Do gays hate women?

[Max]

[quote author=sudas link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=20#39 date=08/27/03 at 07:48:37]I expect this power of conformity also makes guys more conservative, politically. [/quote]

The range of topics here continually amazes me, and lpsg.org is still the best contradiction I know of the old penis v. brains saying.

That your statement could describe US politics reminds me just how wide the Atlantic is; in the UK at least until the last couple of elections it was always true that men were disproportionately likely to support Labour and women more likely to be Conservative voters.  In fact the "hang 'em and flog 'em" types here are typically women.  Not that they have ever got their way about the hanging, of course.  Or indeed the flogging.  It used to be said that if only men voted there would hardly have been any Conservative governments at all since 1945.  

It is presumably the decline of the Union movement and of heavy industry as a percentage of the total employment market, and more recently the deliberate marketing of "Tony" among women, that have tended to even out the imbalance.

 

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throb919: [quote author=Max link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=40#40 date=08/27/03 at 08:27:49]
The range of topics here continually amazes me, and lpsg.org is still the best contradiction I know of the old penis v. brains saying.[/quote]
And the tangential routes (?!) threads take on any given topic! This one is very stream-of-consciousness...

...and more recently the deliberate marketing of "Tony" among women, that have tended to even out the imbalance.

Of course I'm thinking: "What did I do...? Market me to women? Imbalance? All I wanted was a hug...!"

Okay, okay--Tony Blair. Got it, Max. Never mind... ;-)

Tony

 

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headbang8: [quote author=AnonyMs link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=20#30 date=08/25/03 at 16:13:52]
while there are many straight men who share the qualities you note above, I have found the qualities you describe as being particularly prevalent among gay men.    I don't think if you were trying to have relationship with a straight man you would find as many men with those qualities... well... you know what I mean.....  
[/quote]
Nony,

It's funny...when I wrote those words, the men I most had in mind were straight.  

Recent events bring these thoughts to the fore.   Two close pals endured messy divorces where their (now ex-) wives accused them of insensitivity that bordered on cruelty.   Yet these guys are amongst the finest men I know--warm, generous, affectionate, smart, caring, wise.  Loving fathers, adored by their (very confused) children.   They're devastated.  How does stuff like this happen?

Those wretched planets, Mars and Venus, have a lot to answer for.   Since Mars is in the neighbourhood, let's take his side for a minute.

Let me echo Max's despair at how the world assumes men to be insensitive.  It's a bad rap.

I like the way men take responsibility for their emotions. Therapists have preached to us for years that you can't help how you feel.   But we can certainly help what we think about those feelings, and how we choose (or not) to act upon them.

As a man, I acknowledge feelings I don't communicate, because I know what effect it would have on those around me.  

This is not a character flaw.  Just because I feel it doesn't mean I gotta share it.  

(Except in California.  The CHP can pull you over for an empathy violation)

That doesn't make me, to borrow Max's words, an "emotional moron". Far from it.

What does make me an emotional moron is if I don't ever vent an important emotional issue, or express it hurtfully.  To my shame, I've done both.  And I've seen straight women do both in great measure, too.

I suspect that my gay brothers--god bless 'em!--love the Bettes, Chers, Madonnas et al because, emotionally, they act like men.   Passion, joy and heartbreak fill their songs, but it never turns them into victims.  Though they revel in their feelings, they stay on top.   Compare these women with....oh, I dunno.  Whitney Houston?

My male friends, both straight and gay, stay in command of their emotions.   Yet we still value the emotional connections we find--deeply.  

And we cultivate these connections just like women do.  Men often add an extra element of energy, action and shared experience; it makes our affection more tangible and our commitment more visible.    Sport, business, cars, hobbies, music, beer, or in the case of gay men, casual sex.   We can show how much we love each other without having to goddamn talk about it all the time.   I like it that way.

I did not want to paint with too wide a brush, because as I stated, there are many wonderful straight men who share those qualities.  I was not trying to male-bash.

Nony, I think you were quite careful and fair in the brush you chose. (even though I find room to disagree with the picture you paint.)

For every Father-Knows-Best there's a philanderer.   For every sainted mother there's a shrew.  We can always cite exceptions.  But I don't think that should stop you from making a generalisation, especially if your personal experience supports it.  A one-to-one scale map is of no use to anyone!

