Do you believe in heaven and hell?

[ryan25yo]

Bravo Phil Ayesho!

You truly are an idiot.

"Religion stood aside"...."religion underwrote"..."10,000 years of praying and chanting never improved human condition"....

Firstly either you are unintelligent or simply cannot make the difference between the religious core itself and the people who follow the religion.

Religion underwrote the violence? I think your reliance on a religious cause for the conflict is very very shallow and if you look closer it is really a nationalistic pan-arab movement rather then a pan-islam movement. How else would you describe the Arabs talking of Blacks and Asians as scum - as evident in Sudan and Somalia.

And lastly you say human condition? That is a broad term and spirituality has been at the core of the greatest philosophical discoveries of the world. Where would Socrates, Plato Aristotle etc have been if they had not used philosophy to pursue the meaning of life and the earth??

great reply!!! right on!!

 

[Rocky14441]

truly, it is written: "Hell is other people"

 

[Skull Mason]

hell is a constant state of bliss

 

[lipollo]

Hazel God as far as I know the Jews were hellenised and as with the empire wrote and spoke in Greek in official capacities. Hence why the New testament was for the most part written in Koine.

Firstly Phil, I am Greek Orthodox and as it stands I think that Catholicism etc is all crap so I am not going to even comment on them because I dont think any of them (anglicanism etc) who constantly change concepts and values to suit their own self interests (creation of the pope?) can be on the same level as Orthodoxy. So I dont care about what the Jews in Spain did or what Hitler did.

All I know is that the Greek Church in Greece issued fake citizenships to the Jews in Thessaloniki in an attempt to protect them even though the Archbishop was told by the Nazis he would be killed for doing so.

But hey you have completely missed my point.

I dont believe in the Old Testament purely because it is Jewish history. Saying that I dont even follow the New Testament. I only follow the actions and deeds of Jesus Christ. The whole point of the New Testament is to have people understand Jesus and act in his image.

Now you cant sit here and tell me that jesus christ was a bad role model? If you do then you are prejudiced.

AND please do not lecture me on Greek studies because you will lose.

Greek philosophy did not disprove every facet of 'gods'. In fact Socrates himself dispelled the existence of numerous gods and pointed towards the existence of one all mighty - he actually validated the monogomous religions.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

I dont believe in the Old Testament purely because it is Jewish history. Saying that I dont even follow the New Testament. I only follow the actions and deeds of Jesus Christ. The whole point of the New Testament is to have people understand Jesus and act in his image.

Sorry... its not a buffet menu- if you are greek Orthodox, then you believe in the old testament, Christianity being an outgrowth of the Jewish faith.

Now, you Claim you believe in the teachings of Christ?
Here is what Christ said about the mosaic laws of the old testament
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Ergo, if you believe in the teachings of Jesus, he says the Old law must be observed in every detail.

Now you can't sit here and tell me that jesus christ was a bad role model? If you do then you are prejudiced.

That's a logical fallacy... an ad hominem argument. You have no proof that my opinion of jesus is based upon prejudice.
In fact, quite the opposite... MY interpretations of the bible and history are my own, whereas your interpretations are arguably heavily colored by your prior belief.
You accuse me of the very thing you are most guilty of yourself.


Jesus was not the warm and fuzzy guy you have been sold. READ the gospels... I have... he treated his mother like shit. He flew into rages.

But- beyond that... if you believe Jesus to be the son of God, then , sorry, but NO, you DON'T believe in the teachings of Jesus.
Jesus was twice asked point blank if he were the son of God. On Both occasions he denied it.
On the first occasion he made a point of saying he was the son of man... and frequently thru the gospels he refers to himself as the son of man.

It was Paul of Tarsus who sold the idea of Jesus being the son of God.

Therefore, if you believe Jesus was divine, then you are by definition following the teachings of Paul, not Jesus.

AND please do not lecture me on Greek studies because you will lose.

Greek philosophy did not disprove every facet of 'gods'. In fact Socrates himself dispelled the existence of numerous gods and pointed towards the existence of one all mighty - he actually validated the monogomous religions.

Actually Socrates simply said that One god was LESS ludicrous than many.
But Socrates was not the acme of greek thought on God.

