Do You Look Like a Sucker?

[13788]

hung_big:

Originally posted by madame_zora@Jun 24 2005, 03:40 AM
Wow, I've never considered being homeless a bad habit. If you are referring to drugs, I am certain I am more sympathetic to that than your average bear because of my own experience with alcoholism, I DON'T see it as a choice at all. No one would choose that, it just doesn't make sense. It is a chemical disorder, not a weakness of character, and I can assure you it was certainly not strength of character that got me sober, it was the county judge. Strength of character came long after a few years of continued sobriety, and being a complete wreck. I see myself when I look at them, I doubt that is their dream station in life either. No young person dreams of being a homeless alcoholic or crack addict, so how we view this stiuation as a society has kept us from improving it.

[post=323707]Quoted post[/post]​

You see but Jana, when I meant complex I meant the following.

You didn't pity me (this is just an example) when I was going through depression, self-mutilation, suicide etc, but you take pity on the homeless who are homeless for the very reason on spending money on substance abuse (in most cases, in my experience). Even if they wanted to buy themselves drugs, they should get their own freaking job.

As I see it, panhandlers feed off the compassion of society. People like you Jana - kind-hearted individuals who have had trouble with substance abuse. You didn't get an excuse for your behavior (nor should you have) and neither should the panhandlers.

I find it complex of you, that you don't take pity on those who have troubles such as what I have, but you can spare change for those who are on the street. Despite what I went through, even at 15 I continued to live. Granted, I had a roof put over my head, but I still went to school, did extra-curriculars and helped around the house.

It doesn't make sense that I would CHOOSE to cut or burn myself, but I didn't see much sympathy coming from many people (not you in particular).

And of course, this is just something I see. This is not meant to be accusatory in any way.

 

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by hung_big+Jun 24 2005, 11:53 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hung_big &#064; Jun 24 2005, 11:53 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora@Jun 24 2005, 03:40 AM
Wow, I&#39;ve never considered being homeless a bad habit. If you are referring to drugs, I am certain I am more sympathetic to that than your average bear because of my own experience with alcoholism, I DON&#39;T see it as a choice at all. No one would choose that, it just doesn&#39;t make sense. It is a chemical disorder, not a weakness of character, and I can assure you it was certainly not strength of character that got me sober, it was the county judge. Strength of character came long after a few years of continued sobriety, and being a complete wreck. I see myself when I look at them, I doubt that is their dream station in life either. No young person dreams of being a homeless alcoholic or crack addict, so how we view this stiuation as a society has kept us from improving it.

[post=323707]Quoted post[/post]​

You see but Jana, when I meant complex I meant the following.

You didn&#39;t pity me (this is just an example) when I was going through depression, self-mutilation, suicide etc, but you take pity on the homeless who are homeless for the very reason on spending money on substance abuse (in most cases, in my experience). Even if they wanted to buy themselves drugs, they should get their own freaking job.

As I see it, panhandlers feed off the compassion of society. People like you Jana - kind-hearted individuals who have had trouble with substance abuse. You didn&#39;t get an excuse for your behavior (nor should you have) and neither should the panhandlers.

I find it complex of you, that you don&#39;t take pity on those who have troubles such as what I have, but you can spare change for those who are on the street. Despite what I went through, even at 15 I continued to live. Granted, I had a roof put over my head, but I still went to school, did extra-curriculars and helped around the house.

It doesn&#39;t make sense that I would CHOOSE to cut or burn myself, but I didn&#39;t see much sympathy coming from many people (not you in particular).

And of course, this is just something I see. This is not meant to be accusatory in any way.

[post=323848]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]


OMFG, are you serious?

Okay Chris, since you&#39;re deciding to make this public, I&#39;ll respond. The homeless take the dollar I offer and let me leave, you don&#39;t. You violate every attempt I make to limit our contact. I&#39;ve clearly (clearly as fuck, I might add) outlined under what circumstances I was willing to talk to you, but I am NOT willing to have to draining incessantly every ounce of energy and free time I have. You are not my only friend, but you acted like I owed you non-stop communication. Even after I clearly yelled at you for IMing me twenty times in one day after I had asked you not to, you ignored my anger and just said "Oh so there you are&#33;" It really pissed me off. I told you repeatedly that I did not want to "cyber" with a 15 year old kid, but you continued to try. I told you I did NOT want to talk about suicide, that is the job of a professional, but you continue thinking your problems should be the center of the universe. I can assure you that every single member of this board has problems tantamount to your own right now, you are not special just because you have problems and this is not the suicide hotline. I resent you backing me into the corner and trying to force help from me that I specifically told you I was NOT offering&#33;

