I agree, i did not understand this Vinyl, what do you mean ?
Discrimination against gays?
- Thread starter B_Lightkeeper
- Start date
I agree, i did not understand this Vinyl, what do you mean ?
Am I the only Gay man in the world that has NEVER been openly discriminated against? I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm 100% positive it does. Am I really that lucky? Even moving to another country into what is well known to be W.A.S.P-ish community I still have never been victimised or abused for my sexual preference. I don't know what my point is to be honest, I am just always amazed that so far my life has been incident free.
Perhaps just by being nice to people, other people really are nice to you?
I am only talking about OPEN oppression, not the stealth tax on homosexuality that seems prevelant in western cultures.
Oooooh that should slap the wasps nest firmly on the ass.
Perhaps just by being nice to people, other people really are nice to you?
I am only talking about OPEN oppression, not the stealth tax on homosexuality that seems prevelant in western cultures.
Oooooh that should slap the wasps nest firmly on the ass.
Well, what a surprise! So if it's your oppressed group who is being mistreated, you all of a sudden make good sense. If it's not a group to which you belong, they are exhibiting a "knee-jerk reaction" if they say they are unhappy about what is hideously bad treatment. And there's that word again: idiot.
B_VinylBoy
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I was being general about these things. We all know that discrimination does exist in the workplace based on sexual preference, but that also exists on many other levels as well. Same thing with personal safety. The same way a white guy wouldn't want to be caught in an Armani Suit with a briefcase looking lost on the back streets of Compton, the same goes for the gay guy who decides to wear tight jeans and a rainbow flag bandana in Mississippi during a Klan rally. I didn't elaborate on these issues because the same types of prejudices apply to just about everyone here. However, marriage is one that differs dramatically.
As for 9inchcanadian, I personally believe that for some homophobic people being nice is just not enough. Some just hate every ideal and concept of a gay person. I've been in many instances where I was the only gay male in a group of homophobic straight men and you can tell that even blinking at a person in a "non-straight way" would start a riot. Some even get into blatant, anti-gay redderick and will even talk about how they would beat the shit out of a gay guy. Meanwhile, they have no clue about my sexual orientation and they want me to give them a high five to show that I fit in. Now keep in mind, I know how to keep to myself and blend in when needed. I'll never call myself "straight acting", however, if my survival depends on it then I can fit in with the best of them. But you can understand how difficult it is for someone like me to be in these scenarios. Some people would just walk away, others would endure it just for the sake of feeling liked. And growing up in the inner city, when all you want more is just some friends to hang out with, you're sometimes forced to literally lie down with dogs just to get acceptance. Again, that's not fair. It may not be like that for everyone, and I envy those people who never had to go through this experience as much as I have. But it's not fun having to live a double life.
Dave NoCal
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A number of years ago, a straight colleague commented to me that I have a lot of courage. I was honestly perplexed and asked him what he meant. His response was something like: "You walk out of your house every day and live like everyting is normal knowing that there are people out there who want to kill you." As I took it, he wasn't talking about me personally but, rather, commenting on the burden of living sanely in conditions of oppression. We live in a situation where there are a lot of good reasons for keeping our heads down. To me, that has been a daily constraint most of my life even though I am out at work, to neighbors, friends, family, etc...
Dave
Dave
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Indeed, you could be in your position, but living in Iran, Saudi Arabia, or Syria.
:usa2: :usa: :usa1:
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You live in New York!!!!! one of the gayest places on earth. You are the only person who can change your situation. I dont't want to sound mean here but you need to change your friends and move on. At 35 your situation is frankly sad. If you are not willing to stand up and be yourself in this day and age then thousands of people that have stood up to be counted in the past have simply wasted their time. How do you know that amongst your friends there isn't gay too, or bi. Come out and face the world. If they react badly FUCK THEM. If things become violent go to the police. Life is way to short to live in the shadows.
