Do you know your ENGLISH GRAMMAR!?

[D_alex8]

I surprised that no one is questioning the internal question mark in the quotation. While contestable, there are certainly many house stylebooks that would rule such punctuation outmoded. At that point, the difference between "said" and "asked" becomes important.

"A question without a question mark is like a man without a penis."

[Alex8, circa 2006]

 

[fortiesfun]

"A question without a question mark is like a man without a penis."

"A question without a question mark is like a man without a penis," said Alex8.

An attributed declarative statement without a period is good grammar inside quotation marks. There are many publishers that would deem the same to be true for questions in the same circumstance. While contestable, as I said, it wouldn't get by my editor without a challenge.

 

[D_alex8]

While contestable, as I said, it wouldn't get by my editor without a challenge.

This is one of several examples of the removal of punctuation points which have their origin as a space-saving device in journalese. I don't think that your editor would get on very well with me, somehow, if s/he wishes to assert journalistic abbreviation as a norm.

 

[D_Sheffield Thongbynder]

"A question without a question mark is like a man without a penis."
"A question without a question mark is like a man without a penis," said Alex8.

This remind sme of the gist of the old Winston cigarette ads: What do you want, good grammar or a big dick? In advertising, everything seems to have a disjunctive choice.

 

[DC_DEEP]

One of my benchmarks for online "dating" so far is the word "discreet". If it's spelled "discrete" (or "discret", et al), it's a turn off.

Discreet = be cool. Discrete = individual components.

I don't understand why it is a turn-off for you, if a man wants you to be individual parts.

 

[Lordpendragon]

"Hello there, John." said Daisy "Did you have a nice week?"

"Daisy, fuck off!" said John.

What a grumpy old twat John is, children.

 

[B_Hickboy]

None of them is exactly right.

 

[snobbes]

Vatt hass diss tu du vidd bigg dikks?

 

[D_alex8]

"Hello there, John." said Daisy "Did you have a nice week?"

"Hello there, John," said Daisy. "Did you have a nice week?"

OR

"Hello there, John," said Daisy, "did you have a nice week?"



Eggcorns ahoy! :biggrin1:

Vatt hass diss tu du vidd bigg dikks?

Herzlich willkommen bei Et Cetera, Et Cetera. In diesem Forum geht es um "Off-topic postings, current events, rants and raves..." :tongue: :biggrin1:

 

[Lordpendragon]

"Hello there, John," said Daisy. "Did you have a nice week?"

OR

"Hello there, John," said Daisy, "did you have a nice week?"



Eggcorns ahoy! :biggrin1:

Got the grumpy old twat right though.

"Oy, twat. Get laid last week then?" grunted Daisy.

I just know that this one is coming back.

Am I bovered?

 

[Aloha!]

...Well...if the question was retorical then there wouldn't be the inflection one normally associates with a question hus making the "asked" or "said" issue pointless.



Besides, people are having trouble with your and you're...I'd not worry about one little thing

With the statement "When you see me, do you smile, and love me?" the comma before "and" is incorrect because you're not listing, so the and doesn't need a comma...that and you're not separating two unrelated ideas with a conjunction, and I like pears.

 

[D_alex8]

...Well...if the question was retorical then there wouldn't be the inflection one normally associates with a question hus making the "asked" or "said" issue pointless.

Lucky it wasn't a thread about spelling and typos, really. :tongue: :biggrin1:

Apart from that: "if the question were rhetorical", please.

 

[Lordpendragon]

Lucky that this isn't a thread about spelling and typos. Really. :tongue: :biggrin1:

Apart from that: "If the question were rhetorical", please.

 

[Aloha!]

Oh, hush, it's 6:00 in the morning and I haven't had caffeine yet...

 

[Lordpendragon]

Oh, hush, it's 6:00 in the morning and I haven't had caffeine yet...

Hush already - we're having our siestas in Europe. :smile:

 

[Aloha!]

Well...bully for you...

 

[fortiesfun]

This is one of several examples of the removal of punctuation points which have their origin as a space-saving device in journalese. I don't think that your editor would get on very well with me, somehow, if s/he wishes to assert journalistic abbreviation as a norm.

Ah, the irony that I intended to support Alex8's argument that none of the choices is correct only to find myself at odds only with him. *sigh*

Still, journalistic abbreviation has become the norm, at least if you have an interest in getting into print instead of being right. Especially in the case of dialogue, I don't know of a major publishing house that now allows the proliferation of punctuation with which I was raised.

Alex8, you seem already to accept the degree of journalistic abbreviation implied by the absent connecting comma. Well before you were born, I acknowledge, I was taught the proper form for the example sentence was as follows:

"Hello there, John. Did you have a nice week?", said Daisy.

In those days it was unacceptable that the attributing phrase could just hang out there with no connecting punctuation. Of course, the final comma long ago died a desperate death by journalese. That deletion you seem to accept without question.

Now we are left with an ugly typographical problem. I am quick to acknowledge that it is usually edited by recasting the sentence in some form that plants the attribution earlier. (I think this is the point of your post #49.) That leaves the question mark at the end of the quotation and the sentence. It doesn't so much solve the issue as dodge it, but it is the usual answer.

