Do religious people have the right to be homophobic?

MH07

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Well of COURSE they're entitled to be homophobic.

And I'm entitled to hate their guts (shhhh, don't tell the Republicans!).

It's a free country.


I was raised in a fundamentalist religion (Southern Baptist). I'm still having issues from it. But, this is a free country and they can do what they want. It's also a free country and I can tell them they're homophobic, bigoted, and the biggest bunch of lying hypocrites in history.

That's MY right.
 

treetruck

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when you tell someone ( maybe a child ) that there not as good as someone eles, do you think it has an effect?
 

B_lrgeggs

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I think what might be the problem is that you have the gung ho "type A"
personalities that are driving this on both sides of this issue . Most people would rather live and let live.
 

nudeyorker

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I think what might be the problem is that you have the gung ho "type A"
personalities that are driving this on both sides of this issue . Most people would rather live and let live.

Well yes there is that yes, but I learned long ago to confront these issues when they present themselves in real life; rather than fall victim to yet another abstract thread that does not have an answer; particularly when the OP signs off and laughs them self to sleep for starting yet another shit stirring thread that has no answer.
 

B_stanmarsh14

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I think what might be the problem is that you have the gung ho "type A"
personalities that are driving this on both sides of this issue . Most people would rather live and let live.

This is the main problem, when you look at BOTH camps.

You have these extreme type A persons, who think nothing else, but their beliefs are 100% right, and others are to be crushed without compassion or compromise..... the be all and end all.

It's like when circumcision is discussed on these very forums, and one user particular comes to my mind (Whom I would like nothing better than to nuke off the face of this earth if I could), whom without fail makes an appearance in near enough each of these types of threads / posts, with his mass display of arrogance, and vitriol, reminds me exactaly of this type A person you describe.
 

B_stanmarsh14

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Well yes there is that yes, but I learned long ago to confront these issues when they present themselves in real life; rather than fall victim to yet another abstract thread that does not have an answer; particularly when the OP signs off and laughs them self to sleep for starting yet another shit stirring thread that has no answer.

Op may / may not be a shit stirrer, but let us all at least have a good discussion and debate about this, and have something good come from it.

Turn it on it's head if you will :)
 

nudeyorker

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Op may / may not be a shit stirrer, but let us all at least have a good discussion and debate about this, and have something good come from it.

Turn it on it's head if you will :)

That's fine with me if that's possible. If this thread had been started regarding the allegations to the catholic church and their position on homosexuality it would have had a platform. However when someone just posts a completely abstract question he might as well have said is it OK for people to feel love and hate? Or he might have started something thought worthy like "What is the human condition to their upbringing vs. their education and life experience?"
 

chamisaguy

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This diverged from the original question, I think. Sure, in our country (USA) there is freedom to practice one's religion and also to be free FROM religion, and our Constitution/Bill of Rights prohibits the government from establishing a state religion. The 1st amendment gives people the right to free speech, regardless of how reprehensible or offensive it may be. But the limits are drawn on acting on those beliefs when they then affect other persons. To paraphrase, "your right to free speech stops at my nose" - believe whatever you want, have opinions based on religion or your own mental functions, etc. -- but do not attempt to make those the basis for legislation/political positions which impose those religious beliefs on someone who does NOT agree, share those beliefs, or want to be affected by your religious points of view.

Separation of church and state is terribly important, IMO - especially when it comes to issues of civil rights, equality, sexuality, and keeping public policies and laws fully open to protect those in our society who do not share or want to be affected by others' religious teachings or the "general morality" (read biblical positions) - Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) and "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" for the military are examples of policy/laws based on Christian thinking, really. I think this is mostly an issue with concervative Judeo-Christian teachings and church positions, at least in the USA. And there are plenty of other faiths that don't match up with the same teachings - nor does this recognize non-religious people/citizens here, who should have an equal right to believe in not believing.

Where does having laws to protect segments of the population (women, racial minorities, gays/lesbians, etc.) infringe on people's rights to believe something else? Where their actions based on those beliefs cause illegal acts. We make secular laws, not religious laws in the USA (supposedly).

Simplifying: The issue is providing for people to have their religions or not and to keep the secular free of religion ....at least that's how I think of it. We don't (or shouldn't) provide a special nod to Christianity any more...so there
 
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B_stanmarsh14

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Or a condensed version of this..... privileges for all, rather than the choice few.

This diverged from the original question, I think. Sure, in our country (USA) there is freedom to practice one's religion and also to be free FROM religion, and our Constitution/Bill of Rights prohibits the government from establishing a state religion. The 1st amendment gives people the right to free speech, regardless of how reprehensible or offensive it may be. But the limits are drawn on acting on those beliefs when they then affect other persons. To paraphrase, "your right to free speech stops at my nose" - believe whatever you want, have opinions based on religion or your own mental functions, etc. -- but do not attempt to make those the basis for legislation/political positions which impose those religious beliefs on someone who does NOT agree, share those beliefs, or want to be affected by your religious points of view.

Separation of church and state is terribly important, IMO - especially when it comes to issues of civil rights, equality, sexuality, and keeping public policies and laws fully open to protect those in our society who do not share or want to be affected by others' religious teachings or the "general morality" (read biblical positions) - Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) and "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" for the military are examples of policy/laws based on Christian thinking, really. I think this is mostly an issue with concervative Judeo-Christian teachings and church positions, at least in the USA. And there are plenty of other faiths that don't match up with the same teachings - nor does this recognize non-religious people/citizens here, who should have an equal right to believe in not believing.

Where does having laws to protect segments of the population (women, racial minorities, gays/lesbians, etc.) infringe on people's rights to believe something else? Where their actions based on those beliefs cause illegal acts. We make secular laws, not religious laws in the USA (supposedly).

Simplifying: The issue is providing for people to have their religions or not and to keep the secular free of religion ....at least that's how I think of it. We don't (or shouldn't) provide a special nod to Christianity any more...so there
 

Mickactual

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Everyone has the right to feel and believe whatever they want.
That's right. Religious people have every right to be homophobic if they so desire.
...And I have every right to say I feel all these pious homophobes should be shot.
:AR15firing:
 

bigbull29

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Love thy neighbors but stone the queer.
An eye for an eye but those without sin cast the first stone.
The meek shall inherit the earth though the pursuit of money is the root of all evil.

I believe in the divine, in a higher power, in God.

I have far less faith in man and his interpretation of what that means.

Truly, if Christians followed the teachings of the Gospel, most would be like Mother Theresa. But man corrupts religion and turns it into a way to hate and feel superior.

Showing compassion and love is the essence of Christianity, but that does not mean that one cannot think something is immoral or not.

The bigger question then becomes: Do the sins of the religious invalidate or somehow disprove the teachings of Christianity? I'm afraid not.

I also believe in God.
 

helgaleena

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Everyone has the right to Be a narrow minded bigot, but the problems start when they Act on it.

And religions that condone any sort of cruelty are not much help.

Flying Spaghetti Monster has the Eight I'd Really Rather you Didn'ts instead of the Ten Commandments. That is so cool...:240:
 

AquaEyes11010

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I have to break down the question of "Do religious people have the right to be homophobic?" in order to answer it properly according to my own opinions.

First off, I want to clarify what is meant by "to be homophobic." Does this mean that the religious people in question have personal distaste for homosexual people in their own minds? If that is the extent of the definition, then we are asking about rights to opinions. I believe we all are allowed our own opinions without question. Opinions, by definition, are concepts. The only actions justified to be attached to opinions involve sharing the opinions via spoken or written word, or by some other form of communication. If, however, the "to be homophobic" extends to actions not merely communicative but resulting from opinions, well, now we're in shadier territory.

If the action is not associating with homosexual people in a social atmosphere, I believe that falls under the "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" category. Saying someone has no right to decide his preferred social settings would be interfering with his "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" category. So here, yes, a person has a right to be homophobic.

If the action extends beyond mere social settings and into cases of denying employment or some other business transaction ordinarily extended to non-homosexuals, then a "right to being homophobic" can't be upheld. An employer or business person is acting as an agent for the business. Businesses are not individuals, and thus can not have "opinions." They can have best-interests (efficiency, profit, etc.) but these are not protected above rights of individuals. Persons acting as agents for businesses are granted rights to opinions, but only those opinions directly affecting the best-interests of the business can be upheld. There is nothing in the definition of "homosexual" that I can think of which would interfere with the best-interests of a business, despite the possibility of there being a conflict with the personal opinions of the business's agents. Thus while personal opinions are justified for individuals, this does not carry over when individuals act as agents for businesses. In this case, the only opinion justified is that of the best-interests of the business.