I speak as an out gay man that has always been honest to co-workers and friends. If they dont want to associate with me then they certainly don't show it. Those that did have a problem never fronted me.
Just to clarify things Im not a violent person I am not "built" and i am never aggresive without provocation. My last "fight" was in a gay bar with some fool(i could say many worse things but he isn't worth the effort) who thought he could buy my boyfriend(don't ask) After being insulted for 10 minutes i punched him so hard he flew over the table behind him.
I digress. You need to move on. Being nice may not be enough for every situation although not putting yourself in situations that could turn ugly also helps.
Sorry if i seem to be attacking you. I really do not mean to. I just want you to be able to be honest. With yourself and the world around you.
Don't think coming out was easy for me. It wasn't. But my fears were irrational.
Get it done. You will never look back.
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That scenario I was describing was back when I was younger, in the closet, and before I lived in New York. Sorry for not mentioning that.
Thanks, MR. Consider yourself lucky, though, if your brother's room was the worst you've seen regarding sex/gender discrimination.
However, with some of the viewpoints expressed in this thread, and others, I don't think your comments about the older generations dying off is accurate. They are still teaching it to the younger ones, who will continue teaching it to future generations. Count how many have said "so what, it's worse in the middle east." The dismissive attitudes of some, and the current political climate actually encourage continued discrimination.
I'm not looking for a falling out, Tardis, I'm trying to understand. Why do you think it's OK for the laws to apply unequally based solely on orientation?
OMG, I can't believe you think that a t-shirt which you find offensive is worse than having laws passed specifically to deny equal rights to one group of people. Do you understand what the term "knee-jerk" means? You see the words "curious george" and "Obama" in the same sentence, and you assume it's a racist slur. It may well be, I don't know. I'm not willing to make that assumption.
If you are calling my reaction to laws passed to deny me legal rights "knee-jerk," you have some serious problems. And I haven't yet seen any state pass laws defining marriage as "the union between a man and woman of the same race." Tell me you don't see the difference. Please.
If someone made a t-shirt about gays that I found offensive, so what? No one has a right to freedom from being offended. Everyone in this country does, however, have a right to equal treatment under the law. But you don't see any difference, do you?
I agree, VB. Even in cases where no allegations of wrongdoing have occurred, gay teachers get fired - summarily, no questions asked. If any other minority had that happening, how fast do you think school districts would be sued?
I don't live in Iran, Saudi Arabia, or Syria. What's your point?
Rouge, Bek, and Tardis, the state in which I live passed a law two years ago that pretty much said "same-sex couples have none of the rights, protections, or benefits in any legal matters which may be construed as rights, protections, or benefits of a legal marriage, and any contractual agreements between same-sex couples which are normally considered the same as contractual agreements within a marriage are null and void." Property rights, hospital visitation and living wills, life insurance policies, last will and testament, survivor benefits, community property - all worthless here; the state can seize any of our assets with impunity if either of us dies. You don't see why that bothers some of us?
In an earlier posting I made comments on several issues:
I referred to "making ourselves a target".
When you want to "take someone or some group down" you find the things that individual or group does that you can use to "inflame" society as a whole.
The first thing to consider is how gay pride parades are televised. If there is fair and equal reporting you get a parade with people showing pride over issues and what has been accomplished.
Depending on the affiliate director Fox News always makes it's focus the leather or drag acts even though there may only be one leather or drag act in the entire parade. These people deliberately will focus on any element that will get that station or news ratings. As many celebrities know negative publicity can be as good as positive at getting their name or face in front of the public. With the gay community conservative individuals always focus on things that give us negative publicity. Leather or drag have both fans and detractors within the gay community itself. It however is easy among straight right-wing moralists to get a rise by televisiong things like this as they aren inflamatory to these people.