However, if one insisted on this phrasing form (because the rhythm was important, for example) I contend that most houses would insist on the comma rather than the question mark. The editor may run afoul of your exacting standards, but editors always win. :smile:

I fear you, but not nearly so much as I fear the red pen of the copy editor. Three scholarly books from a respected academic press later, I've never had my editor insert punctuation but she has made journalistic deletions by the thousands.

 

[Sklar]

It's funny. I have my college degree in English. I was going to be a creative writer. My English and grammer were above repoach.

Then I found the Internet.

Then I found chat rooms.

Then I found forums.

Then I found out that people actually became offended when I used proper English and grammer.

I made the tragic mistake of "dumbing" down my responses and grammer style to fit in with what others found more acceptable.

I am firmly of the mindset that the Internet and computers are the leading cause of the degredation of English (and probably other languages as well but since I don't know other languages I am sticking with English (a side to my side here I was also taught that when using paranthesis to NEVER use any punctuation marks in them)).

With the rise of computer programs that automatically correct grammer and spelling there is no real need for people to actually go out and learn the proper use of grammer and spelling.

For example, I see men and women of all ages get the following confused:

Their

They're

There

Chat rooms, I believe, are like Canaries to the English language. What we see reflected in them, is where the general population is going.

I shudder to think of what it is going to be like in just 5 years of public school funding cuts.

Which brings me to a point that is going to take the thread off topic (just a bit).

I firmly believe that one of the main reasons college education is so expensive is that Freshman students have to go back and either learn OR relearn skills that should have been ingrained by Freshman high school.

We're graduating a crop of students each year with the bar set lower and lower and the colleges have to step up and do the job that high schools have dropped.

*rant done*

Back on topic.

We don't need to worry about no child left behind. All the children were left behind.

 

[B_Stronzo]

Eradicating clumsiness is surely legitimate.

In all my schooling in this language this sentiment was as important as subject, agreement, verb tense, or structure for that matter.

COLJohn?

Having been responsible for editing for twenty years and now teaching English, I can say with authority that the number of Americans who have mastered grammar/usage/punctuation has declined significantly in the past twenty-five years. Matters of correctness in writing seem to be passe. I think the infamous publication "Students' Rights to Their Own Language" accelerated the decline. Since then, the natural changes in usage that keep the language viable have been lumped in with a discouraging disregard for standard English. It's rare that I receive a paper free of errors.

Agreed. Keep up the good work.

It's funny. I have my college degree in English. I was going to be a creative writer. My English and grammer were above repoach.

 

[D_alex8]

Ah, the irony that I intended to support Alex8's argument that none of the choices is correct only to find myself at odds only with him. *sigh*

Surely that was the point, though, honeybritches? That in arguing every little possible error to death, the only just conclusion would be for us all to end up at loggerheads over the 'correct' use of each word and each punctuation point in every sentence? :wink:

Still, journalistic abbreviation has become the norm, at least if you have an interest in getting into print instead of being right. Especially in the case of dialogue, I don't know of a major publishing house that now allows the proliferation of punctuation with which I was raised.

I think it's fair to say that dialogue seldom features in anything that I publish. I shall have to insert some willy-nilly into my next piece to see whether or not I can kill my editor with the shock. :saevil:

In those days it was unacceptable that the attributing phrase could just hang out there with no connecting punctuation. Of course, the final comma long ago died a desperate death by journalese. That deletion you seem to accept without question.

I'm quite happy to sit on either side of the fence, depending on the house stylesheet - so long as the mofos are publishing me in the first place! - and on whether my length-limit is stated in words or in characters. Journalese positively overwhelms matters if I am limited by characters... although admittedly, the latter type of length-limit is more common in German, in order to stop people trying to get away with compound nouns the length of their arm.

(I think this is the point of your post #49.) That leaves the question mark at the end of the quotation and the sentence. It doesn't so much solve the issue as dodge it, but it is the usual answer.

If one feels overwhelmed by doubt as the author, then one can be sure that numerous readers will likewise feel uncomfortable when they hit a questionable usage. So dodging is always the most efficacious solution (cop-out? ) in order to eradicate such discomfort before it is given the chance to arise. It reminds me of the (doubtless apocryphal) tale of the farmer who wanted to purchase two mongooses to deal with vermin on his farm; unable to decide on which plural form might be correct, he finally wrote to his supplier, "Could you please send me a mongoose? Actually, while you're at it, send me two."

The editor may run afoul of your exacting standards, but editors always win. :smile:

I send them lists of all the errors they've put into works through their 'corrective' efforts, both factual and style-wise. They just love me. Actually, they always write back with a lengthy list of (frighteningly hollow) excuses as to why they decided to alter the spelling of a proper name which could finally have been spelt correctly for the first time in print since 1907, or why they decided to change the content of a quotation for something essentially spurious, etc. *removes shawl of bitterness at this juncture* :wink:

I fear you

You know that I consider those words as close to a declaration of love as could ever be desired, I trust? :saevil: :spank: