Do religious people have the right to be homophobic?

[HazelGod]

This should be about letting people live the way they want, including those who don't agree with you if they aren't doing any harm to you or anyone else.

That's the crux, though. Personally, I believe it's the religious believers who should be ridiculed and persecuted and have their rights curtailed by governments. More blood has been spilled and more human suffering inflicted under the various banners of religion than from any other cause in the history of time.

When the gays start racking up a body count, then I'll entertain a discussion on the validation of institutionalized homophobia.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

There are a lot of people who think a lot of things and never tell anyone or act upon it. If you only knew what goes on inside of someone elses mind....

I know there are several religions that don't have a problem with gay lifestyles. I know gay people who go to church. I know religious people who have no problem with gays regardless what their church or bible says.

I don't care what religious history is, what is religious present doing? Are they killing off masses of people who don't agree with them? No they arent and it isnt and wouldnt be accepted in this day and age.

I don't like people telling me what to do or think- regardless what reasoning they have behind it- whether its religious or not. Religion is an easy target when there is a ton of hateful and vile things going on outside of the pretenses of religiousity.

 

[HazelGod]

I don't care what religious history is, what is religious present doing?

Granted it was about a year and half ago, not yesterday, but perhaps you're familiar with California's notorious Proposition 8?

Religion is an easy target when there is a ton of hateful and vile things going on outside of the pretenses of religiousity.

Why bring up apples in a discussion about oranges? There are plenty of vile, hateful things going on right now in the name of religiosity. One need look no further than the Westboro Baptist Church to see that. When institutions insinuate their dogma so deeply into the minds of so many and influence their actions, it's irresponsible to turn a blind eye when that dogma contains irrational bigotry and hatred. I'm not just talking about gay issues, either...religious stupidity in this country is so pervasive that the majority of people here disbelieve evolution, and we're always watching these morons fighting to spread their idiocy to schoolchildren in place of actual science. Yeah, religion is an easy target for the same reason its easy to hide candy from blind kids...it's screamingly obvious to anyone with half a working brain what a detriment to human progress it poses.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

Most religious people hate Westboro Baptist Church. They don't have a lot of supporters and I'm really surprised they haven't all been obliterated from the national attention they receive for what they are doing. Maybe because the cameras are on all the time when they are protesting no one has really taken a baseball bat to them. Usually far left field nuts get a lot of hell and im sure they do.

Do you think people like that are a fair representation of normal church going people? And proposition 8 not passing in California is surprising. But then again was SURE than the democratic party at the presidential level stood for gay marriage by all the gay support they get, but when watching the presidential debates between Palin and Biden- i was completely thrown out of my chair when he said that he and Mr. Obama believed that marriage was between a man and a woman. Sounds like they aren't for Prop 8 either.

I believe in voting, i believe in the right for people to vote, i dont believe in making people vote a certain way. I have no problem with gay rights regardless how i was raised or what any church said. So i believe based on conversations i have with random people that most don't have homophobic ideas. And as for Prop 8 not being passed- got to get more people voting for it. The vote is what it is.

 

[Drifterwood]

Do non religous people have a right to be homophobic?

Do homosexuals have the right to be Theophobic?

A discriminatory act based upon ...?

That is the issue. Both are illegal under a fair civil rights platform. But not only is it not a fair civil rights platform, but those who enjoy its protection are attempting to have exclusions in order that they can continue to discriminate.

 

[HazelGod]

Most religious people hate Westboro Baptist Church.
Do you think people like that are a fair representation of normal church going people?

I won't speculate, and it's largely immaterial. The point is that they are within their rights to be vile and hateful, and their desire to do so is driven by religion. There is no reasonable basis for their spew. I would not write them off as "fringe" by any means, though...evangelical membership in this country is on the rise in recent years, marked by a steady retreat from reason and adherence to such idiotic dogma.

when watching the presidential debates between Palin and Biden- i was completely thrown out of my chair when he said that he and Mr. Obama believed that marriage was between a man and a woman. Sounds like they aren't for Prop 8 either.

There's a world of difference between "not being for" something and mobilizing a congregation of hundreds of thousands to oppose that same something. This is exactly what the Latter Day Saints church, and the Catholic church to a lesser extent, did in the run-up to the election. They engaged in a disingenuous crusade of lies and hateful fearmongering PR messages to garner support for the measure.

I believe in voting, i believe in the right for people to vote, i dont believe in making people vote a certain way. And as for Prop 8 not being passed- got to get more people voting for it. The vote is what it is.

Interesting choice of words, Red. The language of Prop 8 was constructed such that the affirmative side was a vote to deny gays equal status...if you were for everyone having the same rights, you had to vote against the measure.

I used to believe as you do, but as time goes by and this nation becomes stupider, I'm coming to the view that universal suffrage only works in theory...it sounds nice, but in practice, allowing every willfully ignorant, easily-led reactionary fucktard to have equal input into the process of governing makes for a whole lot of stupid policies.

 

[Rugbypup]

Little Green Footballs - UK Muslims: 2% of Population, 25% of Anti-Gay Crimes

Interesting...

 

[Rugbypup]

Islam and Homosexuality - WikiIslam

More interesting still...

 

[Rugbypup]

Homosexuality - WikiChristian

Curioser and curioser...

 

[Rugbypup]

Fuck all the reading, just rent the movie version...

Videos on Islam:Homosexuality - WikiIslam

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

Faith Freedom International - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Hmmmmm. Interesting

 

[B_crackoff]

That's the crux, though. Personally, I believe it's the religious believers who should be ridiculed and persecuted and have their rights curtailed by governments. More blood has been spilled and more human suffering inflicted under the various banners of religion than from any other cause in the history of time.

When the gays start racking up a body count, then I'll entertain a discussion on the validation of institutionalized homophobia.

Ist year posturing at university crap that. Exactly where are you getting your axiomatic evidence from?

Great secular leaders of recent times.

Mao Tse Tung - killled more than anyone - Marxist/Communist/Atheist
Joe Stalin - 2nd highest - Marxist/Communist/Atheist
Pol Pot - 1.3-3 million Cambodians - Marxist/Communist/Atheist
Saddam Hussein - Socialist/Atheist( started talking about God only when awaiting his death sentence, previously had advanced women, & removed Sharia Law)
etc etc

Hell even Hitler's (Socialist)wars weren't religious, but territorial & racial.

It staggers me when people persist in mistaking tribal differences for religious. I even saw Dawkins state that the Irish troubles were religious, & at that point I realised what a prosletiser he was, not a logician.

If a whole territory is invaded, & its people subjugated, the enmity is based upon actual physical loss & mistreatment, not spiritual.

Sure, deities can be invoked to inspire courage, & a commitment to the death, but the route cause is always power, & power for those at the top.

I don't think Ghengis Khan brutalised half the world in the name of religion, but in the name of himself.

I don't see any homosexuals being mass murdered, but 1,000s of Christians sure are in India & Pakistan every year. Oh yeah, they don't cover that on ABC,CNN or the BBC do they! So the perception is, it doesn't happen

And as for ridicule & derision, surely that's what these cultural Marxists have been doing to Christianity for years, just like the Soviets did.

And we all know what happened to the Soviet Union.

 

[B_crackoff]

A discriminatory act based upon ...?

That is the issue. Both are illegal under a fair civil rights platform. But not only is it not a fair civil rights platform, but those who enjoy its protection are attempting to have exclusions in order that they can continue to discriminate.

But how is this manifesting itself? You can't get married in a church if you're gay - go to another one, set one up!

The whole point of secularism is to keep church & state separate, & neither interfere.

Now that Government's are interfering, the flip side is that Church's could legitimately mobilize their flock do vote certain ways. Which would no doubt draw howls of protest.

The entire West was built on the very values that are being sought to disassemble, & replace with recent musings which have absolutely no track record of ever working.

Perceived oppression of a minority is turned into actual oppression of the majority - pure Marxist/Frankfurt School gameplay.

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

But how is this manifesting itself? You can't get married in a church if you're gay - go to another one, set one up!

The whole point of secularism is to keep church & state separate, & neither interfere.

Now that Government's are interfering, the flip side is that Church's could legitimately mobilize their flock do vote certain ways. Which would no doubt draw howls of protest.

The entire West was built on the very values that are being sought to disassemble, & replace with recent musings which have absolutely no track record of ever working.

Perceived oppression of a minority is turned into actual oppression of the majority - pure Marxist/Frankfurt School gameplay.

What rusings have no history of working? Tolerance?

You really need to stop blaming every ill in your life on Marx.

 

[B_crackoff]

What rusings have no history of working? Tolerance?

You really need to stop blaming every ill in your life on Marx.

What are you whittering about - having trouble keeping up- Lemon by name & by nature? I'm just correcting pseudo liberals who are oblivious that it's been left wing atheists who've murdered the most.

I actually lived in his late daughter's house for a while. Now he was a scrounging sh*t.

Anyway, for those who don't want the Communist version of Tolerance that was invoked, how about good old Adolf from Mein Kampf.

It's always just hot air. They say one thing& do another.

Those who preach tolerance the most, normally turn out to be wholly intolerant of contradictary views.

.

In the Jew I still saw only a man who was of a different religion, and therefore, on grounds of human tolerance, I was against the idea that he should be attacked because he had a different faith. And so I considered that the tone adopted by the anti-Semitic Press in Vienna was unworthy of the cultural traditions of a great people. The memory of certain events which happened in the Middle Agescame into my mind, and I felt that I should not like to see them repeated....[.

 

[D_Andreas Sukov]

What are you whittering about - having trouble keeping up- Lemon by name & by nature? I'm just correcting pseudo liberals who are oblivious that it's been left wing atheists who've murdered the most.

I actually lived in his late daughter's house for a while. Now he was a scrounging sh*t.

Anyway, for those who don't want the Communist version of Tolerance that was invoked, how about good old Adolf from Mein Kampf.

It's always just hot air. They say one thing& do another.

Those who preach tolerance the most, normally turn out to be wholly intolerant of contradictary views.

.

the fact you consider Adolf Hitler a socialist is hillarious and demonstrates what little you know about socialism. The fact Hitler went to big business for support and massacred thousands of communists and Social democrats is enough proof he wasnt a socialist. Mao killed millions because of his ill concieved policies of the 5 year plans, and in his narcacistic final clutch for power of the cultural revolution. It was a matter of personal behaivour rather than ideology.


Now, back on topic. You argument that left wing athiests killed more people is again rather trivial because if we look even further back in history, the most killing has been done in the name of the church through crusades and kings who were "placed there by god".

Left wing uprisings have only truly been happening in the last 100 years, atleast the ones you have mentioned. Things like Mao's deaths, were mostly unintended. Do you really think Mao meant to starve those peasants? If you do, youre as much of a moron as your writing suggests.

Crack by name, crack by nature?

 

[Sergeant_Torpedo]

Belief cannot be altered by man made laws. All religions have some tolerance of what they deam unacceptable to their life and beliefs. Christian tradition rather than canon exhorts us to be humane to animals; other major religions think it acceptable to abuse living creatures. If I openly objected I am sure some zealot would be ranting and raving. But I am sure the good Lord never intended anyone to listen at bedroom doors, that would be a sin.

 

[AquaEyes11010]

Those who preach tolerance the most, normally turn out to be wholly intolerant of contradictary views.

.

Well, duh...If I'm for tolerance, than the contradictory view is intolerance...so obviously I'm intolerant of intolerance.

 

[B_crackoff]

Well, duh...If I'm for tolerance, than the contradictory view is intolerance...so obviously I'm intolerant of intolerance.

Which is illogical captain. You aren't tolerant at all if you are intolerant. You're purely agenda specific, & that's not toleration. Tolerance is the understanding that differerent groups in society have different views, so let's live with the differences, & find common ground where we can.

You don't have to accept their beliefs or practices as a good thing

People keep confusing tolerance with acceptance.

