Do gays hate women?

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prepstudinsc: I've got several friends who are married to women but are gay--one has affairs on his wife, one doesn't. I've got some friends who got married to women, then decided to come out, and got divorced.
I've also got a very good friend who is gay, but dated girls all the way through college, and one of his best friends is a girl. It's a stereotype that gays hate women. They don't hate women anymore than lesbians hate men. The thing that differentiates homo and hetero sexuality is the sex of the partner. Straight men prefer to have sex with women, gay men prefer other gay man. I've never been hit on in person by a gay man....only in the chatrooms on AOL. I think if a gay guy gets married to a woman and has kids, it makes for a difficult life--both partners get cheated out of totaly fulfilment. It doesn't mean that they can't love each other, but they love each other in a more platonic way, like best friends or brother/sister, rather than as lovers.

 

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hawl: [quote author=sudas link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=0#0 date=08/19/03 at 16:07:49]  In the past (and perhaps currently) some men will marry women, even though they say they "felt gay" since a teenager.  Perhaps some will break up their marriage for better sex, just like straight men might do.  

It just seems exceptionally cruel for a man with a tendency towards being gay (such as the reasons above) to divorce his wife, who's his high school sweetheart, and the mother of his children, in order to pursue a gay lifestyle or relationship.  He must hate her.  Need this always be the case? 
[/quote] Why am I the first person to ask what's up with this question? "Exceptionally cruel"? "Tendency towards being gay"? What serious scientist doesn't think being gay is as innate as handedness? Our cruel culture has a "tendency" to railroad both hets and gays into being "married with children" ASAP, perhaps so they're run down like Al Bundy and thus easier to control. Isn't it crueler to live a lie and deceive your spouse than to leave? Elton John's old song "Someone Saved My Life Tonight" is about how he abandoned his youthful plan to marry and have kids with his then-"girlfriend". He says an unnamed musician he didn't even know was gay knew he was and warned him "If you marry this woman, you'll destroy two lives-hers and yours".

 

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headbang8: I had several deep and satisfying sexual relationships with women before I came out as a gay man in my thirties. I could even say that I've loved several women in different ways. They enriched my life and I definitely don't regret the experience.

Women are woven into the tapestry of humanity which we all share, gay or straight. You'd live a pretty grim life on the planet if you hated half the people you saw on the street every day.

But I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I prefer the company of men.

Men are incredibly emotionally honest--we seldom conceal our agendas. We take and give pleasure with great gusto. The love we give is active, practical, even noble. Men are often caricatured as insensitive droogs, but I find men abundantly intuitive and emotionally expressive. Some who have studied the matter even say that men are a lot more emotional than women.

I know I'll be slammed for saying so, but in my experience, I have found these rather important qualities more prominently amongst men.

Women, of course, contribute much that's unique and valuable to the business of being human. But in this one man's opinion, I'm glad my crazy brain wiring points me in the direction of men. While I enjoy their fine bodies, I also enjoy their great, big hearts.

(That's big hearts,everyone)

 

[Ralexx]

DoubleMeatWhopper wrote :

Trust me, we don't ALL love Madonna

Well, I met her in Paris in 1999 and she was lovely. I took the opportunity to tell her I liked (and still do) her last album - then, in 1998 - « Ray of Light ».

 

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gigantikok: Yea, coming from a straight point of view, I would also disagree with the statement that gays hate women. Actually, alot of my gay friends tend to have the most meaningful relationships with women.

And in regards to Madonna. Yuck. I wouldn't touch her with a ten foot pole. Oh, and she's overrated.

 

[13788]

Trackers: [quote author=throb919 link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=0#10 date=08/21/03 at 07:26:52]On a lighter note...
We LOVE women: Cher, Madonna, Bette, sammygirly, AnonyMs, Nene, Judy, Liza, Trackers, Aussiechick63, Miss Patti (LaBelle), the Queen Mum, Dusty Springlfield, wvlady1968...[/quote]
Thank you Throb.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

[quote author=throb919 link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=0#16 date=08/21/03 at 18:24:49]Yep, 2 Bettes for the price of one. And by "Diana" I assume you mean both Ross and the Princess of Wales. [/quote]

Yes, but also Dame Diana Rigg. What gay man can resist her sense of style as Emma Peel?

 

[13788]

joe22xxx: Well I have to admit I've never really thought about what you (headbang 8) wrote above before.

As an occasionally insensitive male, I understand how my lack of insight into others creates a lot of hurt for them. I know it's possible to love other guys, but I think it's the sexual part that gets in the way for some of us, me included. I can't see myself making out with or holding a guy in my arms or chewing on his ear lobe. When I imagine it in my head, it's like it feels very weird to me. I'm still trying to figure out how to be a good friend to the guys I care about, as well as the girls.

Thanks for tweaking my mind in such an interesting way.

 

[D_Martin van Burden]

That observation begs an interesting question, Joe. What are you prepared to handle if and when you display affection for another guy?

