Do you believe Moon landing really happened? "The Survey"

[B_Hickboy]

That would be...cool.

 

[D_Blue_Barry_Eel]

I sure hope the next mission to moon, be it human or robot , they put a flag on board so we can see how flags wave the same as they did on the first visit...but this time in HD.

Hell yes, HD flags. Fuck standard-quality flags.

 

[tamati]

And 3D!
Nasa has some cool mars pics from the rovers in 3D...

 

[monel]

I've got a shit load of fire rockets tied to a metal trash can and an extra strong bicycle helmet. I'm going and I'm taking a flag with me. I saw it in a Bugs Bunny cartoon so fuck the naysayers. I'll show 'emyou what's up doc.

 

[B_Hickboy]

I've got a shit load of fire rockets tied to a metal trash can and an extra strong bicycle helmet. I'm going and I'm taking a flag with me. I saw it in a Bugs Bunny cartoon so fuck the naysayers. I'll show 'emyou what's up doc.

I'd so light that fuse.

 

[monel]

I'd so light that fuse.

I suspect that your intentions aren't to be helpful.

 

[B_Hickboy]

I suspect that your intentions aren't to be helpful.

Anything for laugh, long as it doesn't hurt me.

 

[monel]

Anything for laugh...

That'll make it worth.

 

[B_Hickboy]

I am an army of one.

 

[zephyr808]

I hope you're being sarcastic... I link to a video that PROVES we went to the moon and I state "Pretty sure we went there" to agree with the evidence I presented (who else brought something to the table). And I'm told I'm a skeptic...and my opinion is not warrented. I merely stated, I like skeptics, even if they seem crazy, not that I'm skeptical of the moon landings.

There are lots of people who are skeptical because they have "evidence". Like the flag flapping on the moon when there is no wind, etc etc. It's not great evidence as it is disproved in the video I linked earlier but that's reason enough for someone to be skeptical.

Zeus forbid someone have a difference of opinion.

I got the same treatment on the other moon landing thread, although I went beyond skepticism and said my peace there. What I don't get is the white-hot mob mentality that surfaces when somebody voices an opinion that differs from the norm on this subject. It's kind of like McCarthyism gone haywire, "there's another one, let's get him!" and people take it as though it's a personal affront to their patriotism or belief system that somebody disagrees. I have a couple of very close friends who steadfastly refuse to accept that man evolved from the apes, despite lots of scientific evidence that supports the validity of evolution (which I believe). They cite their own evidence when we discuss the issue, none of us have changed the other's minds, but it's NOT THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD. Sometimes you have to accept that not everybody shares the same belief system as you, like religion and politics, and let it go. If anything, and I bet the friends I mentioned above would agree with this, the more people mock you and ridicule you for something you believe in, or don't believe in this case, the stronger it ultimately makes your willpower to just block out the negative vibe. Look at hardcore right wingers who only believe what they see on Fox news or hear Limbaugh say? I personally believe that Fox news wouldn't know the truth about anything if it bit Rupert himself on the ass, but the louder you scream at them for the lies they are being fed, the more they disbelieve any criticism and accept the information presented by the "trusted" sources. For some reason a lot of Americans fall into this, well it seems like a patriotism mob when you are on the outside of it, a witch hunt where everybody is expected to say and believe exactly the same thing. Post-9/11 and right when the war started in Iraq are two notable examples where I was filled with conflicting emotions about what was happening in the world, but I felt as though I was being force-fed a steady diet of patriotism and propaganda to prevent me from doubting anything the government said. The looks of disgust the "proper" Americans were showing anyone who doubted the awesome awesomeness of the US of A, or even asked questions about it (Dixie Chicks, anyone?) was to be angrily and immediately derided by everybody else. A lot of people seem to have the same kind of visceral reaction to the issue of the moon landing, like the person who doubts it happened has just walked all over Old Glory. If the science someone believes in depends on the concept of nationalism, I see similarities between that and the folks whose religion affects what "science" they believe in.

