Do you know what i say to pro-lifers?

10silverdollars

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Oh, Tripey!

Tripod wrote:
No evidence? What the fuck are you talking about? I have actually lived a full life and known quite a few women who've had abortions that I trust 100%. Abortions aren't some secret procedure that nobody can learn about... it's common fucking knowledge of what the procedure entails and NOBODY even remotely enjoys them or even feels ambivalent towards abortion. It's a brutal experience that women carry with them for the rest of their lives.

===>Anecdotal evidence is bullshit, Tripey, and you know it. Your own experience and that of your friends is not a yardstick for the rest of humanity.

Tripod wrote:
Of course, you live in a pro-life fantasy world where "loose" women run around getting pregnant several times a year and gleefully have abortions whenever they feel like having one. It's a sick fantasy world but one that is no doubt reinforced by your peers/family/church/websites/groups that you belong to... you all have no clue what it's like to live in the real world and have zero empathy for people less fortunate than you. But it's all about elevating yourself to the status of a good person while you look down on others while calling them barbaric and inferior. Same old same old, you're predictable and tiring.[/QUOTE]

===>You don't know one fucking thing about the world I live in, and you are again making unwarranted ASSumptions. But then, that's who you are and what you do repeatedly.

===> If (as you write) you 'live in the real world and have zero empathy for people less fortunate than you', then you have shot yourself in the foot once again by saying that you have no empathy for people less fortunate than you. Wow.

This is the last time I reply to your posts, and I've put you on 'Ignore'.

I won't pray for you, but I do hope you get well--check out the free mental health clinics in your area. Pin a note to your shirt that requests you be checked out for hebephrenia, and do take a cab--don't try to drive to a clinic.

Sincerely and as above,
The monkey with no class or social graces
.
 

KennF

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I'm enjoying watching the interplay, but I should point out, that this:

By killing the fetus and harvesting their bodies for fu&King money.

doesn't really help you're argument. This is a "talking point" taken out of context and spun for media sound bites.

Planned Parenthood donates tissue to medical research at the request and permission of the people they treat in their clinics. And that the transportation costs (air/ground shipping, packing, etc), which can be very expensive, are reimbursed by the receiving research center(s).

But, it sounds more dramatic to spin that into the sound bite of "harvesting bodies for money".
 

10silverdollars

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Clint wrote
For liberals who run around and chastise everyone else it is amazing that they would condone abortion. It is truly baffling how the liberal mind works. So we kill a fetus but keep a criminal, we chastise police for doing their job but applaud PP for selling organs, they put a bakery out of business because they would not make a wedding cake for a gay couple, yet late term abortion due to a change of mind is just great. Liberals are some sick minded people. They spit on returning military and kiss the ass of Sharpton. They chant for the death of police officers but use the law to force business owners to provide goods. Liberal is a sickness. Let's just make Utah the liberal state. Build a wall and put all the liberals there. I would give it less than 5 years and they would all be extinct.

===>This is a fucking stupid, nay, insane, rant. I think you and Tripod need to hit the Mental Health Clinic together. No one carries on here like the two of you.
Clinton, you should really need to get some stitches in that open wound under your nose and get some rest.
 

ClintHardBall

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So whats going to happen when the truth is exposed and PP has profited off the selling of baby body parts. DID YOU GET THAT BABY BODY PARTS. Hell we should start selling parts of death row inmates. Might be a revenue stream. Oh wait we can't do that those criminals have rights. This argument is soooo full of shit and outright hypocritical. To a liberal life means nothing at all.
 

KennF

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So whats going to happen when the truth is exposed and PP has profited off the selling of baby body parts. DID YOU GET THAT BABY BODY PARTS.
You might need to tone down your rhetoric. Your arguments and comments read hollow and more like rants. This is still LPSG, and the S is for support. If you want to rant, that's okay, too. But, it makes it more difficult to take serious.

Now, for your comment. you're assuming a conspiracy theory or watched the movie COMA as a documentary.