Very rarely will you see any news network covering Gay Rodeo as an example because you see gay men doing bull riding, chute dogging, calf-roping and other masculine activities. How can you place a negative spin on this other than with a handfull of animal activists. Rodeo is an American Tradition. Throughout the United States and in many foreign countries there are gay car clubs. Some of the restorations are beautiful. For years many members of a group called Great Autos of Yesteryear furnished cars and drove celebrities down Hollywood Blvd for the Hollywood Christmas Parade/Santa Claus Lane Parade. Again, no publicity for this becuse it was a man's activity that could have portrayed gay people as men with normal male interests. The few times that Bob Eubanks interviewed people on the classic cars members of Great Autos who furnished numerous cars were purposely overlooked to favor some guy from San Bernardino with a rumbe seat Model-A.
My point in my earlier writing at mentioning "bug chasers" and other abuses we have seen in our own community is that if we start policing the "idiotic few" amongst ourselves as we did when the HIV crisis started we make the negative target items a great deal more difficult to find by the common man.
As we all know Fred Phelps with his "ministry of lunacy" has given sermons declaring that the average gay man ingests feces several times per day. It is granted that Phelps is of questionable mental health, but, unless we as a group go on the attack towards out and out falsehoods we are as guilty as the perpetrators of the crime.
Unlike President Bush I remember the saying: Fool me once...shame on you, Fool me twice....shame on me.
In Los Angeles as the gay community began to emerge many years ago here is another example. The Gay and Lesbian Community Services Center had appointed a former male model by the name of Steve Schulte to do the PR work. Steve had been a centerfold in some publication, was a great speaker, knowledgeable, and did not fit into any gay stereotypes.
Steve Schulte was incredible. In the 1970's Los Angeles news commentator Tom Snyder had a late night show called "The Tomorrow Show". Schulte was being interviewed and and absolutely made Tom Snyder look like an idiot. (Not hard to do by the way...)
Schulte was annoyed when Snyder tried to make his own sexuality an issue when he (Snyder) learned that Schulte was working with young hustlers that used to inhabit Hollywood. Snyder in a moment of incredible stupidy asked Schulte of he was a "practicing homosexual". An annoyed Schulte looked at Snyder and replied:
"I am 31 now, I figured out I was gay when I was about 15-years-old, let's see, that is 16 years......No, after sixteen years I don't think I need any practice at it."
After the Snyder interview, the news media stayed away from Schulte because he did not give them what they (the news media) wanted. They sought out Morris Kight. Morris was a brilliant and knowledgeable man. The main problem with Kight as a spokesperson was that he was an extremely stereotypical effeminate man who had a lisping effeminite voice and mannerisms. He often had fingernails that could be measured in inches and even on occasion painted them with nail polish while in male clothing. He would very successfully reinforce negative stereotypes. If Morris Kight had been brilliant in regards to realizing what was happening and that he was being "used" he would have kept his yap shut and referred things back to Schulte. He was used in the worst ways. He could have written Schulte's speeches, but he was a horrendous negative on camera at the time when the world was just being introduced to the fact that people like this existed.
In Riverside County, as I may have already stated, the Medical System has been strained to the breaking point. Most of the MD's treating HIV and accepting Medi-Cal now have closed practices. Care is being referred to a facility in Moreno Valley which is nearly 70 miles from the Palm Springs area. There are incredible delays for men really needing care.
In that area HIV is no longer the major issue. Hepatitis and more common Venerial Diseases are running rampant. The varieties now there are resistent to conventional treatment and sometimes take months to eradicate. Most of the time the hepatitis is a new and permanent addition.
I knew a wonderful fellow who had only one problem when he relocated to Palm Springs from a small town in Washington State and that was alcoholism. Within one hear he had sero-converted to positive, was positive for hepatitis, positive for herpes, and under treatment for both syphillis and the clap at the same time. Though his degree of intoxication may have made things questionable, this fellow had no memory of ever being told by any bed partner that they were infected with anything. The other question that could be raised because of intoxication is how many individuals did this guy infect himself before he discovered his own problems.
Again, the community has to look at what it has done to many of it's own members by not self-policing.