Besides, gay men have just spent three pages writing about pop divas.  We'd be hypocrites to get all PC and diss a good stereotype!   We just want to make sure, I think, that the stereotype doesn't cause harm.   The "unemotional straight male" stereotype hurt my two buddies badly, in court.  

Sorry for such a long post.    But this thread seems to be covering a lot of ground...

 

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headbang8: [quote author=sudas link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=0#0 date=08/19/03 at 16:07:49]I've been trying to understand true male homosexuality (not just guys who like gay sex).
As to my question, do gay men hate women?  I know that some gay men seem to get along with women.  But I've heard it said that a gay "secret" is that men have issues with their mother.  In the past (and perhaps currently) some men will marry women, even though they say they "felt gay" since a teenager.  Perhaps some will break up their marriage for better sex, just like straight men might do.  

It just seems exceptionally cruel for a man with a tendency towards being gay (such as the reasons above) to divorce his wife, who's his high school sweetheart, and the mother of his children, in order to pursue a gay lifestyle or relationship.  He must hate her.  Need this always be the case?  
[/quote]

Sudas,

A wise man once said that the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference.  

Lots of straight men marry indifferently.  Social and family pressure, guilt, or the desire for a settled, easy life can play a part.  Some straight men marry badly because they're emotionally confused.   All these things apply to gay men , too.

Lives are too precious to waste with an indifferent marriage.  It's good that they split, however late in the game.

But there's a subtext to your question, I think.  That a gay man MUST know he's gay, so marrying is a conscious deception of his spouse.  That he's dishonest and irresponsible.  That's he does it to enjoy the social and emotional benefits of hetrosexual wedlock--status, fatherhood, etc...--while flaking out on the sexual commitment his wife has given.  

Few human beings, gay or straight, are so cynical.   Most people enter into a marriage in good faith, I believe.  

And those who enter it in bad faith (i.e. who consciously intend to welch on the promise of sexual fidelity) are just as likely to be straight as gay.  Probably more likely, given that straight men outnumber gay men 10:1 at least.

Gay men who marry, in my experience, are as emotionally confused as any straight bridegroom.   Straight husbands can work things out with their wives, or not, as time passes.  Gay men, for obvious reasons, don't--but that's not unususal.  Let's remember that nowadays, with divorce rates hitting 50%; a lot of straight men don't make it work, either.   Nor should they.

Thank god that the pressures on men not to acknowledge their sexuality are lessening.  And the situation you describe happens less, and less.

Headbang

P.S. Exactly what's the difference between a "true" homosexual and "guys who like gay sex"?   Can you be both?  

 

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7x6andchg: Headbang8 -

Now there's an interesting question....

Can a man love another man without necessarily feeling the need to get intimate with him?  Would kissing and petting and fondling, etc be enough if sex is not required?  Is that the essence of homosexuality?  Love for another of the same sex?

Or...because in many cultures an intimate relationship is generally thought to consummate a love, whether before or after marriage, is the act of sex a requirement for homosexuality?

Did I ask enough questions? ;D

This is a really interesting topic - I'm glad someone brought it to the top again.

7x6&C

 

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Phallostrates: [quote author=headbang8 link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=40#43 date=09/03/03 at 16:21:53]Exactly what's the difference between a "true" homosexual and "guys who like gay sex"?[/quote]

That one's pretty easy. There are men who like gay sex who are not true homosexuals. The circumstances may very. Straight men engaging in sex with other men as a sustitute for heterosexual acts is, of course, common in prison and other situations where sex with women is not available. And there are the curious men: men who truly are heterosexual, but have a natural curiosity about what sex with another man is like. My roommate in college dated a girl who wouldn't put out. He was romantically involved with her, but a blowjob from me was a viable means of sexual release for him. Most straight men will not reciprocate; a few brave souls will. So they are straight. They are not sexually attracted to men, and are not seeking a romantic relationship with men. Can they actually enjoy gay sex? Sure. A mouth or anus around his penis is going to feel good regardless of the gender of the bearer of the orifice. A particularly talented mouth is going to feel even better, and most men who have experienced fellatio performed by both men and women will admit, if they're honest, that generally speaking men give better head. The mechanical aspects of the sex are pleasurable; the man gets off. Just because he doesn't feel the romantic connection with the other man doesn't mean he can't enjoy the physical.