It's pretty acceptable for Greek guys to behave affectionately toward another without it being seen as overtly homosexual. Hugging and kissing are pretty common; it's just not seen that way, I guess. I know that was something rather difficult to reconcile when self-investigating my own attractions. At what point was I just going with the flow, cool with hugging or kissing a bud on the cheek, versus saying, "This contact means more to me than that."?

 

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Robyn: Gays don't hate women, they just love men

 

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AnonyMs: [quote author=headbang8 link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=20#22 date=08/22/03 at 20:57:12]Men are incredibly emotionally honest--we seldom conceal our agendas.  We take and give pleasure with great gusto.  The love we give is active, practical, even noble.   Men are often caricatured as insensitive droogs, but I find men abundantly intuitive and emotionally expressive.  Some who have studied the matter even say that men are a lot more emotional than women.
[/quote]
while there are many straight men who share the qualities you note above, I have found the qualities you describe as being particularly prevalent among gay men. I don't think if you were trying to have relationship with a straight man you would find as many men with those qualities... well... you know what I mean.....

 

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joe22xxx: Here I go again, trying to get this "straight " in my mind. First responding to Dee's post above: since I come from an affectionate family, when the men kiss or hug each other, it doesn' t have any sexual feelings to it. That's just what my experience is so far. I'm absolutely sure that kissing my great uncle on the cheek wouldn't lead to us "making out". It's a very scarey thought!    I don't think that affection necessarily leads to sexual expression. I guess that's my point. There is a mechanism in me that stops me from wanting to stick my tongue into "certain others' mouths"; for example, my mother or sister, and males of the species.  It's a TABOO. (I've heard gay guys say that they feel this way about women. But this may just be a limited number of people.)I have had gay male friends sort of flirt with me when they've been drinking, which I think is humorous. But no gay guys have ever been cruel to me or treated me badly.

As far as the positive qualities listed about men referred to by AnonyMs, I would hope that I'd have some if not all of those qualitites, and that a woman who I'd love would appreciate them in me at some point in my life. Isn't this what it means to be a conscious human being, not just a male?

 

[Max]

I like what headbang wrote very much.  I am a straight male, married, but some long-standing and deep friendships with other guys ... not a huge number, just a few (and no trace of any sexual expression) ... have been and are more important to me than I can say.

I'm not sure that I would go with headbang in saying that these good qualities are more common amongst men.  But I think, and here I disagree with nony, that the emotional intelligence and sensitivity needed for this sort of warmth of friendship are just as common amongst straight men as they are with gay men and women.   And that straight men are unjustifiably maligned and caricatured in the media as emotional morons; when I see that it irritates me beyond measure.  And I suppose, to put the negative side, that there are just as many women and gay men as straight men who are insensitive, selfish and manipulative.

 

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AnonyMs: Max: I really debated for some time on how to phrase what I was trying to say. I did not want to paint with too wide a brush, because as I stated, there are many wonderful straight men who share those qualities. I was not trying to male-bash. One thing I look for in a man is whether or not he has close friendships with other men. If he does not, I consider that a red flag about pursuing a romantic relationship with him. There are many many men who do not have close friendships with other men.

I rejoice with all you men that do.

 

[Max]

Thanks Nony.

 

[Ralexx]

[quote author=Max link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=20#32 date=08/25/03 at 23:23:34]I like what headbang wrote very much.  I am a straight male, married, but some long-standing and deep friendships with other guys ... not a huge number, just a few (and no trace of any sexual expression) ... have been and are more important to me than I can say.

I'm not sure that I would go with headbang in saying that these good qualities are more common amongst men.  But I think, and here I disagree with nony, that the emotional intelligence and sensitivity needed for this sort of warmth of friendship are just as common amongst straight men as they are with gay men and women.   And that straight men are unjustifiably maligned and caricatured in the media as emotional morons; when I see that it irritates me beyond measure.  And I suppose, to put the negative side, that there are just as many women and gay men as straight men who are insensitive, selfish and manipulative.[/quote]


Aah, MAX, :-* :-* :-* Great !!!!

 

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throb919: [quote author=joe22xxx link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=20#31 date=08/25/03 at 20:49:58]Here I go again, trying to get this "straight " in my mind. First responding to Dee's post above: since I come from an affectionate family, when the men kiss or hug each other, it doesn' t have any sexual feelings to it...[/quote]
A couple of thoughts--mostly about how expressions of affection among males of the species can be, well, complicated.

It occurs to me that joe22xxx more freely expresses his affection for heterosexual men than I do. As a gay man, I probably "compartmentalize" or censure myself sometimes--most of the time--with hetero male friends so as not to make them feel uncomfortable or have anything be misinterpreted. I realize that with the straight male friends I do hug, they took the initiative first--they reached out to me. Weird, huh? And I'm an affectionate person.

I don't think that affection necessarily leads to sexual expression. I guess that's my point...

I'm with Joe (and other posters) on this one. (Not sure I understood your "progression," Dee. Maybe I didn't read it right.) And the difference between affection and sexual expression is pretty clear-cut to all of us--men, women, hetero, homo, uncles, Moms, great-aunt Ethel. It's not just that it's taboo, Joe--you just flat-out don't want to "slip a little tongue" to males or female family members. You feel affection for them--and there's nothin' sexual about it.

