great. Some of the logic I witnessed was incredible. We now have MD's doing what is called "kitchen sinking" because many of these fellows insist on living in such a manner as to overcome the drugs, remain infectious and they either don't understand or don't care.

    We could early in this epidemic have gay pride. We, the gay men, went to the homes of those infected and we through grassroots outreach programs helped our own. We cleaned houses, we did laundry, we fixed meals and sometimes we even paid for the food to help our fellow gay men. Some of us hauled our friends to various emergency hospitals to watch E.R. and admitting people descriminate against HIV. It did not happen often, but it did happen. At that time even some of the televangelists commented on how well we cared for our own. When we made them nervous we were really doing something right. In San Diego a cleaning service was started as a grass roots effort. They started with a delapitated old Chevy Van which was stolen by car thieves. Beacause of the great work, Miller Brewing Company donated a new van to help. Gentlemen, this is what gay pride is all about.

    The general conservative heterosexual public is bombarded with exaggerations and misinformation about people like us. Some comes from conservative politicians and some comes from religious extremists. The problem is that in some cases we as a community need to really look hard at ourselves. If we do, we will find the places that the extremists get their ammunition.

    I have, when I lived in Pasadena, California held the hand of more than one friend as he slipped away. I then watched as treatments became better. I watched good decent looking men develop huge humps on the backs of their necks and grow bellies the equivalent of nine month pregnancies from the drugs trying to keep them alive.

    Those of us who have been around long enough, have memories of far worse times long past. There was Anita Bryant who, because of a singing career and very extremist religious views kept hatred against gay and lesbian individuals alive for about ten years. She was silenced as I remember when her own husband was successfully "outed". Though this seems humorous it was a bad time.

    Los Angeles Police Chief Ed Parker was a horrible homophobe and continued to raid gay bars even after he was told not to by the Los Angeles City Council. He was replaced by an incredible comic of a Police Chief by the name of Edward M. Davis who was such an idiot he became a cartoon character. He made life living hell for gay men in Hollywood for years. Abuses done by LAPD officers against gay men and complaints against them were ignored. After he retired he ran for State Assembly and then had the nerve to court the Gay vote.

    Stonewall, the Assasination of Harvey Milk by Dan White in San Francisco, I was there watching all of that history unfold as it happened and I remember it well.

    I think if we look at ourselves first, then look damn hard at our critics we can do a great deal better.

    In my lifetime I had hoped that descrimination against GLBT indidivuals would have died like the dinosaur it is and deserves to be. I do not know if I will see that now, but I really hope that we can improve things. But to make improvements from without we have to first make improvemens from within.

    We have to quit making ourselves willing targets for our critics.





     
  12. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Wow... simply amazing! :rolleyes:

    My job offers insurance, however, i can't even put my partner on it because it doesn't honor same sex domestic partnership benefits. And why shouldn't it? Between the two of us we do have the money. Instead, he's now forced to get his own coverage which is more expensive since he does freelance work. Whereas, if he was just a woman, then it wouldn't be a problem getting him on my insurance plan and we'd save money. And for what reason? Because homophobic societies think gay men are gross? How pathetic is that thinking?

    That's nonsense! There's a difference between someone not acting flamboyant in order to get through a situation where being "out and proud" could mean physical harm, and one that does it just to deal with ignorant people who find it necessary to supress others for being different. What you're basically saying is that in order for homosexuals to be accepted, they have to hide who they are in order to adapt to the closed minded people in this society. If that isn't discrimination, then I don't know what to call it?

    Or try being Matthew Shephard or many other gay men who were beaten or murdered just for being themselves by closed minded straights who thought their entire livelyhood was shattered just because another male found them to be cute. Nevermind being one of the many people who then tried to bring these people to trial for Hate Crimes and they somehow escaped with a "not guilty" verdict.

    Seriously, people need to get over themselves. Homophobes need to realize that not all (if not any) gay men are after them to violate any of their holes & crevices. By standing next to one of them, you're not going to get AIDS or become gay yourself. Your children will not become gay if they talk to someone gay, however, they may learn how to respect those who are different from them, how to accessorize and how to properly walk the runway. You have to look at yourself and see just what DO you offer to make a gay man want you to begin with. A dick and an ass? That's nice, but there's PLENTY of other gay men out there that they can freely approach about these things and not risk getting a beating. A BIG dick? How nice... plenty of gay men can find that too without the use of yours. They don't need to convert you, and for the most part they're not interested in you. If homophobes don't want to deal with gay men, then why don't THEY stay in a closet?
     