Can you be both?  

Sure. That's the preferred scenario, and that's me.

 

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irishlad: There are some interesting responses in this thread, but I really dislike coming to this site and seeing the subject "do gays hate women?" It really bums me out just seeing that phrase everyday. It's such a negative phrase and not supportive to women, or gays. I'd urge everyone to continue some of the dialogue started within this thread but use a new subject heading. PLEASE. It's offensive to me as a gay man, and those incredible women who have been there for me in my life

 

[Ralexx]

Phallostrates wrote:

A mouth or anus around his penis is going to feel good regardless of the gender of the bearer of the orifice.

Splendid ! That is the very principle of pleasure. And especially of the bisexual pleasure too, I may add.

May I be pervert enough to say that a hetero is just a bi who didn't try (yet) to find pleasure in a relation with a person of the same sex ?

 

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wvalady1968: [quote author=Raal Lexx link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=40#47 date=09/05/03 at 08:18:04]May I be pervert enough to say that a hetero is just a bi who didn't try (yet) to find pleasure in a relation with a person of the same sex ? [/font][/size][/quote]

I recently watched Victor Victoria for the umpteenth time, and your quote reminds me of the scene where Norma finds out that Toddy is gay. She tells him that "the right woman would change your mind."

And he replies, "The right woman would change YOUR mind."

 

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throb919: Headbang8--Your contributions to this thread continue to engage. You invigorate the discussion and make me think. (I love that in a man...) I look forward to lots more from you.

The Irishlad has a good point, I think. The discussion has broadened so. Can a more inclusive (and neutral) heading be substituted? (I don't even know the mechanics of such or the amount of work involved.) I'm not usually a revisionist-thinking kind-of guy, but...

 

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7x6andchg: Any of us can change the subject of our respones...but I believe one of the moderators would have to change it...

7x6&C

 

[jdoe86]

See Jacked's post on meet and greet and you tell me.

 

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7x6andchg: BRAVO Geo8x6! Succinctly put yet...couldn't have said it better myself.

7x6&C

 

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Longhornjok: Jacked represents himself, not an entire group. I'm not easily offended, but this topic might as well be "Do blacks hates whites?" or "Do atheists hate churchgoers?" as far as I can figure.

 

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headbang8: [quote author=geo8x6 link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=40#51 date=09/05/03 at 20:57:37]See Jacked's post on meet and greet and you tell me.[/quote]

Fish? I'm sure he's been called a fag. He should know better.

The exception that proves the rule, I think.

 

[jdoe86]

I am sorry if you felt like I put you into the same catagory as "jacked". I did not mean to put you with a "hater". I know alot of gay men who do not hate women, but I do know some who do. I also know lesbians who hate men and visa versa. It is obvious the he is the reason gays are thought to be "haters" of women. It is like the stereotype that all gays are in love with Judy Garland and act like "queer eye for the straight guy"

 

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Longhornjok: [quote author=geo8x6 link=board=relationships;num=1061335009;start=40#55 date=09/05/03 at 21:21:29]I am sorry if you felt like I put you into the same catagory as "jacked".[/quote]
Wait, I'm gay now? I just posted because generalizations and stereotypes (of all kinds) really chap my hide. I understand the motivation for asking about this, but a better wording might have been "Why do some gays hate women?"

 

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throb919: Oy! We've been "workin' on" this thread for 3 weeks now and along comes jacked and jerks the rug out from under us--emphasis on jerk. It's hard to even rise to the occasion, y'know? Thanks to you straight-but-not-narrow guys like 7x6&c and longhornjok and the one-size-fits-all label-defying geo8x6 for taking it up...

 

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7x6andchg: Into every life a little intolerance must fall, sadly.

Saddens me, personally, to see someone who feels that need to be that misogynistic...but it certainly doesn't speak to how everyone feels...

7x6&C

 

[Ralexx]

May I also be pervert enough to ask : how many gays aren't there who are in fact hetero-ish guys that never dared asking a girl out / date a girl, lady... ? ???