I have lived long enough to see how great the gay community can be when grass roots efforts in the major cities take hold. It has been done in the past, it can be done again. New HIV infection and transmission of other things could be greatly reduced if not in some cases eliminated if the efforts were sufficient and the "fantasy boys" were exposed.
In many gay communities now you can hear HIV sero-positive individuals talking about there being no danger of cross infection between HIV strains. It is unfortunate that most MD's and the CDC disagrees with them. There are more that will say that there is no danger of transmission of "anything" from activities such as "water sports" or SCAT. Again, the MD's and CDC again disagree with them, but this minority of people without sanctions against them and correct information pushed hard keep pushing their personal adjendas.
I have watched numerous evolutions within the gay community over the past three decades. I hope that I see another one soon. I would hope that the next re-invention would be more geared towrards people taking responsibility for their own actions and caring a great deal more about their fellow man
I referred to "making ourselves a target".
When you want to "take someone or some group down" you find the things that individual or group does that you can use to "inflame" society as a whole.
The first thing to consider is how gay pride parades are televised. If there is fair and equal reporting you get a parade with people showing pride over issues and what has been accomplished.
Depending on the affiliate director Fox News always makes it's focus the leather or drag acts even though there may only be one leather or drag act in the entire parade. These people deliberately will focus on any element that will get that station or news ratings. As many celebrities know negative publicity can be as good as positive at getting their name or face in front of the public. With the gay community conservative individuals always focus on things that give us negative publicity. Leather or drag have both fans and detractors within the gay community itself. It however is easy among straight right-wing moralists to get a rise by televisiong things like this as they aren inflamatory to these people.
Very rarely will you see any news network covering Gay Rodeo as an example because you see gay men doing bull riding, chute dogging, calf-roping and other masculine activities. How can you place a negative spin on this other than with a handfull of animal activists. Rodeo is an American Tradition. Throughout the United States and in many foreign countries there are gay car clubs. Some of the restorations are beautiful. For years many members of a group called Great Autos of Yesteryear furnished cars and drove celebrities down Hollywood Blvd for the Hollywood Christmas Parade/Santa Claus Lane Parade. Again, no publicity for this becuse it was a man's activity that could have portrayed gay people as men with normal male interests. The few times that Bob Eubanks interviewed people on the classic cars members of Great Autos who furnished numerous cars were purposely overlooked to favor some guy from San Bernardino with a rumbe seat Model-A.
My point in my earlier writing at mentioning "bug chasers" and other abuses we have seen in our own community is that if we start policing the "idiotic few" amongst ourselves as we did when the HIV crisis started we make the negative target items a great deal more difficult to find by the common man.
As we all know Fred Phelps with his "ministry of lunacy" has given sermons declaring that the average gay man ingests feces several times per day. It is granted that Phelps is of questionable mental health, but, unless we as a group go on the attack towards out and out falsehoods we are as guilty as the perpetrators of the crime.
Unlike President Bush I remember the saying: Fool me once...shame on you, Fool me twice....shame on me.
In Los Angeles as the gay community began to emerge many years ago here is another example. The Gay and Lesbian Community Services Center had appointed a former male model by the name of Steve Schulte to do the PR work. Steve had been a centerfold in some publication, was a great speaker, knowledgeable, and did not fit into any gay stereotypes.
Steve Schulte was incredible. In the 1970's Los Angeles news commentator Tom Snyder had a late night show called "The Tomorrow Show". Schulte was being interviewed and and absolutely made Tom Snyder look like an idiot. (Not hard to do by the way...)
Schulte was annoyed when Snyder tried to make his own sexuality an issue when he (Snyder) learned that Schulte was working with young hustlers that used to inhabit Hollywood. Snyder in a moment of incredible stupidy asked Schulte of he was a "practicing homosexual". An annoyed Schulte looked at Snyder and replied:
"I am 31 now, I figured out I was gay when I was about 15-years-old, let's see, that is 16 years......No, after sixteen years I don't think I need any practice at it."