 

[B_crackoff]

the fact you consider Adolf Hitler a socialist is hillarious and demonstrates what little you know about socialism. The fact Hitler went to big business for support and massacred thousands of communists and Social democrats is enough proof he wasnt a socialist Let's see, socialism's stated aim is ownership by the masses in a collectivist arrangement. Well he did that didn't he! The state controlled pretty much all. He came up with the Third Way - stolen later by Tony Blair. I think Stalin, & Mao both killed off enough opposition too - far more in fact!

. Mao killed millions because of his ill concieved policies of the 5 year plans, and in his narcacistic final clutch for power of the cultural revolution. It was a matter of personal behaivour rather than ideology.

Rubbish, centrally planned economies were formally a tenet of Socialism. This was completely secular destruction.

Now, back on topic. You argument that left wing athiests killed more people is again rather trivial because if we look even further back in history, the most killing has been done in the name of the church through crusades and kings who were "placed there by god".

Are you dense? Exactly how many people were alive then!? prove that a million people or more died. You haven't a clue that the Crusades were more about nobles reclaiming land (see Reconquista of Spain, & the fall of the Byzantine Empire!)

Most Deaths:
WW2 - Secular - non religious (inc Japanese slaughter of Chinese)
WW1 - Secular - non religious
Mao - Secular - non religious
Stalin - Secular - non religious
Russian civil war - Secular - non religious
Iraq - Secular - non religious
Vietnam - Secular - non religious
Korea - Secular - non religious
Cambodia - Secular - non religious

How many religious wars have there been rather than territorial conflicts. I could have added many more. I know there have been religious conflicts, but the figures stack up overwhelmingly on secular carnage.

If you can PROVE otherwise with any kind of statistics, rather than meaningless pulp please do.

Educate me - Don't posture with what you FEEL to be true.

Left wing uprisings have only truly been happening in the last 100 years, Where the majority of people reaching adulthood have ever existed atleast the ones you have mentioned. Things like Mao's deaths, were mostly unintended. Hahahahahah - a bit like the Terror of the French Revolution.

Do you really think Mao meant to starve those peasants? If you do, youre as much of a moron as your writing suggests. Yep! Rather than admit they were wrong. Much like Stalin, who you keep ignoring! All deaths were worthwhile in the name of the glorious Socialist revolution.

It's a fundamental point of Lefties that any disasters were unintentional, were never as bad as Feudalisms etc, let's sweep them under the carpet...

BTW, as a card carrying member for longer than you've been alive, until the gross hypocrisy stank me out of the party system entirely, I've seen more, & forgotten more than you have.

20 years ago the Conservatives said re "Stop & Search" policies, the innocent have nothing to hide, & the Left screamed about Human rights & privacy. And creating draconian laws meant the terrorists had won!

20 years on, the Labour party says, the innocent have nothing to hide(while MPs hide all they can about themselves), & introduce laws to inure in citizens the violation of their privacy every day, with faux, ridiculous anti terror legislation, & say " I would rather all freedoms were removed rather than have one terrorist death"

Bananas - facist, totalitarian.

Crack by name, crack by nature?

I don't blame you for being an idealist, but all politicians without exception suck. The socialist group in the EU parliament even in its stated aims isn't recognisably socialist anymore. In the UK, the BNP has more socialist domestic policies than the Labour party. What's up with that.

And just like Hitler, Blair,Brown & Obama, all crawled into bed with the banks! Brown even wanted rid of Gold & cash, & a purely fiat money system to reign. Being as only a handful of banking families control the issuance of money created from thin air as debt, & charge interest at no risk on it, accumulating ultimately IN ANY ECONOMIC MODEL, the entire resources of an economy - how is such an oligarchy compatible with freedom or liberty, let alone socialism?

Why do you think we have inflation? It's perpetual debt, with interest accumulating.

If you only create $100 in an economy, & lend it @ 10% - how can you pay it back - you can't, you have to create more debt/money, thus prices persistently rise.

The reason I brought up Marxism, is because that's what they do. Attack religion, but never the flaws in their ideologies.

The communists attacked religion, the Nazis attacked the church, as do our beautiful controlled media everyday, & what do they offer us in return.

No fucking freedom whatsoever, unless we agree with everything they say.