  13. B_Mademoiselle Rouge

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    I know of a lot more stories of women being brutally killed because someone didn't like that they were prostitutes than gay people. There are a few high profile cases of gays being killed. It's very upsetting to hear about them, but it in no way reflects the way hetero's as a whole feel about gay people anymore than how men feel about prostitutes.
     
  14. Guy-jin

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    We all have to pay taxes for things we don't benefit from or support. Case in point: I begrudgingly pay taxes that I know are going towards the Iraq war, which I don't support. Also, I don't have children either, but I don't mind my taxes going toward public education because it benefits my country as a whole (in fact, take that Iraq war money and put it towards public education!).

    Gays should be allowed to get married. Supposedly America decided "separate but equal" was unconstitutional decades ago, but in this day and age, a lot of people support a "separate but equal" approach to gay marriage. It's not fair, and it is unconstitutional. All I can say is that some day people in America will look back on this time and shake their heads with shame in regards to this issue, just as they do when looking back at Jim Crow laws.

    That's my sharing.
     
  15. DC_DEEP

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    When was the last time you heard of a defendent at a murder trial using the "prostitute panic defense?"

    Again, prostitutes aren't the OP topic, and it's mind-numbing when people say things like "well, more prostitutes get killed, so gay men don't have anything to complain about" or "you should be glad; in Iran, it's the death penalty." Well, I'm not in fucking Iran. I'm in a country that claims every citizen is guaranteed equal protections under the law. I never saw anything in the US Constitution that says "equal protection under the law, except for them queers."
     
  16. Guy-jin

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    Quoted for emphasis.

    Do straw man arguments piss you off as much as they piss me off?

    The fact that people actually give the "count your lucky stars" argument as an excuse for allowing bigotry in the "Land of the Free" is sickening to me.
     
  17. B_Mademoiselle Rouge

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    This has nothing to do with equal protection, people start talking about a few high profile cases as their basis for protection. Most of which occured before a huge positive shift towards orientation.

    I believe there has been a lot of advances made, and if a black person used stories from the 60's to describe the mindset of whites towards blacks today, it wouldn't be a fair example.

    I believe the people who killed gay people, as mentioned in examples above, should be made an example of in our justice system. They in no way represent the normal people in America. This post is bitching about discremination and I refuse to be lumped in with it. There are a lot of people who might not approve of gay people but would never beat them to death or shoot them.
     
  18. B_Mademoiselle Rouge

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    We all have people in our families, especially here in the South, that harbor some racist or homophobic thoughts. Hell my Great Grandma still refers to her black adopted grandson as "that colored boy" its just wrong. We have said something to her about it but honestly, i dont think she's going to change. It doesn't make it right but i seriously don't think she'd condone hanging him from a tree. We are jumping to conclusions here.

    And i'm not the one who mentioned up that you should be happy because you arent being executed. I mentioned that high profile murder cases are not reflective of mainstream society anymore than prostitutes who were murdered by men who hated them.
     
  19. D_Fiona_Farvel

    D_Fiona_Farvel Account Disabled

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    Taxation is a goood point, D.V.. In the U.S., my biggest issue is with taxation and denial of equal civil rights and access to civil services.

    I know so many people who believe these changes will come in the future and it is important to not push politicians too much on the issue. But, I would love to see a real political force and action, which includes the support of every minority group, that demands the extention of the Civil Rights Act to include GLBT, and gives deserved equal access to every civil service.

    First, wanted to write that I loved reading your post. :smile:

    I also desire an end to the illogical discrimination based upon who or how you love. But, I disagree that anyone can "quit making ourselves willing targets for our critics" - imo, they will find a reason to hate no matter what changes are made.

    As you have seen over your life, homosexuality has moved from being pathology, a sickness, to something that is just indefinably wrong. While I agree bug chasers on the extreme end are dangers to the community itself, I disagree that there should be community wide behavioral changes so someone looking in from the outside won’t be able to point and giggle or make snide remarks. I think the only way to change the perception of GLBT is to show how diverse the community is good and bad… like everyone else. :shrug:
     
  20. erratic

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    Yes, that's precisely what I said.

    Of course not! This is how flame wars start. My point was that it gets a lot worse than some of the things mentioned in the OP - not that any of those were invalid. My point was that we in the west have it pretty easy compared to a lot of people and we need to remember that. If we don't remember that we won't be watching to help others, we won't celebrate what generations have fought for, and we lose our perspective.
     
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