There were Greek philosophers that believed in God or Gods... but their arguments were soundly trounced by the superior logic of the non-believers.

I don't know about "facet"s of God... Don't know what you even mean by that... but, At some point, Greek philosophy and logic HAS disproven EVERY argument for God.

If you doubt it, try fielding an argument for God. They have all been shot down by application of Aristotelian logic.

For example Epicurus' argument from evil as follows:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?


This is eloquent proof of the idiocy and impossibility of a "good" and omnipotent creator God.
No God can be BOTH omnipotent AND Moral, given the obvious nature of his purported creation.


Now, please don't take this as a "lecture"... I am making an argument.
And I have 2500 years of solid reason on my side... arguments against God that have never been impeached.
I have scientific evidence that proves prayer has no effect. Proof that miracles do not occur.

And you have not the slightest evidence in proof. No actual physical evidence of the religion you claim to be real... no scientific evidence... and not one single logical argument that has stood up to rebuttal in human history.

In this debate, the only way I lose is in the mind of the believer...whose very belief is an admission of their delusional thinking.

 

[OCMuscleJock]

Sheesh...haven't you people learned...religion and politics in an open forum do not do anything but start fights and arguments that neither side will win but will look like total assholes to everyone else that reads it. As for religion...every different religion broke off from one due to the different beliefs of the people involved. So yah..debating about it will not change things for anyone other than the opinion of the people that post against them or what they believe. Also, Phil...I don't know if you were raised in chruch or a spiritual family, but from MANY of the posts you get into...you use science and logic to try to force your opinion on people...just an observation. There are many things that science and logic cannot explain nor can religion. Both sides will try to make it seem that they can explain but they cannot fully explain it. The whole last part of your post here is TRUELY arrogant and for you to say....

"Now, please don't take this as a "lecture"... I am making an argument.
And I have 2500 years of solid reason on my side... arguments against God that have never been impeached.
I have scientific evidence that proves prayer has no effect. Proof that miracles do not occur.

And you have not the slightest evidence in proof. No actual physical evidence of the religion you claim to be real... no scientific evidence... and not one single logical argument that has stood up to rebuttal in human history.

In this debate, the only way I lose is in the mind of the believer...whose very belief is an admission of their delusional thinking."

This alone is wrong on MANY lvls to ANYONE of ANY religion. Just because faith has no bearing in your life...doesn't make what they believe as wrong. You're basically calling people stupid for believing in God or whatever diety they worship. That's your opinion ...and like they say...opinions are like assholes...eveyone has one. You may think you will not lose the debate, but there are more people out there that are faith based than aren't and science and logic cannot explain everything.

 

[HazelGod]

Actually, OC, I disagree...in my opinion, Phil's assessments - of both religion's irrationality as a whole and the mentality of those who believe - are spot-on.

 

[OCMuscleJock]

not all regious people are like that ... thats a generalization and may be spot on for a few not all. Honestly, I think there are a LOT of religious fanatics out there that take things WAY to far...and are very hypocritical in their beliefs. However, the people that aren't irrational and have a warped mentality are the ones that people overlook because they aren't causing shit in society. And again, It's an opinion, but for him to express it the way he did, he lumped eveyrone into a group and basically called them stupid for their faith. THATS more of my concern.

 

[jammin]

c'mon folks... live and let live... believe what you want but allow others to believe what they want without judging them... these arguments are pointless... nobody wins and everyone gets pissed off and hurt... is it worth it??? life is too short... live and let live...

 

[OCMuscleJock]

c'mon folks... Live and let live... Believe what you want but allow others to believe what they want without judging them... These arguments are pointless... Nobody wins and everyone gets pissed off and hurt... Is it worth it??? Life is too short... Live and let live...

i agree!

 

[2322]

I think the question really is:

Do you believe in heaven above? Do you believe in love? Don't tell a lie, don't be false or untrue. It all comes back to you.

I have no idea who the model in the video is but she's absurdly beautiful.

 

[B_bi_mmf]

c'mon folks... live and let live... believe what you want but allow others to believe what they want without judging them... these arguments are pointless... nobody wins and everyone gets pissed off and hurt... is it worth it??? life is too short... live and let live...