I feel like I did when I posted on the other thread, just wanted to get a few things out that have been percolating inside of me. I know I started straying from the original point, just like I know hickboy is going to go all hickboy on my ass. :wink: Are you gonna take me out to dinner first?

 

[Necromantic]

@Zephyr808 There is another moon landing thread..? I'm a bit of an amateur astronomer so anything celestial gives me tingles but two threads devoted to a dead horse is an embarrassment of riches. Makes for an interesting read though.

Can`t say I disagree with what you`re saying, I just don`t see how anything can be done about it.

As for evolution: How To Shut Up Pesky Creationists - YouTube

 

[D_Crystallized Ginger]

http://www.lpsg.org/groups/1022-moon+landing+:+the+movie!/

 

[B_Hickboy]

I got the same treatment on the other moon landing thread, although I went beyond skepticism and said my peace there. What I don't get is the white-hot mob mentality that surfaces when somebody voices an opinion that differs from the norm on this subject. It's kind of like McCarthyism gone haywire, "there's another one, let's get him!" and people take it as though it's a personal affront to their patriotism or belief system that somebody disagrees. I have a couple of very close friends who steadfastly refuse to accept that man evolved from the apes, despite lots of scientific evidence that supports the validity of evolution (which I believe). They cite their own evidence when we discuss the issue, none of us have changed the other's minds, but it's NOT THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD. Sometimes you have to accept that not everybody shares the same belief system as you, like religion and politics, and let it go. If anything, and I bet the friends I mentioned above would agree with this, the more people mock you and ridicule you for something you believe in, or don't believe in this case, the stronger it ultimately makes your willpower to just block out the negative vibe. Look at hardcore right wingers who only believe what they see on Fox news or hear Limbaugh say? I personally believe that Fox news wouldn't know the truth about anything if it bit Rupert himself on the ass, but the louder you scream at them for the lies they are being fed, the more they disbelieve any criticism and accept the information presented by the "trusted" sources. For some reason a lot of Americans fall into this, well it seems like a patriotism mob when you are on the outside of it, a witch hunt where everybody is expected to say and believe exactly the same thing. Post-9/11 and right when the war started in Iraq are two notable examples where I was filled with conflicting emotions about what was happening in the world, but I felt as though I was being force-fed a steady diet of patriotism and propaganda to prevent me from doubting anything the government said. The looks of disgust the "proper" Americans were showing anyone who doubted the awesome awesomeness of the US of A, or even asked questions about it (Dixie Chicks, anyone?) was to be angrily and immediately derided by everybody else. A lot of people seem to have the same kind of visceral reaction to the issue of the moon landing, like the person who doubts it happened has just walked all over Old Glory. If the science someone believes in depends on the concept of nationalism, I see similarities between that and the folks whose religion affects what "science" they believe in.

I feel like I did when I posted on the other thread, just wanted to get a few things out that have been percolating inside of me. I know I started straying from the original point, just like I know hickboy is going to go all hickboy on my ass. :wink: Are you gonna take me out to dinner first?

I Don't Care - YouTube

 

[B_Hickboy]

Hot damn. I'm getting up toward $4 here.

 

[B_Nick8]