I don&#39;t see myself as anyone&#39;s savior, not theirs, not yours. I&#39;m willing to offer a smile, a pat on the back, a dollar, the realisation that struggles are something we all share, but I am NOT willing to throw my time and effort into a bottomless pit just because YOU think I should. I&#39;m NOT willing to make your problems MY problems when they aren&#39;t. I&#39;ve taken you off my IM list and my pm box here as well. It&#39;s NOT my job to fix your problems. The homeless don&#39;t even expect that of me, and you have far more mental capacity than most of them. I wish you well in getting a grip on your life, but not every stranger you meet online will be interested in being your full time unpaid therapist. I&#39;m not.

 

[jonb]

Okay, Chris, I tried the whole SI thing after you posted this, I have this nice cut from my xacto knife just trying to understand why you do it; I still don&#39;t get it. And it&#39;s not so much the cutting as the doing it because a long-distance relationship (a.k.a. a disaster waiting to happen) fell through AND TELLING EVERYONE YOU&#39;RE DOING IT. Honestly I first thought you cut because you have a lot of goth/emo friends who do it too and you wanted to fit in. (Clue: Most cutters wear long sleeves or have psycho kitties.)

 

[steve319]

Originally posted by madame_zora+Jun 24 2005, 03:40 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madame_zora &#064; Jun 24 2005, 03:40 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>If you are referring to drugs, I am certain I am more sympathetic to that than your average bear because of my own experience with alcoholism, I DON&#39;T see it as a choice at all. [/b]

I&#39;ve always felt the same way. So much of our attitudes on these issues are informed by our own personal experiences. I can see so easily how thin the line is between where I stand and where he/she is standing.

It is a chemical disorder, not a weakness of character, and I can assure you it was certainly not strength of character that got me sober, it was the county judge.

And that&#39;s what is so torturous about the whole handout pattern for me. I&#39;m a big believer in consequences and "tough love," but how can we even begin to take on that role by deciding whether or not to give up a buck? Do harm by witholding the money or do harm by giving it? I find myself always thinking that I&#39;m contributing to the potential downfall of another person either way. (Who could offer a drink to an alcoholic and feel good about it later?)

Might have something to do with the fact that I started my out-of-control drinking period before I was legally able to buy alcohol but had buddies who would buy for me (when I couldn&#39;t get it any other way) and carried around some blame for those guys for awhile after I got cleaned up (yeah, I know, don&#39;t lecture me: I do believe the whole adults-making-adult-choices thing).

<!--QuoteBegin-jonb@Jun 25 2005, 06:29 PM
Okay, Chris, I tried the whole SI thing after you posted this, ... I still don&#39;t get it. [/quote]
I have a hard time grasping that phenomenon too, jon. I thought for a long time that I couldn&#39;t see it because of my gender, but I don&#39;t think that&#39;s it, really. The more I&#39;ve read and learned, the more I can....ummm....not "understand," exactly...maybe "restate"?...the thinking behind it, but it the logic and reasoning of it, the connections that are there, still escape me. Maybe I&#39;ve not heard the explanation that will work for me yet.

Anyone out there have a really clear grasp of the cutting thing?

 

[absinthium]

Originally posted by steve319@Jun 26 2005, 12:32 AM
Anyone out there have a really clear grasp of the cutting thing?

[post=324102]Quoted post[/post]​

In my experience, people who cut DESPERATELY want attention. It&#39;s like a lot of bulimics, they do it in the hope of getting caught. I&#39;ve known several who have done it... They all claim to be deeply suicidal, so that you&#39;ll pour your heart and soul out telling them how much you love them and want them to be around. Very few of these people are actually suicidal, they simply respond the the instant gratification of people fawning all over them because they have a "problem".
I find it&#39;s easier and much kinder to tell people when you&#39;re feeling low and want some company rather than going through all the work of manipulating those around you into pitying you, but that&#39;s just me.

Sigh.