I disagree about the pointlessness of these discussions. It is important for us non-believers to speak up. Our silence would enable many believers to cling to the notion that non-believers are a tiny, faceless lunatic fringe that, without the fear of God in us, must surely rape children, commit murder, be totally incapable of love, and inflict all manner of cruelty upon others.

Just as knowing a gay person is extremely important in turning around the thinking of hateful homophobes, so is knowing a moral, caring non-believer very important in a person's transition away from their embrace of preposterous myth as if it were reality.

What is meant by "live and let live"? Should people who disagree not discuss their points of view? Here we discuss politics, relationships, sex, and many other issues. Why should the most basic ideas relating to how we view the world and our lives be off the table?

It may be true that few minds will be changed. Non-believers can find absolutely zero objective evidence or logical argument in support of belief. Many believers have been so systematically indoctrinated -- brainwashed -- from an such early age that, like victims of other forms of child abuse, they can never free themselves from that abuse and end up perpetuating it in their own children. Other believers, who have become "born again" later in life, are often troubled people who accept the dogma along with the clarity, direction, and friendship offered to them in their moment of weakness by a religious community. Both groups of believers are unlikely to be receptive to a rational scientific perspective in discussions such as this one.

However, I suspect that there are a lot of nominal believers out there who are on some level bugged by the ludicrous premises and blatent inconsistencies of their belief system. Hopefully, discussions such as the excellent one in this thread will help them move toward a world view that is in fact grounded in the real world.

 

[OCMuscleJock]

I disagree about the pointlessness of these discussions. It is important for us non-believers to speak up. Our silence would enable many believers to cling to the notion that non-believers are a tiny, faceless lunatic fringe that, without the fear of God in us, must surely rape children, commit murder, be totally incapable of love, and inflict all manner of cruelty upon others.

Just as knowing a gay person is extremely important in turning around the thinking of hateful homophobes, so is knowing a moral, caring non-believer very important in a person's transition away from their embrace of preposterous myth as if it were reality.

What is meant by "live and let live"? Should people who disagree not discuss their points of view? Here we discuss politics, relationships, sex, and many other issues. Why should the most basic ideas relating to how we view the world and our lives be off the table?

It may be true that few minds will be changed. Non-believers can find absolutely zero objective evidence or logical argument in support of belief. Many believers have been so systematically indoctrinated -- brainwashed -- from an such early age that, like victims of other forms of child abuse, they can never free themselves from that abuse and end up perpetuating it in their own children. Other believers, who have become "born again" later in life, are often troubled people who accept the dogma along with the clarity, direction, and friendship offered to them in their moment of weakness by a religious community. Both groups of believers are unlikely to be receptive to a rational scientific perspective in discussions such as this one.

However, I suspect that there are a lot of nominal believers out there who are on some level bugged by the ludicrous premises and blatent inconsistencies of their belief system. Hopefully, discussions such as the excellent one in this thread will help them move toward a world view that is in fact grounded in the real world.

This is all well and good...but when posting your belief, you do not have to belittle or call people stupid for their beliefs. Sure debate all you want, but there is a point when it becomes too personal and insulting. I've said before on the politics thread, I dont feel that either politics or religion threads should be allowed on this forum due to how hateful they can become and most always do...too quickly. Unlike some on this site, I care about people's feelings. Thats all I'm saying...

 

[sparky11point5]

<non PC>

In hell, the English are cooks, the Germans are the police, the Italians the mechanics, the Swiss the lovers, and the French the bureaucrats.

In heaven, the English are the police, the Germans the mechanics, the Italians the lovers, the Swiss the bureaucrats, and the French the cooks.

Of course, this old joke leaves out us Yanks, but maybe we are the cowboys in both cases.

</non PC>

 

[Phil Ayesho]

This is all well and good...but when posting your belief, you do not have to belittle or call people stupid for their beliefs. Sure debate all you want, but there is a point when it becomes too personal and insulting. I've said before on the politics thread, I dont feel that either politics or religion threads should be allowed on this forum due to how hateful they can become and most always do...too quickly. Unlike some on this site, I care about people's feelings. Thats all I'm saying...

I find it personally insulting that the religious routinely vilify those who don't share their delusions, with the tacit agreement of media, to the point where politicians have to pander to these beliefs if they are to have even a hope of being elected to a government SPECIFICALLY FORBIDDING religious concerns or agendas in government.

