Do you show affection to other men?

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headbang8: This thought appeared in another thread, but it deserves a life of its own.

Do you show non-sexual affection for other men?   When does it go beyond friendship?  Does a hug or a kiss with a male friend have a different quality from those we give women or (if we're gay) our male lovers?   Indeed, can straight men love other men as deeply as they do the women in their lives?  As a man, do you find showing affection difficult, no matter who's involved?

I'm not sure, but I think these polls don't allow for multiple responses.  Pity---I'm sure there are many who might tick more than one box if they could.

 

[13788]

DizzyGus: [quote author=DeeBlackthorne link=board=relationships;num=1062815559;start=20#33 date=09/21/03 at 16:54:44]Nice post, Dizzy.

I guess the one thing I wondered particularly about your post was how exactly you got so comfortable with showing affection like that? You remind me of a friend from undergraduate school. Complete jock, through and through, and he told me stories about private school. Essentially, and I wouldn't say coerced, but... he learned affection from his teammates. Whether it was grabass or a hug from behind or a playful grasp at the package, his buddies in practice taught him that there's nothing underlying these moments except what you just said: honest feelings. And even then, it was to the extent that they all horsed around with each other, so it made sense to be comfortable since it didn't mean anything...

On a couple of occasions, this friend of mine would drop by in the wee hours of the night because he needed someone to talk to. Granted, I was a little grouchy at the 3 a.m., 4 a.m. wake-up call, but he usually had some tears he needed to let out. He would collapse his frame on my chest or shoulder, or he would lay his head in my lap; I'd rub his back and let him do his thing. It didn't make me uncomfortable; somehow, it was always a pleasant surprise -- as if someone was strange about his affection, unexpected, but it was still okay.

I've had a couple of friends over time who were comfortable with affection, and I suppose I just adapted accordingly. Mom's always insisted upon it and the family's cool, and if any bud just wanted to grapple me into a lock... well... nuzzle nuzzle for them, too.[/quote]

How did I get so comfortable with it? Well its never been something that I was UN-comfortable with.

When I was a kid I wrestled around with my little friends all the time. We had plenty of playful contact but we also hugged each other a bit too.

When I got into middle and high school I really started to grow (in SEVERAL ways :) and I started to be the subject of a LOT of attention. I liked all the physical affection that was being shown to me and I liked to reciprocate it. That meant being affectionate (both in a friendly way and in a sexual way) with girls and also with my guy friends. Grabass had its beginnings way back then as did actually hugging and kissing other boys.

College was just more of the same and so is adulthood. (I sure as hell don't feel like an adult though! ;D) And like I said before it may be because I am a big dude but nobody has ever said anything negative to me about it.

Those people around me just know to expect this kind of stuff from me and they are happy to let me be ME!

Gus 8)

 

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joe22xxx: I wasn't going to share this but I think it helps explain how guys can get used to being close to other guys without fear.
When I was a kid, my older brother & I shared the same bedroom. I used to have nightmares as kids do sometimes when I was around 5 years old. My brother would wake me up & tell me it was just a dream & not to be so freaked. Then he would climb into bed with me & hold me so I wouldn't be afraid & until I got back to sleep. So I got used to the feeling of him being close to me.
Over the years when anything would happen that upset me, he would always climb into bed with me & do the same thing. He was my protector. So I think that's one of the ways that I got used to being physically close to a guy. It was always really nice & I have good feelings about it to this day. He was and is a very supportive person in my life & it started when we were very young.

 

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DizzyGus: Had to dig up this thread because of a recent experience.

About a week or so ago...

Post-game in our locker room (no, this is NOT a porn video set-up! ) and we've just broken a two game losing streak by winning a game 3-2 in overtime. We're all pretty happy as we're showering and changing clothes.

Usual level of grabass going on. There's always MUCH more after a win though! ;D

One of my newer teammates (a very good player btw) comes up to me with a serious face as I am dressing and says "Dude, can I talk to you?" I said OK, and then I'm thinking...Did I miss a pass from him? Did I not pass to him when I should have? Is he mad about me missing a check? Is he pissed at me for something that happened on the ice? Or is it something else?

So I finish dressing and we walk out to the parking lot together and I ask him what's up. He says "I don't really know how to ask you this so I'll just be blunt. Are you sexually attracted to men? Because I was wondering if you were really flirting with me or if you were just playing around."

Sorta caught me off guard so I asked him why he wanted to know.

He said "Because I am kind of attracted to you, man. And you seem comfortable with who you are and what you do around other guys, so I'm curious."

So I had to explain my whole "95% straight" experience to him and he said he understood. I told him that I didn't mean to give the wrong signals out and he said he understood that as well...but he wondered why I was SO AFFECTIONATE with GUYS since I wasn't wanting to nail any of them.

So I explained why I do what I do. You can read all about that in my previous posts in this thread.

And then I asked him what his sexual orientation was and he said that he was bi-sexual but he didn't want anyone to know. He was raised in one of those religious homes that condemn people for everything and if he told anyone in his family they would disown him. As he was saying this I looked in his eyes and I saw fear, which I have never seen from him on the ice.