It doesn't make sense. If you assumed your theory true, then you would also have to assume that the "profit" would be greater than (a) their entire business model throughout the country and (b) their exposure to jail time. The cost-benefit analysis is off. And, if anything, you can't say that Planned Parenthood doesn't consider the cost-benefit. Even though they evaluate it differently than you do.

It is more plausible that the story is spin as I described earlier.


Hell we should start selling parts of death row inmates. Might be a revenue stream.

Actually, there is the same amount to option to death row inmates donating their organs, after death, as there are for anyone else. They are welcome to donate their organs. And, I would expect the prison to be reimbursed for the costs of transportation.
 

KennF

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Still, not stating my opinion on the matter one way or the other, just addressing your argument.

You are making an assumption that the fetus is cognitive enough to make or understand choice.

You can make that assumption, but you should expect that people will refute that. It is the core of one of the argument... whether a fetus is a human being or a biomass of tissue and/or at what point that change happens.
 
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Animosity? Yeah i can see that. And i can understand it too. It's more than a little irritating to hear people talk about how precious life is then turn around and call that very same life expendable. It's all life. No matter what age or background. The same preciousness should be said for all. It isn't though. That preciousness has requirements. Meaning the whole label of pro-life is misleading at best. More like pro-specific regulated life.

I don't think it's degrading the value of children either. If anything it's the exact opposite. Take the housing bubble for instance. Many would say that people should not have bought a house they couldn't afford. I agree. Same goes for children. There aren't that many loving parents out there. Or at least i don't think there are. America specifically hasn't really done a good job at protecting kids in foster homes and when it comes to the economy and jobs well in some places having a child when you can't afford or don't want them is actively worse than an abortion.

It doesn't imply that parents should escape responsibility. It's more of a question. As in "well you take care of him or her then".

Seriously. Do you know what it's like to live in foster care? Or to grow up in poverty? Or to be forced to raise a child? No really. What'll happen to the kid? How will they survive in a world full of people that want to gut every last government benefit available to them? I don't know, the OP's "you raise the fucking kid" has some serious teeth behind it. Cause really. Who will?

--------------

My views regarding abortion are more in line with the concept that each child has the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness (actualization). I have no problems with abortion when the mother’s health is at stake or the child has significant developmental issue. I have family members who were forced to make these decisions and followed through with great support.

In fact, I do have first hand knowledge regarding childhood poverty, and with children growing up with out parents. However the concept of “forced’ parenting leaves me a bit confused.

As I understand your comments, you are trying to view the abortion issue from the elevated position of human overpopulation. If that were your position, then I would agree that your emphasis on humanity rather than on the individual could be instructive. But I would caution that this perspective often leads to unattainable goals and miss placed values.

If you believe that unborn children are “not children”, then you and I will not have much to build on.

Since it is my judgment that unborn children should have individual rights, then I hold those who created this life responsible for the child’s success as a fulfilled individual. The mother may be the sole parent through artificial insemination or there may have been a male/female sex act involved in the child’s creation. It may be that all the mother (or mother/father) can do is birth the child and then leave it with the local Fire Station. Or they may choose to raise the child in the best fashion they can provide. I doubt most children hold it against their parent(s) for being poor. In fact many children raised in poverty (in the US) honor their parents for their struggle and dedication.



In my state you are responsible for driving without being intoxicated. If you are arrested for a DWI you are responsible. You participated in the behavior and will generally face financial cost and court judgments. Interestingly enough these cost often equate to about the same amount that it would cost to carry a child to term. And with state assistance the cost are much less.



I see no reason to value a child’s life with any less responsibility and process than a personal DWI. You (the parents) did it; there is now a victim (a child) involved so there is a price to pay. If you had caused a traffic death while drunk, do you think you should be relieved of any responsibility just because (in your opinion) there are too many drivers on the road and the world would be better off if you terminate a few of them?
 
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temptotalk

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Oh, Tripey!

Tripod wrote:
No evidence? What the fuck are you talking about? I have actually lived a full life and known quite a few women who've had abortions that I trust 100%. Abortions aren't some secret procedure that nobody can learn about... it's common fucking knowledge of what the procedure entails and NOBODY even remotely enjoys them or even feels ambivalent towards abortion. It's a brutal experience that women carry with them for the rest of their lives.

