Dispirited U.S. Gays Choosing Canada

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by MisterMark, Nov 10, 2004.

  1. MisterMark

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    From Toronto's Globe and Mail:

    By MARINA JIMÉNEZ
    Wednesday, November 10, 2004 - Page A11

    They're calling it the gay drain. Hundreds of well-heeled gay and lesbian lawyers, professors, educators and film directors from the U.S. are immigrating to Canada, drawn by the country's recognition of same-sex rights, unions and benefits.

    More...

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Art...l/?query=marina
     
  2. KinkGuy

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    So I am totally fucked. Don't have the money to go :( I just hope the containment facility I wind up in is someplace warm and sunny and guess I won't be taking my male partner of 8 years with me either. That would defeat the whole purpose of their societal cleansing project, wouldn't it. :ph34r:


    "[W]hat troubled me this past Wednesday was my feeling that this election was tipped because of an outpouring of support for George W. Bush by people who don't just favour different polices from me - they favor a whole different kind of America from me. We don't just disagree on what America should be doing; we disagree on what America is." - Thomas L. Friedman, Nov. 7, 2004, NY Times syndicated columnist
     
  3. oldbodybuilder2004

    oldbodybuilder2004 New Member

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    Hi:
    Maybe it's just a well my gayness is still in the closet. Have gottenalongwith it for over 30 years.So I don't mind. But it is too darn cold in Canada. :rolleyes:
     
  4. Imported

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    girlfunk55: Well, you have no fewer rights than you ever did. What bothers you isn't that the government is making things worse, it's just that it isn't changing anything from the way it's always been. So your objection isn't that it's radical, it's that it's old-fashioned.
     
  5. KinkGuy

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    You are very wrong girlfunk. In several states after last tuesday, we have a whole lot less. Did you know that in two of the states who passed anti-faggot marriage legislation last Tuesday, that it is now ILLEGAL for many institutions, both private and public to offer domestic partnership benefits such as health insurance? Thousands of gay people who are currently insured under domestic partnership benefits offered by universities, city and state governments, private industry will no longer have benefits because companies and institutions are now PROHIBITED from offering those benefits as of either Dec. 1 or January 1st, 2005. This isn't a "radical objection".....it's the elimination of a segment of our population through legislation. This is the first time in our nations history that laws have been passed to EXCLUDE a specific populace. Ever heard of civil rights?

    If it doesn't have an effect on you, personally, it doesn't matter? The incroachment upon the civil rights of a countries citizens affects everyone. Even you.
     
  6. Pecker

    Pecker Retired Moderator
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    How tragic that so many are self-exiling. Canada's gain will be the USA's loss.

    Damn you Aldous Huxley.
     
  7. BobLeeSwagger

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    No offense to our Canadian friends, but leaving the United States just because you disagree with the president is very cowardly and pathetic. Every person that leaves increases Bush's majority by one.
     
  8. madame_zora

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    Aloofman, I disagree with you there. Leaving something you object to is not cowardly, but a statement of principles. I applaud those who choose to express themselves in whatever way they see fit, I may choose to do so myself, and I'm NOT gay. I DO NOT wish to live in a repressive environment, and I don't have to just to save face with anyone! I tried to stay and make it better after four years of policies and procedures I strongly object to, but I don't owe anyone four more! If the primary problem is one of fundamental differences, maybe it is I who just doesn't belong. My choice, not yours.

    I haven't read much from ANY other country that doesn't scorn bush, and only half of the voters here support him- no one knows how the non-voters feel. He has the proven support of 25% (approx) of the American public and not much else worldwide- not a good argument for following him, IMHO.

    Legislation has already taken place to retract rights that gays formerly had- I would have vehemently protested retracting rights for blacks during the 60's, even though I'm not black. Losing civil rights for ANYONE is abhorrent to me, and a sure sign of my country becomming something I don't want to participate in or be affiliated with, it makes me feel filthy. I believe in the idea of American freedom, but not in the practices of this administration. I don't know if I will be able to disengage myself from it satisfactorily (to myself) while remaining here, and if I can't, I will remove myself from it to remain true to my own goals.

    As a first-generation child of immigrants, I have been in awe most of my life of the fact that I was born here instead of India where my freedoms would have been significantly less. But now I have to consider- substitute "nigger" or "faggot" for "brown people" and I'd have to admit, I wouldn't appreciate the treatment they are getting and it's just NOT OKAY just because it's not me.
     