I got the same treatment on the other moon landing thread, although I went beyond skepticism and said my peace there. What I don't get is the white-hot mob mentality that surfaces when somebody voices an opinion that differs from the norm on this subject. It's kind of like McCarthyism gone haywire, "there's another one, let's get him!" and people take it as though it's a personal affront to their patriotism or belief system that somebody disagrees. I have a couple of very close friends who steadfastly refuse to accept that man evolved from the apes, despite lots of scientific evidence that supports the validity of evolution (which I believe). They cite their own evidence when we discuss the issue, none of us have changed the other's minds, but it's NOT THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD. Sometimes you have to accept that not everybody shares the same belief system as you, like religion and politics, and let it go. If anything, and I bet the friends I mentioned above would agree with this, the more people mock you and ridicule you for something you believe in, or don't believe in this case, the stronger it ultimately makes your willpower to just block out the negative vibe. Look at hardcore right wingers who only believe what they see on Fox news or hear Limbaugh say? I personally believe that Fox news wouldn't know the truth about anything if it bit Rupert himself on the ass, but the louder you scream at them for the lies they are being fed, the more they disbelieve any criticism and accept the information presented by the "trusted" sources. For some reason a lot of Americans fall into this, well it seems like a patriotism mob when you are on the outside of it, a witch hunt where everybody is expected to say and believe exactly the same thing. Post-9/11 and right when the war started in Iraq are two notable examples where I was filled with conflicting emotions about what was happening in the world, but I felt as though I was being force-fed a steady diet of patriotism and propaganda to prevent me from doubting anything the government said. The looks of disgust the "proper" Americans were showing anyone who doubted the awesome awesomeness of the US of A, or even asked questions about it (Dixie Chicks, anyone?) was to be angrily and immediately derided by everybody else. A lot of people seem to have the same kind of visceral reaction to the issue of the moon landing, like the person who doubts it happened has just walked all over Old Glory. If the science someone believes in depends on the concept of nationalism, I see similarities between that and the folks whose religion affects what "science" they believe in.

I feel like I did when I posted on the other thread, just wanted to get a few things out that have been percolating inside of me. I know I started straying from the original point, just like I know hickboy is going to go all hickboy on my ass. :wink: Are you gonna take me out to dinner first?

Until, if and when, you've begun to appreciate the beauty of paragraph indentation, your posts will remain impenetrable and one big why-bother.

 

[Calboner]

I got the same treatment on the other moon landing thread, although I went beyond skepticism and said my peace there. What I don't get is the white-hot mob mentality that surfaces when somebody voices an opinion that differs from the norm on this subject.

Because it is not just a matter of an opinion that differs from the norm but of an opinion that differs from reality. To regard it as a matter of opinion whether the Apollo missions landed astronauts on the moon is as ludicrous as regarding it as a matter of opinion whether there was a civil war in the United States in the 1860s or whether Bucharest is the capital of Romania. There are, no doubt, people who have opinions that "differ from the norm" on such subjects, but they are either ignoramuses or deluded eccentrics. The same in this case. The only difference is that the eccentric opinion has a strong emotional appeal for a lot more people in the case of the moon landings.

It's kind of like McCarthyism gone haywire, "there's another one, let's get him!" and people take it as though it's a personal affront to their patriotism or belief system that somebody disagrees. I have a couple of very close friends who steadfastly refuse to accept that man evolved from the apes, despite lots of scientific evidence that supports the validity of evolution (which I believe). They cite their own evidence when we discuss the issue, none of us have changed the other's minds, but it's NOT THE END OF THE FUCKING WORLD. Sometimes you have to accept that not everybody shares the same belief system as you, like religion and politics, and let it go.

I don't know what "McCarthyism gone haywire" would be, as McCarthyism was already patriotism gone haywire. Setting that aside, I note, once again, that you employ the strategy of reducing conflicts between opinion and fact to mere conflicts between opinions, here under the term "belief systems."

A mental patient may believe that he is Jesus Christ or Napoleon or Michael Jackson. Can I convince him that he is not that person? Most likely not. So, in your terms, there is a conflict of opinions or of belief systems in such a case. But the fact is that the mental patient is deluded, and his opinion is not to be taken seriously except as a manifestation of his condition with which we have to deal in order to deal with him.

If anything, and I bet the friends I mentioned above would agree with this, the more people mock you and ridicule you for something you believe in, or don't believe in this case, the stronger it ultimately makes your willpower to just block out the negative vibe. Look at hardcore right wingers who only believe what they see on Fox news or hear Limbaugh say? I personally believe that Fox news wouldn't know the truth about anything if it bit Rupert himself on the ass, but the louder you scream at them for the lies they are being fed, the more they disbelieve any criticism and accept the information presented by the "trusted" sources.

Actually, it doesn't take ridicule. I have read (I don't recall where, but will see if I can find the sources again) about studies that show that even if you quite dispassionately present people who have weird beliefs with evidence that contradicts those beliefs, they will become all the more firmly entrenched in them. My point is that persuading people to give up their delusions is an extremely difficult task, for which refraining from ridicule and derision is not nearly a sufficient means.

For some reason a lot of Americans fall into this, well it seems like a patriotism mob when you are on the outside of it, a witch hunt where everybody is expected to say and believe exactly the same thing. Post-9/11 and right when the war started in Iraq are two notable examples where I was filled with conflicting emotions about what was happening in the world, but I felt as though I was being force-fed a steady diet of patriotism and propaganda to prevent me from doubting anything the government said. The looks of disgust the "proper" Americans were showing anyone who doubted the awesome awesomeness of the US of A, or even asked questions about it (Dixie Chicks, anyone?) was to be angrily and immediately derided by everybody else.

I remember all that. There were plenty of Americans who were no part of that mob.

A lot of people seem to have the same kind of visceral reaction to the issue of the moon landing, like the person who doubts it happened has just walked all over Old Glory. If the science someone believes in depends on the concept of nationalism, I see similarities between that and the folks whose religion affects what "science" they believe in.

I didn't get this point until now. So your idea is that those who despise moon-landing-hoax believers do so from American patriotism? We despise hoax believers because they use distorted and dishonest reasoning to justify preposterous beliefs; because when one of their bad arguments is refuted they merely move on to another bad argument for the moment, and then eventually repeat the first bad argument; because they feign to offer evidence for their preposterous beliefs, but when the fallacies in their arguments are pointed out they never admit it; because they spread as well as exemplify ignorance, delusion, and intellectual corruption. Some people in this thread may have patriotic motives as well, but these motives are, I believe, the common and predominant ones.

 

[D_Crystallized Ginger]

Because it is not just a matter of an opinion that differs from the norm but of an opinion that differs from reality. To regard it as a matter of opinion whether the Apollo missions landed astronauts on the moon is as ludicrous as regarding it as a matter of opinion whether there was a civil war in the United States in the 1860s or whether Bucharest is the capital of Romania. There are, no doubt, people who have opinions that "differ from the norm" on such subjects, but they are either ignoramuses or deluded eccentrics. The same in this case. The only difference is that the eccentric opinion has a strong emotional appeal for a lot more people in the case of the moon landings.

I don't know what "McCarthyism gone haywire" would be, as McCarthyism was already patriotism gone haywire. Setting that aside, I note, once again, that you employ the strategy of reducing conflicts between opinion and fact to mere conflicts between opinions, here under the term "belief systems."

A mental patient may believe that he is Jesus Christ or Napoleon or Michael Jackson. Can I convince him that he is not that person? Most likely not. So, in your terms, there is a conflict of opinions or of belief systems in such a case. But the fact is that the mental patient is deluded, and his opinion is not to be taken seriously except as a manifestation of his condition with which we have to deal in order to deal with him.

Actually, it doesn't take ridicule. I have read (I don't recall where, but will see if I can find the sources again) about studies that show that even if you quite dispassionately present people who have weird beliefs with evidence that contradicts those beliefs, they will become all the more firmly entrenched in them. My point is that persuading people to give up their delusions is an extremely difficult task, for which refraining from ridicule and derision is not nearly a sufficient means.

I remember all that. There were plenty of Americans who were no part of that mob.

I didn't get this point until now. So your idea is that those who despise moon-landing-hoax believers do so from American patriotism? We despise hoax believers because they use distorted and dishonest reasoning to justify preposterous beliefs; because when one of their bad arguments is refuted they merely move on to another bad argument for the moment, and then eventually repeat the first bad argument; because they feign to offer evidence for their preposterous beliefs, but when the fallacies in their arguments are pointed out they never admit it; because they spread as well as exemplify ignorance, delusion, and intellectual corruption. Some people in this thread may have patriotic motives as well, but these motives are, I believe, the common and predominant ones.

weren t u who believed in the hoax or is it just me remembering bad??

 

[zephyr808]

Necromantic, the other thread I mentioned is here. Thanks for the youtube link about creationism, that was informative. Although I doubt it would sway a creationist from their beliefs, no matter how legitimate the scientific evidence appears. I mean, just in general terms, how often are you able to convince someone to change their minds about ANYTHING these days? The louder someone yells at me, the more insulting or condescending their comments, the more I just tune it out. Granted, I am a bit whack, I own this and I've known it for years and just accept it as part of my life, and luckily I guess I'm a functioning whack in that I don't need any pills or therapy to help me live a normal, satisfying life. I did on this thread what I did on the other one, said my peace and then just let it go. But I wanted to reply to your comment, and a few others before I move on to large penises and such...

Calboner, I appreciate the time you took to reply to my run-on paragraph that I typed up last night when I was high, the same one that Nick8 was too irritated or otherwise occupied to try and decipher (grammar police! run!!)(oh, and btw nick, don't ever read Jack Kerouac's "On The Road" in its original scroll form, it will drive you crazy!). It made sense to me last night, and the main point I was trying to get at was that some people take it personally when someone else disagrees with them about what the "facts" are. I didn't set out to try and convince you what I believe, I have as much a right to post on here as anyone else. And yes, you or anyone else has the right to call me an idiot or try to convince me that my facts are wrong, and yes, I probably set up a straw man of some kind in what I was trying to say by confusing the concepts of fact, opinion and beliefs. I have conspiracy theories about a number of things, or maybe the better way to say it is that the list of things I accept as 100% truth is very short. I don't put it past anybody or anything to lie and then go to great lengths to convince me and everyone else that the lie is in fact true, government and religion especially. And then I went off on the patriotism tangent, which as I said made sense to me when I read some of the more inflammatory remarks on here. Not yours, necessarily, but just in general. I won't go looking for it, but someone posted on this thread how he was born in 1967 or so, and so he "knows" it happened (I guess because he saw it on TV?) and it reminded me of all the real and phony patriotic crap from the past 10 years and got me in the mood to type.

Mystic Wolf, you have taken a lot of grief from folks who would have preferred the subject never be brought up, for a variety of reasons. Calboner argued that the moon landing did happen on the other thread, and he has done so again on this one. My advice to you is to just believe what you choose to believe, even in the face of criticism and name-calling. My hunch is that everyone who reads this will do the same, no matter which side they fall on.

 

[vibrator]

I believe it.

 

[Calboner]

weren t u who believed in the hoax or is it just me remembering bad??

Your memory is very bad indeed! Here are some samples of my posts in the previous thread on this topic:

I hope everyone will notice the pattern here. Refuting the arguments of the hoax believers, as was done earlier in this thread, has no effect on them because they can always come up with more. They seem to think that an endless stream of bad arguments constitutes a good argument.

What you want to infer from the fact that some proportion of the population believes something I am not sure. To me, the interest of such figures is that they raise alarms. The incidence of wacko beliefs is always far higher than one would wish.

What appalls me is that people are willing to embrace a belief that is not only wildly improbable but obnoxious and outrageous, while showing no interest whatever in subjecting that belief to objective critical examination. Some conspiracy theory gets a grip on you and all that you are interested in is piling up the anecdotes and the arguments that you take to support it, rather than considering whether the anecdotes really do support the case and whether the arguments stand up to examination. The measure of the probability of a belief is how well it squares with the available evidence and with everything else that we know about how the world works, not how much it appeals to one's sense of being in on a secret or being in bold defiance of common opinion.