Secondly, let's address the attachment of religious people to the question. Religion creates its own morality which is independent of rational morality. This is not a slam to the religious, but simply a definitional distinction. Rational morality is based on independent reasoning, whereas religious morality has religious doctrine as the core from which the morality is derived. Since opinion based on religious morality is still opinion, it is protected as a right.

When religious morality is used as a defense for action, that's when things get shady. Religious morality can state that something is immoral simply because it conflicts with religious doctrine, and there is no argument against that classification without withdrawing or ignoring the article of doctrine condemning the act. Since rational morality is conceived independent of doctrine, there exists a potential conflict with religious morality. Rational morality poses questions to the act: is there harm caused?; is harm justified by the ends?; does the act serve a greater good than denying the act?; etc. There are acts that can be considered moral in rational morality and immoral in religious morality, and vice versa. There are acts that can be considered moral according to one part of religious doctrine, and immoral according to another part of the same religious doctrine. Additionally, since religious morality is based on religious doctrine, it will necessarily vary from religion to religion. Since we are a secular state, and in order to maintain freedom of (and from) religion, we must adopt the rational morality model. In doing so, when there is conflict between religious and rational morality, the latter must prevail.

Another question is since we do live in a country with freedom of (and from) religion, does a religious morality justification of an act hold when the act is committed against an individual not sharing the same religious morality? Would this be considered imposing the religion of one upon another?

Up until relatively recently, religious morality dictated that blacks were to be excluded from the Mormon church. This was based on the doctrines accepted within the religion. Thus a Mormon could deny a business transaction with a black person through his religious morality. The question I ask is if the Mormon would "have the right" to be racially prejudiced to black people. Following what I've written above, he would be justified in maintaining his opinion, but not in his discriminatory business transaction. Thankfully for black people, there are laws protecting them in these situations, and I doubt "religious morality" would hold up in court as justification of a violation of these laws. And this is why anti-discrimination laws need to have sexuality written into their descriptions.

Thus a person does have a right to be homophobic in opinion when that homophobia is protected by religious morality, but that is not extended to justifying acts resulting from homophobia founded in religious morality. You can have your opinion, and you can share your opinion, but when your opinion results in acts which interfere with my rights to "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" then I believe you have stepped beyond your rights of religious freedom. Religious freedom refers to your right to practice your own religion, not impose it or its rules upon others not following it.

Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend.

:)
 

nedly32

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yes they should be allowed to belive and express them selfs as we our selfs do. i dont belive they should do harm to others , but we need to respect the way they choose to live there lives weather we agree or not.
 

Drifterwood

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IThus a person does have a right to be homophobic in opinion when that homophobia is protected by religious morality, but that is not extended to justifying acts resulting from homophobia founded in religious morality. You can have your opinion, and you can share your opinion, but when your opinion results in acts which interfere with my rights to "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" then I believe you have stepped beyond your rights of religious freedom. Religious freedom refers to your right to practice your own religion, not impose it or its rules upon others not following it.

Hope everyone had a wonderful weekend.

:)

Thank you.

My apologies for needing to go to bed at one in the morning. There have been several cases in the UK recently where religious morality has been the justification for actions that are illegal. There is a case in our High Court, in which a lady lost her job as a civil marriage registrar for refusing to administer gay civil partnerships on religious grounds.

My view is that if she wishes to impose religious restrictions on marriage, then she should practice this within a religious context, not the civil one that employed her. Refusing to do her job because of religious committments out of place in the civil arena, makes her unfit to perform that job when she refuses to do it.

Various faith groups are fighting against the secular legal framework, the Pope even criticised our civil rights legislation. No doubt there will be many more cases in the UK and no doubt, you will begin to see the same in the US as civil rights are extended to gay partnerships and other matters.

Homophobic is the catch all term that is being used to describe those who are allegedly in conflict with the civil rights laws protecting gay people.

http://www.personneltoday.com/artic...an-ladele-loses-religious-discrimination.html

http://www.directionstoorthodoxy.or...iticizes_unjust_effects_of_equality_bill.html
 
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AquaEyes11010

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Thank you.

My apologies for needing to go to bed at one in the morning. There have been several cases in the UK recently where religious morality has been the justification for actions that are illegal. There is a case in our High Court, in which a lady lost her job as a civil marriage registrar for refusing to administer gay civil partnerships on religious grounds.

My view is that if she wishes to impose religious restrictions on marriage, then she should practice this within a religious context, not the civil one that employed her. Refusing to do her job because of religious committments out of place in the civil arena, makes her unfit to perform that job when she refuses to do it.

Various faith groups are fighting against the secular legal framework, the Pope even criticised our civil rights legislation. No doubt there will be many more cases in the UK and no doubt, you will begin to see the same in the US as civil rights are extended to gay partnerships and other matters.

Homophobic is the catch all term that is being used to describe those who are allegedly in conflict with the civil rights laws protecting gay people.



I completely agree. The woman of whom you speak did have a right to her opinion that the civil union was wrong, but she did not have the right to refuse to conduct it in a secular situation which was within the law. She made a commitment to her job, and her job had as one of its functions this act to which she objected. Regardless of her reasons, refusing to do a part of her job is justification for losing her job, so long as this part did not violate job policy or law. If she objected to a necessary part of her job on moral grounds, she would be within her rights to seek another job.

Similarly, if religious people object to same-sex marriages on grounds that such unions violate their religious morality, then they can refuse to participate or officiate in such unions, but who are they to tell non-members of their church what they can and can't do? If you say that my marriage to another man is in violation of your god's will, what do you say to my counter that I don't believe in your (or any) god, so I don't have to follow the will of a non-being? Your concept of my punishment doesn't exist in my realm.

And in any case, marriage is a contract between two people entitling both to a slew of benefits not available to two non-married people. Any concept of marriage "in the eyes of god" does not apply. Conversely, if your faith allows for children to marry but the "laws of the land" require a certain age of consent, a marriage ritual for children conducted in your church may be valid within your religion but will not hold water in the secular realm. Are we to lower age of consent for those of a religion which allows children to marry on the grounds of religious freedom? I don't believe so, as in this case religious morality is trumped by legal morality. The law doesn't prevent the religious rite of child-marriage, but does not legally recognize the union until the marriage party becomes of legal age.

One point I pose to religious people who fight laws which go against their religious morals is where in the religion does it say that the rules of the religion must be codified into laws of the land which must be followed by everyone, including those not in the religion? Also, if your religion requests you to eschew certain acts which are not eschewed by non-members of your religion (think about dietary restrictions -- imagine living in the US and not being allowed to eat meat on Fridays, or not being allowed to eat leavened bread during Passover, etc), doesn't it weaken your conviction to your religion to require that there is extra legislation to reinforce this rule? Shouldn't it be enough to have your church say "don't do it" without the government passing a law? Are you saying that the religious prohibition alone isn't strong enough? If that's the case, then the problem lies within the fellow members of your church and not the non-members who don't follow your rules. We don't hear about the Amish/Mennonites getting together to pass laws in towns where they are the majority that enforce their religious codes. Perhaps they are stronger in their faith and don't need additional penalties against such acts. Perhaps it's enough for them to know "god doesn't want us to do that." Something to think about, huh?

:)
 
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Drifterwood

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The question is so ambiguously asked. Is OP asking whether people of certain religions should get to break the law without consequence? "Hell no" would be my answer.

How you ask a question is very important.

For example the status quo question is, should gay people have the right to marry? Whereas I might ask, what right do you have to stop gay people marrying?

My personal secular opinions inevitably bring me into conflict with the dogma of religious conservatism. My personal feelings about religions are irrelevant, the issue concerns the acceptance of a cultural morality framework that non secular organisations feel is their right in a supposedly secular society. These presumptions can be linguistically embedded in our culture. I am just tryng to avoid them.
 

AquaEyes11010

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How you ask a question is very important.

For example the status quo question is, should gay people have the right to marry? Whereas I might ask, what right do you have to stop gay people marrying?


Seductively simple yet bloody brilliant!!!
 

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I'm not sure if people have the right to be homophobic -- or racist or sexist -- but they don't have the right to violate other people's civil rights.

Whether the person's religion is the basis for their bigotry is irrelevant because people of all faiths pick and choose which parts of their dogmas they want to subscribe to. They've chosen to discriminate against others and have made up a reason for doing so.