That being said, I&#39;m sure there truly are some people out there that feel the best way to relieve their internal pain is to make it external, i.e. a self-inflicted wound that you can watch heal. By and large, however, I don&#39;t think it&#39;s the case with MOST cutters.

 

[dolf250]

I will not give cash to somebody who is simply panhandling. I clearly recall a time when I was asked for cash and refused to give it. The lady got quite verbal and was clearly ticked. As I was getting into my old, decrepit van I watched her walk over to the guy who she was with and got into their almost new Dodge pickup. I just shook my head and laughed. Now, though I am unwilling to give cash, I will, if I have the time, go for a quick slice of pizza or a burger with them. Usually they will ask for cash for food and I will look around to see what the nearest fast food place is.

It is really quite interesting to talk with most of these people (at least if they are sober.) Most have led interesting lives, and most have some sort of a story. I provide a quick meal and yet do not give them cash to buy drugs.

 

[absinthium]

A friend of a friend I knew used to be homeless. He kept McDonald&#39;s applications with him at all times, and would hand them out if he was ever asked for money by anyone on the streets.

Coming from anyone else, I would have seen it as a seriously asshole-ish thing to do, but I honestly believe he was trying in earnest to help them out. It makes me wonder how many of them took it upon themselves to go seek employment.

 

[madame_zora]

I met some somewhat homeless guys this weekend at Comfest, a music festival in Columbus. We had a torrential storm and everyone was huddled under any awning or overhand available. I talked to these guys about their travels, what cities they had been to, my impending move to Florida and just life in general. It was evident that they hadn&#39;t bathed in quite a while and their large backpacks pretty well let me know they were outdoors. I offered a cigarette but they declined (people either love or hate my cloves).
They told me a friend of theirs had a reastaurant and they were helping out behind the scenes until they could get money together for a place. They were very proud of the &#036;7 and hour they were earning&#33; Even though they were sleeping outside, they were trying hard. The one guy had cancer and was unable to get any further treatment because what the government was willing to do for him was used up, so he basically had to just accept dying. It was horrifically sad.

I talk to a lot of homeless people, just a habit. Many are there because of some transitional thing that took them at unawares, they are not all lifelong addicts. If they are, I can see both sides and feel following your own conscience is the way to go. I give them money because I hope the drugs they buy will bring them some small amount of happiness, but if someone else feels that is contributing to their downfall, I can see that side as well. Most of the people I meet do not have the mental capacity to work either because of insanity or drug abuse. No one will want to hire the terribly unclean, and living outside for an extended period of time a person learns a new set of societal rules. These rules are very different from the ones most of us follow. They are survival issues, and most of us do not face these kinds of things in our daily lives so when we come into contact with these people they seem frightening, and they may well be. If I brought them into my home, they might steal from me because their need is so desperate, they might pee in my furniture because their knowledge of what is or is not appropriate may have left them long ago. They may have forgotten how you&#39;re supposed to treat a woman and use force to hurt me, I don&#39;t know. "There will be poor always, pathetically struggling, look at the good things you&#39;ve got." That is a loose paraphrase of Jesus, it haunts me every day. I am there right now, very little separates me from them and I am extremely aware of it.

Those who are not completely insane or drug addicted to the point of very little hope often wish for the opportunity for a job, but after you get turned down so many times and you have so little belief in yourself to begin with, what are you going to do? Well, our survival instinct tells us to feed ourselves by any means necessary, so if they must pander, they do. They have trouble accepting their station in life, so they often invent stories of why they need the money to save their pride, or to make YOU think that they are a worthwhile human being. Kahlil Gibran says in The Prophet in his treatise on giving "Who are you that men should rend their bosom and unveil their pride, that you may see their worth naked and their pride unabashed? See first that you deserve to be a giver and an instrument of giving" and earlier, "Surely he who is worthy to receive his days and nights is worthy of all else from you. And he who has deserved to drink from the cup of life deserves to fill his cup from your little stream".

When I need clarity on why I feel as I do, I go there.

 

[steve319]

The truth which I want you to share with me is not a matter of opinion or belief but of direct experience which knows no contradiction, and which will make you realize that nothing in this world is worth being greedy about, and that there need not be any hatred, jealousy or fear. Then, and only then, will man launch himself upon the safe voyage of unending creativity and unfading happiness which knows no decay or fear; he will have transcended the duality of “I” and “you,” “mine” and “thine.”
--Meher Baba