  9. KinkGuy

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    Not speaking for everyone, but this goes way beyond just leaving America in a snit. How would you feel if overnight, the health insurance you provide for your family were gone...and termed illegal? Your partner is lying in the hospital dying and you can't even visit them, much less make sure any of their prior decisions regarding care are followed. You and your "wife" live in and jointly own your home. You get hit by a bus and it is against the law for her to inherit the property, instead she is forced out onto the street because your second cousin twice removed wants the property. She can't be the beneficiary of your life insurance. It is against the law for her to immigrate to the U.S. openly as straight and can be deported if they choose. It is against the law to immigrate if you are HIV positive.
    It's legal for you to be denied housing, be fired from your job, denied legal recourse and can't even die in military service....all because you are straight.

    Over 1,100+ other automatic benefits automatically afforded to married heterosexual couples, do not exist for gay citizens. After Nov. 4, the few we did have, have been removed in 11 states, with more, I am sure, to follow.

    It's not "cowardly and pathetic" that we are increasingly becoming fearful of our government. It's not that we just "disgree" with the president. With the stroke of a pen I could lose my health care tomorrow. Try living with that fear alone.

    I for one am NOT A COWARD....I am scared, for all the faggots, all the people of color, women.....all of us. God Bless America. I hope.
     
  10. jonb

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    Except for every other time laws have been passed to exclude a specific populace. And I don't think this forum has enough space to list all said laws.
     
  11. madame_zora

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    Well, I think it's pretty hard for a white, str8 male to really understand how it is for everyone else, particularly if the male in question is not himself an asshole. For anyone of any ethnicity that shows in skin color, for women, for gays- there is often a feeling of not QUITE being equal, other times there is outright discrimination. I am amazed at some of my causasian friends who flat out don't believe me that I've been called the "N" word, even though it's happened as recently as this year! They're not prejudiced, so they think that stuff is over. I wish that were true. If you've never lived with the fear of not being able to get a job, keep a job, get credit, healthcare, be paid equally, be judged on merit more than appearance, then how could you possibly know what impact that would have on your life? If we are heading into a place where only the needs of the mainstream are addressed, or the minority actually, then how can you NOT expect everyone else to be inflamed? While straight white males may represent about 25% of the total population, they still occupy probably upwards of 80% of the higher political positions. There is little wonder why losing even a small amount of ground for the rest of us is a huge ordeal. Yes, we were heading someplace better than this under the Clinton administration, now it's almost acceptable again for people to be racists (we were almost at a place where those ideas were shameful and people who held them were seen as clowns), women's issues are seen as "fringe issues" even though there are more women than men in this country, and gay people have very little hope at all of any type of equality. I wonder how long it will take to even get back to where we once were, let alone make any kind of advances.
     
  12. jonb

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    There are lots of variants of the "N" word. I've heard prairie nigger before. And wood nigger.

    I guess all that inbreeding made the racists lose their originality.
     
  13. madame_zora

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    And don't forget "sand nigger" for all of us middle easterners....
     
  14. jonb

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    Um, I don't think India's in the Middle East. My map specifically refers to the Arabian peninsula as the Middle East.
     
  15. lacsap1

    lacsap1 New Member

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    Citizenship and Immigration Canada/Citoyenneté et Immigration Canada
    Application for Citizenship” form


    If you are interested in immigrating to Canada, you have a number of options when applying for permanent residence status.

    We ask you kindly to take this short quiz to determine if you are the right person for Canada and know about the rights and responsibilities of Canadian citizenship. Please answer this Permanent Residence Applications request by Y (=yes) or N (=no).

    Do you believe:

    Y/N The United States should get out of the United Nations, but it must go to war with Iraq to enforce United Nations’ resolutions.

    Y/N Trading with Cuba is wrong because they are communists, but trading with China promotes international harmony.

    Y/N Saddam was “good” when making war on Iran and gassing the Kurds, but “evil” when Bush I made war on him; then “good” again when Cheney did business with him, but “evil” again when Bush II made war on him.

    Y/N Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.

    Y/N If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won't have sex.

    Y/N A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our longtime allies, then demand their cooperation and money.

    Y/N Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy, but providing health care to all Americans is socialism.

    Y/N A president lying about an extramarital affair is an impeachable offense, but lying about the reasons for war is solid defense policy.


    If you can answer, “YES” to these questions, you definitely cannot become a Canadian citizen, Canadians are proud of their citizenship. Canadians value the rights and freedoms of all people, and accept the responsibilities, of citizenship. Please stay away from Canada and seek professional help as soon as possible.
     
  16. madame_zora

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    Basically, I know you're right, but you should see the funny looks I get if I try telling most people I'm asian! Indians LOOK more "middle eastern" than "asian".

    Lascap, thanks for the survey, guess it's time to pack my bags.....
     
  17. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    Yeah. Somewhere along the way, I really started becoming discouraged about what life is like in my own country. The typical patriotic argument goes something like this, "Look at what we have in our country. Look at all the rights and freedoms we have, the privileges and the power of democracy. You can do or be anything you want here."

    And, let's face it, that's not really true, is it?

    Denounce their liberalism however you wish, but if I were being treated like a second-class citizen and if my rights were just as good as any other's persons rights were being trounced, I wouldn't want to live here either. I haven't been politically aware for too long and I know I haven't survived long enough to become some authority on American history, but I can credit Bush for one accomplishment: He really cleft our country.

    I knew about the differences between conservatives and liberals, but I didn't really FEEL them until now. I suppose it's because I toe that line on so many different classifications -- racially, heterosexually, culturally, or thinking about issues of gender and power and sensitivity and the implications of which-fucks-whom -- that I feel even more out of place. Zora's earlier point about people "like us" losing even a little bit of political power (or representation) makes a hell of a lot of difference, because, as you can guess, the only people who care about people "like us" are really people "like us." How can someone like myself or Zora or Jon really put a lot of stock in American leadership when people from our cultures and ways of life aren't even being considered?

    I suppose I'm lucky because I can still get by "in the system" with marrying a woman and, cross my fingers, I'm not very likely to get swept up in some unforeseen draft. Even if I were, I would reinvoke the spirit of my cultural tribe, pick out my 'fro, and burn my draft card on the spot. Gonna get me? Fuck you. I've got a doctorate program in Canada waiting for me, and my bitterness and disillusionment will keep me warm, I say. Either way, I'm way, way luckier than the gay guy down the road who won't know the joy of marriage, or starting and raising a family, or having the luxury of a lifelong and publicly protected partnership.

    The important question is, what can my country's leadership do for me in order to restore my broken faith? So long as the current political state panders toward pseudoreligious argumentation, Leviticus, faith-based foolery, anti-abortion, anti-choice, and spoonfeeding, I don't think I'll get a straight answer. (Pun intended.)

    When those people decided to lay down their American citizenship in the name of their personal integrity, I respected their decisions because of just how bravery it took to do so. We live in a divided country with an administration that gives two-shits about only a select few populations. It's no small wonder that people who could afford to do so would want out. I can't explain it much more intelligently, but I can admit that my pride in America is shot and that I'm really, truly scared for the next four years. We're already on the International Shit List.

    What's the worse that could happen?

    I don't even want to know...
     
  18. madame_zora

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    Wow, Dee, you never cease to impress. As fine as you are, your mind is surely your most beautiful organ!

    I'm with you in that I can "toe the line" racially and in being a hetero, but at this point I'd just rather be an angry screaming racially "other" WOMAN! Maybe I just feel that's what's needed to counterbalance the state of the nation. Those of us who feel we can should scream, otherwise our tiny voices will not be heard. If only gays stand up for gay rights, they will never happen, so it will take a lot of shouting to get the message out that HUMAN rights affect us all. If only blacks stood up for black rights, they never would have happened, and we are far from done on that front. If only women cared about women's rights- oh, nevermind, NO ONE cares about that. Just fetuses, fuck women and BORN children.
     
  19. jonb

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    Oh, so it's like how "African-American" doesn't apply to Egyptians or South Africans.

    One of the big problems here in America is that we have this huge lumpenproletariat. The neoliberals have convinced most of America that they're consumers rather than producers, and that any attempt to fight against brand names is a communist plot. IMO, it's all Randian bullshit, and when I read Atlas Shrugged, I spent most of the time either asleep or rolling on the floor laughing my ass off.

    And then there's just willful ignorance. Much like the walls in Israel, Americans set up all kinds of ways to avoid seeing the people hurt by American hegemony. Few Americans ever visit Indian reservations, and those who do wonder why we don't plant some flowers or some trees.

    There's also the whole "white man's burden" issue. So what if the CPA won't let Iraq hold elections? We're spreading democracy. And so what if Afghanistan's controlled by heroin dealers? We're spreading democracy. And so what if we're on friendly relations with theocracies which allow for slavery? (Double whammy.) We're spreading democracy. At least when Kipling talked about white man's burden, they were spreading the very memes they used to justify their invasion.
     
  20. B_DoubleMeatWhopper

    B_DoubleMeatWhopper New Member

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    'African -American' doesn't apply to Egyptians or South Africans because they're not Americans; they're Africans.
     
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