===>Anecdotal evidence is bullshit, Tripey, and you know it. Your own experience and that of your friends is not a yardstick for the rest of humanity.

Tripod wrote:
Of course, you live in a pro-life fantasy world where "loose" women run around getting pregnant several times a year and gleefully have abortions whenever they feel like having one. It's a sick fantasy world but one that is no doubt reinforced by your peers/family/church/websites/groups that you belong to... you all have no clue what it's like to live in the real world and have zero empathy for people less fortunate than you. But it's all about elevating yourself to the status of a good person while you look down on others while calling them barbaric and inferior. Same old same old, you're predictable and tiring.

===>You don't know one fucking thing about the world I live in, and you are again making unwarranted ASSumptions. But then, that's who you are and what you do repeatedly.

===> If (as you write) you 'live in the real world and have zero empathy for people less fortunate than you', then you have shot yourself in the foot once again by saying that you have no empathy for people less fortunate than you. Wow.

This is the last time I reply to your posts, and I've put you on 'Ignore'.

I won't pray for you, but I do hope you get well--check out the free mental health clinics in your area. Pin a note to your shirt that requests you be checked out for hebephrenia, and do take a cab--don't try to drive to a clinic.

Sincerely and as above,
The monkey with no class or social graces
.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry but if him saying things either from his experiences or from others doesn't count then neither does the opposite. Meaning anything you can toss up to prove that he's incorrect is also anecdotal evidence. What does happen though is women are publicly shamed when it comes to abortion. So if you want a little evidence toward what tripod is saying you can look to those attempting to make women that get abortions into merciless murders that just wanna potty all the time potty all the time. Aka peer pressure.
--------------

My views regarding abortion are more in line with the concept that each child has the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness (actualization). I have no problems with abortion when the mother’s health is at stake or the child has significant developmental issue. I have family members who were forced to make these decisions and followed through with great support.

In fact, I do have first hand knowledge regarding childhood poverty, and with children growing up with out parents. However the concept of “forced’ parenting leaves me a bit confused.

As I understand your comments, you are trying to view the abortion issue from the elevated position of human overpopulation. If that were your position, then I would agree that your emphasis on humanity rather than on the individual could be instructive. But I would caution that this perspective often leads to unattainable goals and miss placed values.

If you believe that unborn children are “not children”, then you and I will not have much to build on.

Since it is my judgment that unborn children should have individual rights, then I hold those who created this life responsible for the child’s success as a fulfilled individual. The mother may be the sole parent through artificial insemination or there may have been a male/female sex act involved in the child’s creation. It may be that all the mother (or mother/father) can do is birth the child and then leave it with the local Fire Station. Or they may choose to raise the child in the best fashion they can provide. I doubt most children hold it against their parent(s) for being poor. In fact many children raised in poverty (in the US) honor their parents for their struggle and dedication.



In my state you are responsible for driving without being intoxicated. If you are arrested for a DWI you are responsible. You participated in the behavior and will generally face financial cost and court judgments. Interestingly enough these cost often equate to about the same amount that it would cost to carry a child to term. And with state assistance the cost are much less.



I see no reason to value a child’s life with any less responsibility and process than a personal DWI. You (the parents) did it; there is now a victim (a child) involved so there is a price to pay. If you had caused a traffic death while drunk, do you think you should be relieved of any responsibility just because (in your opinion) there are too many drivers on the road and the world would be better off if you terminate a few of them?

First let me say that i don't know what your views are past the point of children. And most of what i said wasn't actually directed at you because of that fact. As it stands, we are in agreement. I also believe that every child should as well. I think as per usual with this topic we divert at what exactly constitutes as a child. As you said, that is the end of the conversation. And i'm ok with that. So i'll just talk about the other points.