So anyway--Saturday night I ran into my friends Charlene and Clay at a party. (This is going somewhere.) Charlene and I have been friends for years; Clay is her "new" husband of about a year. Nice guy. Haven't really spent much time with him--but we were all having a great time at the party and decided to go out to dinner together. Clay and I "got" each other's jokes and cut-up all night--to the point that Charlene threatened to "separate you boys." At the end of the evening, we walked out of the restaurant together, continued to chat before saying our goodbyes. When the time came, I hugged and kissed Charlene (on the lips), then turned to Clay and extended my hand. I expected it would turn into one of those two-handed shakes or a handshake-with-a-pat-on-the-back that's almost a hug--but, Clay gave me a big ol' hug and a kiss. I sensed that I bristled and hoped he hadn't noticed. It was (to him) the most natural thing in the world; it should've been to me. He was much more comfortable expressing affection than I was.

Clay is from a big Italian family; I'm whitebread WASP-y Southern. I don't kiss any "het" men. I come from a loving family, but we lack the demonstrative Mediterranean affection Joe enjoys. So add cultural difference to the mix.

Then I realized I wouldn't've been comfortable kissing a gay man on the street in front of the restaurant either. I'm not closeted, not particularly worried about being "fag-bashed" (North Carolina is way more civilized than a lot of people think)--but still have a sense of appropriateness instilled in me somewhere. Or something. I generally don't like "getting in people's face" about being gay, y'know...? (Posts here notwithstanding.) No PDAs with the b/f either, but I think I'd feel that way with a g/f, too. (Totally moot point.) But growing up in the South, I'm probably expressing a geographic bias, too.

So I'm thinking about affection and why we feel the way we do and why we do what we do. Gay, straight, men, women, cultural, regional, geographic, "hetero-phobic"...I may just have to hug (and kiss) a few more straight guys--and try to feel more comfortable doing so...

Weird.

 

[Ralexx]

[quote author=headbang8 link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=20#22 date=08/22/03 at 20:57:12]I had several deep and satisfying sexual relationships with women before I came out as a gay man in my thirties.   I could even say that I've loved several women in different ways.   They enriched my life and I definitely don't regret the experience.

Women are woven into the tapestry of humanity which we all share, gay or straight.  You'd live a pretty grim life on the planet if you hated half the people you saw on the street every day.

But I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I prefer the company of men.

Men are incredibly emotionally honest--we seldom conceal our agendas.  We take and give pleasure with great gusto.  The love we give is active, practical, even noble.   Men are often caricatured as insensitive droogs, but I find men abundantly intuitive and emotionally expressive.  Some who have studied the matter even say that men are a lot more emotional than women.

I know I'll be slammed for saying so, but in my experience, I have found these rather important qualities more prominently amongst men.

Women, of course, contribute much that's unique and valuable to the business of being human.  But in this one man's opinion, I'm glad my crazy brain wiring points me in the direction of men.  While I enjoy their fine bodies, I also enjoy their great, big hearts.

(That's big hearts,everyone) [/quote]

Well... Wow !! These words caressed my heart, that's all I can say for the moment !... I wish I could have said it, but maybe I wasn't as lucky as you were (are). Most of the guys I met had "bagatelle" hearts, 1-2 exceptions (who proved the rule). ... You were damn lucky to find men with fine bodies and great hearts.

Oh, Life ! Who made you so complicated ?

 

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Javierdude22: I do think that in general women are more capable of showing affection than men. They sometimes of course hold up a shield, but mostly that is because they are afraid to get hurt (mostly from past experiences).

Guys in general are less willing to show emotion or affection. I know that i'm 'good' at showing emotions, but suck at affection. Maybe that was shaped in our paternalistic societies. We are taught to be tough, fearless, and strong. New generations of parents are changing that, emotion is good more and more, so now its changing a bit.

But maybe also guys have a hidden agenda oftentimes i.e. sex. Of course many of us don't, and many of those seem to have gathered at the LPSG, but many show affection to the point that they get what they went for.

Just a thought.

 

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sudas: Regarding male affection, I think conforming to the male peer group heirarchy is to blame. For example my cousin when she was ~11 was sweet on a boy in class, so she gave him a valentine. He didn't want to be thought of as a sissy, so he tore it up in front of her, which hurt her feelings.

The next stage occurs starting high school. Now his friends expect him to date to try to get laid. However, sometimes when the guy convinces his girlfriend to have sex, he dumps her because of his ambivalent feelings. Pehaps he can't identify with her. He asks, is she a slut (despite her being a virgin), why would she do it with him, etc.

Girls feel the power to conform, too. Like it's OK if all in her group are virgins, or all have boyfriends, (later all must be married, or all have kids), but if everyone else is a virgin but one sleeps with a couple guys than she is outcast. However, a girl may just have guy friends (nonsexual) and be herself. I don't hear of too many straight guys having only platonic women friends.

I expect this power of conformity also makes guys more conservative, politically. It's not macho to advocate "save the whales" and other "pinko" causes. I see a little of it in sex, where guys either need reassurance of their normality or expect other guys to conform to their idea of what's normal in bed.