Disgruntled former posters!

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wvalady1968: Mindseye,

Did you say that you've devised a method whereby we may block the posts of another poster?

If so, would you tell me how that's done.

Thanks
Allie
 
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mindseye: [quote author=wvalady1968 link=board=meetgreet;num=1068222403;start=20#20 date=11/08/03 at 16:20:12]Mindseye,

Did you say that you've devised a method whereby we may block the posts of another poster?

If so, would you tell me how that's done.

Thanks
Allie[/quote]


Certainly -- go into your profile (the light blue "Profile" link at the top of the page), and scroll down. The ignore list is down there -- put the usernames you wish to block, one name per line, and save the profile.
 
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wvalady1968: There are a couple of neat things you've added there! Thanks!
 
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HUMONGOUS: your views are respected mindseye--thank you for your reply---it was appreciated
 
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longtimelurker: As Max has said (via Mindseye) on another thread, the IMs weren't the reason for him and Sammygirly leaving. The reason was the tacit acknowledgement that paedophillic writing (amongst other things) were acceptable to the board (which I personally do not feel is 'massive censorship' by any means).

Granted, this hoo-ha was instigated by a certain board member, however, it was the acceptance of any form of questionably legal (maybe not in the US, but certainly in other countries) material that caused the aforementioned to leave.

Besides this, it was not just Sammy and Max that left, there are a fairly large number of board members (many of whom were significant contributors to the board) that also felt that this was not acceptable to their own personal ethical guidelines.
 
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mindseye: [quote author=longtimelurker link=board=meetgreet;num=1068222403;start=20#24 date=11/10/03 at 11:56:53]questionably legal (maybe not in the US, but certainly in other countries) material[/quote]

Out of curiosity, why do people even think the laws of other countries should be relevant here?

Perhaps Mark should also require that the ladies of this board all wear burkas? Or perhaps he should ban women entirely?
 

Max

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[quote author=mindseye link=board=meetgreet;num=1068222403;start=20#25 date=11/10/03 at 12:41:10]

Out of curiosity, why do people even think the laws of other countries should be relevant here?
[/quote]

They are very relevant to those of us who are governed by them, even if the website itself isn't.
 
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longtimelurker: [quote author=mindseye link=board=meetgreet;num=1068222403;start=20#25 date=11/10/03 at 12:41:10]

Out of curiosity, why do people even think the laws of other countries should be relevant here?

Perhaps Mark should also require that the ladies of this board all wear burkas?  Or perhaps he should ban women entirely?[/quote]

Now that is a bit of reductio ad absurdum (forgive me if my latin isn't 100%) - to use the example quoted, I doubt the women in question would be allowed to use the internet (let alone view a site such as this).

As someone else has mentioned (can't remember whom off-hand) there are laws on a state level which make such claims of legality fairly dubious. For a site which is aimed to be inclusive in nature it does seem common-sense not to tread on dubious legal ground which may alienate a large number of people out of legal necessity - granted you don't have to cater for all, but I kinda thought that that was one of the basic principles here.
 
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huge_cock_have_pic: To mindseye:

Obviously the laws of foreign countries matter to those who view this site from those countries.

Second, you use the federal statutes as your guide. You better remember that this site is just as accountable to the state statutes and local ordinances, as are the people who view it.

Just because the federal statutes might allow it, state statutes and local ordinances can be stricter. The federal law in this case is a floor and not a ceiling.

Your misplaced ideals could get a lot of people in trouble.
 
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mindseye: My 'misplaced ideals' don't set policy for the site. It's not my site.

Welcome back.
 
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huge_cock_have_pic: I'm back for now. We'll see. As much as this site has followed its misplaced sense of what freedom of speech and censorship is, it owes its members a duty to do what it can to protect their interests.
 
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pghcyclist:
Second, you use the federal statutes as your guide. You better remember that this site is just as accountable to the state statutes and local ordinances, as are the people who view it.

Just because the federal statutes might allow it, state statutes and local ordinances can be stricter. The federal law in this case is a floor and not a ceiling.

I'm only half following this. Since I'm relatively new here, I don't understand all the issues involved. That said (putting on ACLU hat) everything that is text on this forum is protected speech by the federal constitution, which does trump state and local laws. If it is a (text) story, it is "art" or "literature", which is clearly protected. If it is in a non-story forum, it is "educational". It doesn't matter if you are talking about sex with animals, underage kids, or whatever, as long as you are only talking, you can't be criminally prosecuted for it. It is protected free speech.