After the Snyder interview, the news media stayed away from Schulte because he did not give them what they (the news media) wanted. They sought out Morris Kight. Morris was a brilliant and knowledgeable man. The main problem with Kight as a spokesperson was that he was an extremely stereotypical effeminate man who had a lisping effeminite voice and mannerisms. He often had fingernails that could be measured in inches and even on occasion painted them with nail polish while in male clothing. He would very successfully reinforce negative stereotypes. If Morris Kight had been brilliant in regards to realizing what was happening and that he was being "used" he would have kept his yap shut and referred things back to Schulte. He was used in the worst ways. He could have written Schulte's speeches, but he was a horrendous negative on camera at the time when the world was just being introduced to the fact that people like this existed.
In Riverside County, as I may have already stated, the Medical System has been strained to the breaking point. Most of the MD's treating HIV and accepting Medi-Cal now have closed practices. Care is being referred to a facility in Moreno Valley which is nearly 70 miles from the Palm Springs area. There are incredible delays for men really needing care.
In that area HIV is no longer the major issue. Hepatitis and more common Venerial Diseases are running rampant. The varieties now there are resistent to conventional treatment and sometimes take months to eradicate. Most of the time the hepatitis is a new and permanent addition.
I knew a wonderful fellow who had only one problem when he relocated to Palm Springs from a small town in Washington State and that was alcoholism. Within one hear he had sero-converted to positive, was positive for hepatitis, positive for herpes, and under treatment for both syphillis and the clap at the same time. Though his degree of intoxication may have made things questionable, this fellow had no memory of ever being told by any bed partner that they were infected with anything. The other question that could be raised because of intoxication is how many individuals did this guy infect himself before he discovered his own problems.
Again, the community has to look at what it has done to many of it's own members by not self-policing.
I have lived long enough to see how great the gay community can be when grass roots efforts in the major cities take hold. It has been done in the past, it can be done again. New HIV infection and transmission of other things could be greatly reduced if not in some cases eliminated if the efforts were sufficient and the "fantasy boys" were exposed.
In many gay communities now you can hear HIV sero-positive individuals talking about there being no danger of cross infection between HIV strains. It is unfortunate that most MD's and the CDC disagrees with them. There are more that will say that there is no danger of transmission of "anything" from activities such as "water sports" or SCAT. Again, the MD's and CDC again disagree with them, but this minority of people without sanctions against them and correct information pushed hard keep pushing their personal adjendas.
I have watched numerous evolutions within the gay community over the past three decades. I hope that I see another one soon. I would hope that the next re-invention would be more geared towrards people taking responsibility for their own actions and caring a great deal more about their fellow man
B_Think_Kink
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That's lame, our rules say we can't (or aren't supposed to) discriminate based on orientation.
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DC, it would really piss me off to be in your situation. I can't even begin to understand not having some of the rights that i completely take for granted.
Being a married woman i know where my husbands life insurance will go, i signed the papers. But it never dawned on me how all of that would work with a gay couple. Are unmarried couples able to pass on their assets to a live in partner? Are you able to be a gay couple on the same bank account?
Sorry i have a zillion questions...
Being a married woman i know where my husbands life insurance will go, i signed the papers. But it never dawned on me how all of that would work with a gay couple. Are unmarried couples able to pass on their assets to a live in partner? Are you able to be a gay couple on the same bank account?
Sorry i have a zillion questions...
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I have a hard time reading a font this small. I'd love to take the time to read it but i have a hard time with the regular 10pt. What i can skim it seems quite enlightening.
Through a well written Will, you can leave anything to anyone. The Will can be challenged, however.
My dad had a best friend friend who was gay, and died of cancer. The guy left his estate, roughly 10 million, to the two people who cared for him in the end of his life: his male lover and the lover's brother. The friend's family was given nothing because they never visited him or showed any interest in his gay lifestyle.