At this point I knew he was being vulnerable with me like he may never have been in his life before with anyone.

So what did I do? I said "It's allright man. I like you anyway. But you're not getting into my pants without at least taking me out to dinner and a movie."

We laughed for a moment and then I did something that threw him for a loop. I hugged him and held him close to me for a few seconds, and I said "It's really OK, buddy. I like everything I've seen in you so far and I hope to get to know you better."

And then something happened that I didn't expect...

He started to cry. Like SOBBING.

Now get this mental picture:

Me and this guy that I only sort of know as a teammate standing in the rink parking lot after a win, and he's standing there sobbing on my shoulder as I'm holding him.

It was late at night and the parking lot was almost empty, but still I bet it was a strange sight.

So I asked him why he was crying and he said "I never thought anyone would just accept me like that. I always thought these thoughts in my mind made me a SINNER."

And I'm thinking...Poor guy. He must spend a lot of time beating the hell out of himself and trying to deny who and what he is.

So I looked him in the eye and said "Man, its OK. All you have to do is be yourself and I'll like you. And so will a lot of other people. And you might just like yourself too."

He thanked me for my understanding and my affection and he walked to his truck and left.

And this thread about affection immediately came to my mind. So I told myself I'd let you guys know about it when I had time to post it.

This experience just confirms to me what I already knew and what we've said here. A lot of people in this world are just looking for someone who cares just a little bit and for someone to accept them as they are and to show them some love.

And I'm not saying that I am the answer to this guy's problems, but I can't help but think I did some good for him by just letting him know that being himself is OK and then showing him that I meant it by putting my arms around him. And his tears told me all I needed to know about how HE felt.

We've talked a couple of times since then and he can't thank me enough. And the rest of the guys on our team are really starting to warm up to him too, so I think maybe I just gave him the little bit of encouragement he needed.

Anyway...

That's the story. Don't know if it adds anything particularly relevant to this discussion but I just had to share.

Gus 8)

 

[13788]

DizzyGus: I just HAD to respond to this. ;D

I am VERY affectionate with everyone that I call a friend. If I like you, I'm going to be pawing all over you...doesn't matter if you're a boy or a girl. And I am very open to it if you want to hang all over me, too.

My family is sort of affectionate but I am the MOST of all of us. ;D

With girls its usually a big hug and kisses on the cheek and once in a while on the lips. I let hot chicks hang all over me and basically grope me and I love it when a chick rubs my chest or my stomach. :

With guys I really push boundaries. I play a LOT of grabass with my hockey teammates and I do the "hug from behind" thing that makes a lot of guys uncomfortable. Most of my friends are so used to it by now that they just feel me and say "Hey dude, what's up?"

In fact with the guy I would consider my best friend, he and I are affectionate to the point where we hug and then hold each other and he really likes it when I come up behind him and lay both my arms around him. And this guy actually has laid on my bed with me and put his head on my chest and we just kind of fell asleep there. (And he's almost as big as I am! ) It was really cool and we've done it a couple more times since then. Nothing sexual about it...it was just pure honest feelings.

And yes I kiss boys. On the cheek AND on the lips depending on how close I am to the guy. I don't make guys uncomfortable on purpose but I also have the advantage of being a BIG guy so nobody gives me shit about it.

Affection is a great thing. Like others have said here in this thread it's part of what makes us HUMAN!

Gus 8)

 

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Joey_B: DizzyGus, I think you're the best friend I never met. You sound like an ABSOLUTELY phenomenal dude.

Boy do I know what you're talking about. I'm a hugger too; hell, I'll hug almost anybody, male or female. I'm not gay (not that there's anything wrong with that, etc., and I really don't believe there is), but who doesn't want some warmth now and then? As has been said several times, we're humans; we NEED warmth. We kinda needed warmth just to stay alive back in the caveman days and propagate the species.

I'm interested in a couple of other things Gus said, though, mainly revolving around him being a big guy (in the upstairs-body sense is what I was addressing). I think that gets you excused of a LOT, bro! I'm not a vast dude myself, but having worked construction, I know from really, genuinely BIG guys, and, well, they're able to throw their weight around, and I think you're doing this too, at times, but people around you generally know how it's meant.

When I worked construction, I discovered that hugging was actually the NORM. That surprised the hell out of me, because, although I'm a hugger, well, it's such a macho job. But that turned out to be the POINT. Male to male hugging in that context just keeps the day going smoother. And it's such a definitively masculine thing to be doing in the first place, nobody cares or even thinks about it.

My own best male friend (and I'm as close to him as the one Gus describes) was also a construction foreman (although we didn't work together on this), and I asked him if all this promiscuous hugging was actually the rule. He hadn't even thought about it, and he said he figured it probly was.