Ultimately no one with a child will ever openly say they were forced to have them. That just isn't seen across the board as the right way to go. This is based on opinion so i could be wrong but i highly doubt any adult in their right minds would, after having had a kid, turn around and say they were forced to have them. When it comes to anti-abortion though the idea of forced parenting still stands in its most general of terms. And i think you made that case within your post.

It's about shared responsibility. It takes a village and all that. I am emphasizing humanity though. As it stands america feels like it cannot take on any more takers. Many americans think there isn't enough food, jobs, housing or just basic resources available for anyone else. I don't think thats true but i can't ignore them when they say it. Cause it means one less person to help those children as they get older. That end of the discussion is very complicated so i'll just leave it there. All in all though it isn't like a dwi. Far from it. One goes on your record while the other is a living breathing human being with all sorts of fate lines that once again is way too complicated to just mention on one post.
 

temptotalk

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--------------

My views regarding abortion are more in line with the concept that each child has the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness (actualization). I have no problems with abortion when the mother’s health is at stake or the child has significant developmental issue. I have family members who were forced to make these decisions and followed through with great support.

In fact, I do have first hand knowledge regarding childhood poverty, and with children growing up with out parents. However the concept of “forced’ parenting leaves me a bit confused.

As I understand your comments, you are trying to view the abortion issue from the elevated position of human overpopulation. If that were your position, then I would agree that your emphasis on humanity rather than on the individual could be instructive. But I would caution that this perspective often leads to unattainable goals and miss placed values.

If you believe that unborn children are “not children”, then you and I will not have much to build on.

Since it is my judgment that unborn children should have individual rights, then I hold those who created this life responsible for the child’s success as a fulfilled individual. The mother may be the sole parent through artificial insemination or there may have been a male/female sex act involved in the child’s creation. It may be that all the mother (or mother/father) can do is birth the child and then leave it with the local Fire Station. Or they may choose to raise the child in the best fashion they can provide. I doubt most children hold it against their parent(s) for being poor. In fact many children raised in poverty (in the US) honor their parents for their struggle and dedication.



In my state you are responsible for driving without being intoxicated. If you are arrested for a DWI you are responsible. You participated in the behavior and will generally face financial cost and court judgments. Interestingly enough these cost often equate to about the same amount that it would cost to carry a child to term. And with state assistance the cost are much less.



I see no reason to value a child’s life with any less responsibility and process than a personal DWI. You (the parents) did it; there is now a victim (a child) involved so there is a price to pay. If you had caused a traffic death while drunk, do you think you should be relieved of any responsibility just because (in your opinion) there are too many drivers on the road and the world would be better off if you terminate a few of them?

Can't edit. And i read your post very quickly but i made a mistake. If a dwi includes the death of a person then yes it does change the situation. It still isn't the same though. Aside from the fact that it implies wrong doing and places a judgement on the woman it doesn't take into account the part of this you've decided not to talk about. So no still not like a dwi.
 

10silverdollars

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Levi101, re
'Since it is my judgment that unborn children should have individual rights'

I understand this is what you believe, BUT
1. a fetus has not been legally defined
a. as a child or a person, and consequently
b. as having legal rights.
2. an 'unborn child' is a term that US law does not recognize.

I don't mean to be a sophist, but
if you accept the validity of word coinages like 'unborn',
are we, the living, the 'undead'?

I don't know if there will ever be an agreement between religion and civil law about when when life begins. Most countries' legal systems have, for a host of reasons, have accepted that
a human life begins at birth and
is then a person endowed with legal rights.
 

KennF

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1. a fetus has not been legally defined
a. as a child or a person, and consequently
b. as having legal rights.

If we are using a legal interpretation, then you should also agree that the government has a recognizable interest in its 'future citizen' whether or not they are born yet. It has the duty to reasonably protect the health and safety of those who cannot, for some reason, protect themselves; and; must weigh those interests against the rights of its 'current citizen'.

People can disagree and (a) where that balance lies; and (b) at what point the 'future' becomes 'current'.

My views regarding abortion are more in line with the concept that each child has the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness (actualization).