Pictures of kids having underage sex, or pictures of an underage kid having sex with an adult are illegal (because, at some point, someone actually did have sex with a minor in volation of the law and probably the minor's rights). From what I have read, the question was about a story, and there should be no criminal legal problem with that in the United States.

Scott
 
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huge_cock_have_pic: Sorry Scott, but case law goes against you. Stories can be and have been construed as pornography. As important is the fact that these stories, have and will continue to stir law enforcement interest. The reputations, careers and lives of the members of this site are at risk and the administrators of this site have an obligation to the members to protect them. These types of stories are banned from hard core porn sites for this same reason. They should also be banned from this site.
 
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mindseye: Scott,

As a fellow ACLU member, I thank you for backing me up.
 
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huge_cock_have_pic: He may have backed you up, but he and you are still wrong on the law. You need to comment about that as well as the fact that these stories do jeapordize the members of this site in the eyes of law enforcement agencies.

Just arguing, but let's say you are correct on the law (which you are not) you are only telling half the story if you say, "don't worry, US law allows this." and remain silent on the fact that these stories draw the attention of law enforcement agencies because rightfully or wrongfully, law enforcement will look into the people on this site because they in a crass way think, where there is smoke, there is fire.
 

D_Martin van Burden

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Just because some "tories can be and have been construed as pornography," there is insufficient logical weight to merit some sort of totalitarian model for dealing with each and every act of expression on the LPSG.

Law enforcement most certainly does not have a precise, thorough, and consistent set of guidelines with which to follow up such investigations. On the one hand, if the site (which it doesn't) tolerates picture and video transmission of children engaged in sexual behavior against their consent, Mark would have a lot of explaining to do in the eyes of the law.

But Mark has clearly argued on several occasions that such acts are intolerable and would merit expulsion from the board, posts and all.

On the other hand, law enforcement still carries a burden of proof in establishing how a story or post on the LPSG has contributed in some way to a discernible act of child pornography or other illegal behavior. I don't think a "passive transmission" of medium to mentality would hold in a legal argument. Humans are (by and large) rational creatures that exercise some form of discretionary decision, choice, and autonomy in their actions. God forbid that someone would willingly violate the rights of a minor, but if that were the case, it seems insufficient to locate all the blame on the story qua literature itself or on the author for posting it. You have yet to convince me how a story can illicit such subsequent actions or how a case could be made against someone based on that flimsy evidence.

You used the word "some" earlier. "Some" most certainly isn't "every" or "all" cases, and "some" most certainly doesn't carry enough argumentative power to merit the depth of investigation you suggest. Give me a compelling argument that would prove otherwise (as given from someone who is knowledgeable and thoroughly understands the law in both its interpretation and its practice), and I might change my mind. Until then, Mark has already sought legal consultation on the matter, and his lawyer seems to agree that some members are perceiving too great a risk.

That said, we're just an online forum, man, and that's all. To make heavy-handed arguments that suggest an obligation to protect interests and personal careers seems highly unfair to (1) the administration, (2) the people who don't have such interests and careers to protect, and (3) to people who feel that they have to censor themselves or to halt their participation because they wonder to what extent their opinions could get them in jail or worse.

Even the language in your posts have only suggested, at best, that we could be at risk as an Internet forum because we could potentially post on topics and ideas that could be misconstrued and taken out of context. That's a lot of conditional information, is it not?
 

D_Martin van Burden

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Let's just be honest and admit that there is little way around a lot of potentially sticky situations with this group.

For example, because this site was once considered "adult" in nature, then we had to impose an age limit. No member could be under the age of 18 or 21 depending on your jurisdiction. We later scrapped that rule because younger people have a right to know information about sexuality, pubesence, their bodies, etc. Provided that it's done in a tactful manner, there's nothing wrong with a high school kid comparing stats with other members, asking questions about his first excursions into sex, or wondering how he can gain access to contraceptions once he's firmly established, to himself, that he's ready for action. Hell, I just discussed that at a conference last week. Youths aren't getting adequate information in sex education, and while political and religious agendas push abstinence (not that there's a thing wrong it in itself), abstinence-only measures are keeping kids less informed and knowledgeable about what to expect and how to deal with sexual urges to explore.

We're not trafficking photos, videos, or other explicit materials. I think we're at greatest risk with the banner ads featured discreetly at the top of the page (Adultvideoclubs.com, for example), but it is self-understood that Mark's got to come up with the ad revenue to help defray costs for the site somehow. I don't know how the numbers look, but if officials could determine that a significant number of underage members are "snared" by these ads, I think that's as bad as the legalities can get. Until people start writing destructive fantasies and posting kiddie porn pics, again, it's not a problem.