The male lover was about 30 years younger than the deceased, and the family was outraged that he and his brother would get the family fortune that they had assumed would go to them. They hired a good lawyer and a couple private detectives, who interviewed folks all over town to build a case that the deceased was mentally incompetant...and had been influenced by his younger lover and the lover's brother in leaving his estate to them.
It was a scare tactic, and it worked. The lover and brother forked over half the estate to the family members...just to avoid the embarassing scrutiny of the investigation. Sad story, but true.
That's the thing, MR, most people take for granted that laws are the same in all states. They are not - not even close. And these are not trivial matters, either. The sad thing is, the majority of this country's population accepts this blatant, government-institutionalized discrimination for two reasons: it doesn't affect them, and it's good to have at least one group that it's still legal to discriminate against.
Questions are fine, hon. That's how we learn. Tawse and I were just talking about similar issues a couple of nights ago. Even though we want to have each other as beneficiaries on our life insurance, we decided that (at least as long as we live here) it wouldn't be the best plan. The way Virginia law stands, either of his children or any of my siblings could dispute it if one of us died; and a simple challenge is all it would take. There would be no recourse. Probate would be simple: regardless of a will, regardless of signatures on an insurance policy, family (even estranged family) would trump the lover. I don't know about bank accounts, we do not have any comingled accounts. All our finances are separate. As for live-in partners, I'm sure it would be at the discretion of the state, but the state would probably leave some wiggle room for heterosexual live-ins. You know, common-law and all. And the legislature was cunning with this one. The original drafts specified that it was intended against same-sex couples, but they realized the legal problems that would cause. So they simply left it at "unmarried persons" but still have the option to rule for or against.
And in my jurisdiction, a lover has the least rights and influence. Honestly, all that would have to happen would be for a family member to say "I know he left everything to DC, but I want it." And the courts would give it to them. Things are probably different in your jurisdiction, though.[/quote]
DC_______ i understand exactly what you are saying, honestly i do and i agree with some of it again being honest. Thing is sometimes conversations are best face to face as written word can have its own interpretation to the reader.
I agree equal rights are for everybody, no matter what,maybe it is a minority that spoil what people have fought for, gay, black etc, just that my opinion is and not to scorn, discredit anyone is that as a gayman i don't always agree with how it is done, i agree with Ken's message about drag/leather and not using the rodeo's etc and about the publicity people get in drag, but hey, if that is how the gay community wants to get their point across to make a difference then who am i to say different ?, but i don't have to like it, but will have to lump it i guess.
Been a very interesting thread and a passionate one, Although i am not the OP (where is the little stirrer) btw, causes all this and leaves us to it lol:wink: Thanks everyone for the views/opinions although i have a feeling this Thread is going to :biggrin1:be around a while.
I agree equal rights are for everybody, no matter what,maybe it is a minority that spoil what people have fought for, gay, black etc, just that my opinion is and not to scorn, discredit anyone is that as a gayman i don't always agree with how it is done, i agree with Ken's message about drag/leather and not using the rodeo's etc and about the publicity people get in drag, but hey, if that is how the gay community wants to get their point across to make a difference then who am i to say different ?, but i don't have to like it, but will have to lump it i guess.
Been a very interesting thread and a passionate one, Although i am not the OP (where is the little stirrer) btw, causes all this and leaves us to it lol:wink: Thanks everyone for the views/opinions although i have a feeling this Thread is going to :biggrin1:be around a while.
(thanks for the concilliatory opening!)
Even at that - it still doesn't matter if people are embarrassed or offended by gay pride parades or drag shows. Regardless of anyone's feelings toward ANY minority group or subgroup, it is just simply unethical and immoral to advocate treating them differently under the law. I don't want special rights, I just want equal rights... all or none. Consenting adults should be allowed to marry whomever they choose, unqualified, or none should. Insurance benefits should be extended to all employees, or none.
Lex
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- Lex,
QFT.
I have been fortunate to work at two places where insurance benefits are afforded to gay couples (and even unmarried, straight couples who cohabitate).
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