While I respect this view, I have a problem with its implementation and the definition has a practical weakness. Many of the rights, and some argue all of them, do require some positive assertment. For example, we cannot wait to have the 'unborn child' choose whether to be born naturally or via cesarean section. The 'unborn child' did not choose to "life" in the first place, that decision was imposed upon them.

And adopting the view that all 'unborn child[ren]' have these rights requires that a guardian with, potentially the power of life and death, be assigned until they can assert their own rights.

The logical choice would be the mother, and that doesn't resolve the issue, since the mother can choose to abort.
Alternatively, we have to deny the mother her rights in order to assert the 'unborn child' their rights assuming they want to assert their right to "life".

For me, that seems circular.
 

10silverdollars

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If we are using a legal interpretation, then you should also agree that the government has a recognizable interest in its 'future citizen' whether or not they are born yet. It has the duty to reasonably protect the health and safety of those who cannot, for some reason, protect themselves; and; must weigh those interests against the rights of its 'current citizen'.

People can disagree and (a) where that balance lies; and (b) at what point the 'future' becomes 'current'.



While I respect this view, I have a problem with its implementation and the definition has a practical weakness. Many of the rights, and some argue all of them, do require some positive assertment. For example, we cannot wait to have the 'unborn child' choose whether to be born naturally or via cesarean section. The 'unborn child' did not choose to "life" in the first place, that decision was imposed upon them.

And adopting the view that all 'unborn child[ren]' have these rights requires that a guardian with, potentially the power of life and death, be assigned until they can assert their own rights.

The logical choice would be the mother, and that doesn't resolve the issue, since the mother can choose to abort.
Alternatively, we have to deny the mother her rights in order to assert the 'unborn child' their rights assuming they want to assert their right to "life".

For me, that seems circular.

Guys, this is my last post in this thread.

Just a few comments to which I expect no reply.

I hate to be hard, But there's an old saying 'Don't count your chickens before they hatch.'

I think in all of your arguments there's a species bias that favors (and makes 'special') humans . I don't see us, given our moral and historical behavior as a species, as something special or wonderful.
Gestating rats have unborn babies, too.

Just sayin'.
 
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The logical choice would be the mother, and that doesn't resolve the issue, since the mother can choose to abort.
Alternatively, we have to deny the mother her rights in order to assert the 'unborn child' their rights assuming they want to assert their right to "life".

This is an interesting observation. But haven't you just described one (popular) perspective on motherhood and responsibility. I disagree with it since it does not emphasize responsibility, but legitimizes the personal ultimate preference of the mother regardless of how well it has been thought out.

It is not a question of denying the mother her rights. The primary decisions surrounding abortion is for those who are the child’s protector(s) and grantor(s) of life to make responsible decisions on behalf of the child. These decisions should occur before birth and extend into maturity. This is not a circular path unless the focus of a child’s protector(s) moves away from the child’s best interest as may occur when the mother’s rights are consistently made paramount over those of the child.

No one said responsibility was easy, especially when it is not in line with ones own desires. But any parent of a prenatal child who is considering abortion must ask him/her self what values they hold that justify taking a (this) life. Or asking, “what is more important to me than the life of my child? I am not saying that a defensible reason does not exist. But if it is your kid, you can’t responsibly escape the challenge of weighing the circumstances, making a decision, and accepting the consequences of that decision.
 
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Boobalaa

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So you envision a type of inquisition made up of "child protectors" Do you know anyone who works for a county child protective services agency? Back in the day, when I was idealistic, I wanted to work at "CPS" in Oregon. I did an internship there and my CaseWorker/Mentor didn't hold anything back, "you do not want to do this job" .
Your idea is an "Unborn Child's Protective Service" Can you imagine the bureaucracy? Sounds like a good idea for a Terry Gilliam movie.
 

malakos

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I agree that in cases of rape and a confirmed medical condition there should be the option for abortion.

Rape? Why? Why should the unborn have to suffer the consequences of the rape? They are no more deserving of it than their mother is.

Can we now finally defund Planned Parenthood.

That would be awesome, but I won't hold my breath.