We should protect interests, but at the same time, we have only a degree of control and influence via our participation on the site. Moderators and administration are the most "responsible" people on the site, just to make sure that thread activity isn't going on the far end of risqué, and I think we're doing a good job. Poor Pete beat himself up over a fictional story that could be taken the wrong way; that's a strong testament to his willingness to protect people.

But hey, at one point, you're a lawyer who seemed content enough with his exhibitionistic tendencies to display a penis picture in your profile. Anyone who clicked on the link provided in your profile could see it, minor or not. And if you kept it up in your profile, are we responsible for your decision to take and/or post the pic? Are we responsible for how your fellow attorneys may react if they find out that, yeah, that's your dick on the Web? In any case, these are personal responsibilities. It would be ludicrous to assume that free speech (limited to and realized upon the LPSG.org domain exclusively) in some way condones greater social problems like exploitation, devaluation of women in pornography, child pornography, and so forth.

Of course, I think we all understood that this site has the potential to generate some serious "adult-"natured discussions and that we had to be okay with that at some point in order to participate fully. No offense, but I knew coming in that dicks were the predominant topic of discussion (though the emphasis has shifted, thankfully), that some guys might IM me 'cause they know my measurement and I'd have to deal with that, and that some people are into stuff (like BDSM) that really doesn't vibe with me. I had to put all those discomforts aside to be a part of this group, and I don't think that's an unrealistic expectation.

All I know is, it's difficult to "get past" this schism issue of last week if we keep harping about it over and over again. I'm with Pecker, man. Shut up and stay; shut up and leave. Until we start pouring in money to finance the group, we really don't have a right to tell Mark how to run things. And if his methodology is enough for a court to step in and to start charging folks with criminal activity, well, I'll worry about that when it happens.
 
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pghcyclist:
Sorry Scott, but case law goes against you. Stories can be and have been construed as pornography.

The first amendment protects any speech that has "journalistic, artistic, scientific, or literary" merit. Child pornography, in particular, is a crime "to ameliorate its harm to children". I find it hard to comprehend how a ficticious story involving non-existent children harms anyone.

I would be very interested in the case law that you cite where text-only stories were construed to be pornography.

As important is the fact that these stories, have and will continue to stir law enforcement interest. The reputations, careers and lives of the members of this site are at risk and the administrators of this site have an obligation to the members to protect them.

This is an entirely different issue than whether someone can be convicted of a crime for trafficking in (child) pornography for stories posted here. Law enforcement does lots of things that can cause any person problems once the interest of law enforcement is aroused.

These types of stories are banned from hard core porn sites for this same reason. They should also be banned from this site.

As I said, I've only half followed this argument. But before anything gets banned, I'd hope the moderators come up with some criteria for deciding what is appropriate and what is not. Arguments that "other sites do it" and "I know it when I see it" probably aren't good enough.

Scott
 
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pghcyclist:
Let's just be honest and admit that there is little way around a lot of potentially sticky situations with this group.

DeeBlackThorne, you make a lot of good points. But I do want to back up huge_cock_have_pic on a number of topics. If law enforcement becomes interested in you and finds this group on your computer, you could have problems. It is also possible that they might (rightly or wrongly) track some "pornography" to this site and begin an investigation. While I don't think criminal charges have much merit, I think a civil case is a lot stronger. I can imagine any number of scenerios where the maintainers of this site get sued in a civil court for something here. While these maintainers might eventually win, it is not a pleasant experience to be sued.

Dee... is right that there are many things going on here. As a discussion forum that seeks to educate people, there is clearly first amendment protection. The stories section is something different. The avatars (especially the nude ones) are also problematic (especially if someone reads this group at work and someone claims sexual harassment).

The safest thing to do would be to take this group down. However, I doubt anyone wants to see that happen. There is risk in the world, and the real question is how to minimize your individidual risk and understand the risks you are taking.

Scott
 
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mindseye: [quote author=pghcyclist link=board=meetgreet;num=1068222403;start=20#37 date=11/10/03 at 17:00:29]I would be very interested in the case law that you cite where text-only stories were construed to be pornography.[/quote]

Fanny Hill, 1821? :)

The case law I've found on the subject, I've posted to a thread called "Censorship" on the Et Cetera Et Cetera board.