I find offensive the "accepted wisdom" spouted by the religious at every opportunity that atheists are not moral, when in fact the precise opposite is the case, atheists display a far more refined and selfless morality than do the religious.

I find it personally offensive that people COME TO MY HOUSE to try and proselytize their delusions... something atheists are not guilty of.

And I find it offensive that people seem to expect that they can spout off the most inane delusional belief for which they have not one shred of evidence, and DEMAND that their 'belief' is EQUALLY VALID as are idea supported by reason and evidence.

Sorry... if someone thinks they can spout off about the efficacy of Homeopathy and have it taken as if their opinion was valid... I am not gonna accept it.


There is a substantive difference between that which can be demonstrated, and hare brained fantasies of magical powers.
Bullshit is bullshit...

Our civilization, our very LIVES, utterly depend upon our ability to reason and question assumptions... upon our ability to demand proof of which ideas ARE valid, and which are just wishful thinking.

You have refrigerators, computers, hi-def television, MRI and CAT scan machines, vaccines and antibiotics, eyeglasses, central heating and air conditioning, cell phones and a million other REAL miracles that you use blithely without understanding the least bit....

And you give all the glory for your comfy life to an imaginary friend, rather than the scientists, engineers, doctors and THINKERS who ACTUALLY created the comfort and ease you enjoy thru application of intelligence and the dismissal of magical forces as the cause of events.


So, sorry. I really don't give a fuck if I upset people who desperately want to believe they have magical powers, that they factor far larger into the scheme of the universe than they do, or that people who don't ascribe to their particular brand of hallucination are somehow LESSER people deserving of hellfire...

I am sick of religion getting the free ride of NOT having to perform, NOT having to prove and not having its assumptions held to the the same level of scrutiny as perspectives NOT rooted in childish fantasies of eternal life.

No one has shown one shred of evidence in support of a STORY they were brainwashed with in childhood.


The world has become too small, too fast, and too dangerous for us to merely accept wild eyed notions of magical sky daddies... just because believing in them makes some people feel better about dying. ( and feel better about killing, oh, say, innocent Iraqis )

The PC notion that everyone is ENTITLED to their belief is utter nonsense. Its like that idiotic idea that EVERY kid should get a trophy...

You can believe the moon is made of green cheese if you want to... but you will still be, provably, WRONG.

If we applied that PC crap to schooling our children... how could we teach Math or History?

"teacher, I don't believe the holocaust happened"
"teacher, I believe 2 times 2 actually IS 7 "

That is how stupid it is to treat ALL ideas forwarded as if they are equally likely to be true.


If Anyone on the boards is free to Spout their personal beliefs...
then I am free to spout my personal beliefs that your beliefs are unfounded.
Lies, delusions and pure bullshit will not go unchallenged.

Personally, I have no problem with people calling me an idiot, or arguing against my ideas... I am willing to defend my position... and I am willing to concede if my position proves untenable.


But, really...If you don't want to hear how silly your notions are, then don't say silly things in a public place.

In the ecosystem of ideas... only the fittest ideas survive.

 

[jammin]

wow... i sense so much hostility and anger... discussions on politics and religion always seem to bring out the worst in people... can't we all just be nice and get along with each other... peace, love and kumbaya, dudes and dudettes... lol...

 

[OCMuscleJock]

Phil you're a total dick...I really hope you do not reproduce. You must truely be a miserable person to know.

 

[jammin]

lol...

 

[Hairymuscle22]

Believe in reincarnation and you lot should too!The only way to save your worthless souls imo ;-)

 

[B_bi_mmf]

Hey, OCMuscleJock,

I am truly saddened to witness you preaching so loftily against personal insults and then lashing out at Phil in such a despicable, hateful, personal manner.

bi_mmf

This is all well and good...but when posting your belief, you do not have to belittle or call people stupid for their beliefs. Sure debate all you want, but there is a point when it becomes too personal and insulting. I've said before on the politics thread, I dont feel that either politics or religion threads should be allowed on this forum due to how hateful they can become and most always do...too quickly. Unlike some on this site, I care about people's feelings. Thats all I'm saying...

Phil you're a total dick...I really hope you do not reproduce. You must truely be a miserable person to know.