I think it's got something to do with the extremely physical nature of the work, and the shared effort of it all. In that job I was hugged by total STRANGERS, and I hugged back with gusto. And I further think that Dizzygus's experience has in part to do with the fact that he's an athlete and, well, is just used to it, because athletics breed the same reactions. You use your body all the time, you actually kind of stop thinking about it. What's a hug really mean? Different things to different people, but sometimes it just means "Whoa, you're still there too?"

Anyway, I think men hugging men is a beautiful thing (if none of your dads or brothers had done this, don't you wish they had?), and I always have enjoyed it. Kissing, now, I've always kinda liked the European model where the cheek kiss is a sign of respect, and I'm not horrified by the idea of lip-kissing a man, but I've always thought of that as something one does just with women. (Hey, gimme SOME points for growth, I'm willing to kiss men on the CHEEK at least! Though I haven't gotten to the point of deciding to squeeze them on the butt, but then I haven't met Gus yet. )

 

[D_Martin van Burden]

Where's my fraternity paddle again? I'll show you some rump-lovin'! Ha ha! Seriously, something I was thinking about earlier: Hugs definitely come in all different varieties.

Depending on the relationship between the people giving each other affection, the following indicates different types of embraces:

• The Clapper: An immensely casual hug suitable for most occasions, it's initiated by a handshake or hand grasp. I grip the man's hand and pull him closer to me, and simultaneously, our opposite arms fold across the other's shoulders. A few firm, hard claps on the shoulder finish it off. It's a standard-issue embrace that isn't very affectionate, but is often used best in meeting, and sometimes appropriate for parting ways.
• The Behind-the-Back: I stand 5'10" tall and weigh 150 pounds. The behind-the-back move is best received by someone of equal or larger stature, as it is an embracing move born of protection or comfort to the smaller person. Stepping behind slowly, the giver folds his or her arms over the recipient's body. A firmer bear hug over the chest is playful; wrapping one's arms about the midsection, palms getting rubbing or sliding down one's sides is flirtatious; nestling one's head along the neckline or even kissing beneath or behind the ear is incredibly sensual. The subsequent move greatly depends on the relationship between the two; it's safest to grab or squeeze on the upper torso for acquaintances.
• The Wings: This is an incredibly comfortable hug. Again, a height/size differential is important for the giver, since s/he has to fold his or her arms over the recipient's shoulders. The giver will cross arms vertically over and down the shoulders, so that the palms across toward the upper abs. Palms flat, you can pull the recipient closer to you. It's a unique hug, very fun but still sentimental -- could be done easier if the recipient's propping up against the standing giver.
• The Correspondent Hug: It's the "official name" for any embrace in which arm positions correspond between giver and receiver. For example, if I'm facing Gus and I hug with my right arm across his upper back and my left arm folding under and up his right shoulder, his right arm would fold across me and his left would clasp my back. The pressure in the hug would be firm or swift for friends, lingering and/or slower for closer relationships (friends included).
• The Spider: The partners sit facing each other. The smaller of the two will usually scoot closer while the larger raises his/her knees slightly, creating a small space for the smaller to scoot in. The smaller's legs will wrap about the midsection of the larger person -- a scissors-type move. The smaller can convert the move into something more playful and affectionate by clinging onto the larger; the larger can embrace the smaller and nestle him/her tightly.
• The Vineyard: Best done lying down, it involves turning on one's side to face your partner, then drawing them nearer. One arm usually slides across the back or middle spine; the other coils about the waist, sometimes rubbing the small of the back or sides gently. Palms down, smooth and slow stroking motions. "Vineyard" is a useful symbol because, in embracing each other's, the giver's and recipient's legs tend to coil or nestle up against each other. Gently rubbing up and down each other's legs is soft and sweet; snuggling together and sandwiching each other's legs in between is good for warmth and relaxation, almost inducing a sleep-like posture, especially for those who sleep on their sides.
• Whimsical: This isn't really an embrace, per se, as it is a reaction to one. The last time I got hugged from behind, I slid slightly to the left, curled my arm behind me and about his waist, and dropped him to the floor. We laughed heartily and I gave him a playful hug while he was down, then I helped him up. Moves like this help ease the sentimentality of the prior motion.

Levels of Kisses:

• A peck: Soft, quick kiss planted often upon the cheek and sometimes on the lips in parting.
• An eskimo kiss: Noses rub together. The speed and the softness upon contact determine a friendlier exchange versus a more sensual one.
• A butterfly kiss: Face-to-face with partner, lean in as close as you can so that, when you blink, your eyelashes rub up against your partner's. Alternate blinks or blink as rapidly as you can. Very sweet!
• A full pucker: Best describes a pair of lips making full and strong contact upon a body part. Cheeks are amiable; lips are sincere, sweet, and passionate; kissing any lower, that's your call!
• A sweet pucker: Same as the "Full," but these kisses are usually wetter. When kissing, gently apply pressure toward the middle of your lips (where they meet) and move your tongue toward your bottom teeth; this works up the saliva. For added sensuality, release the kiss but let your lips gently linger on the skin as you pull away slowly.
• Stealing hearts: Also called the "Love Chain," gently flurry a specific body part with quick kisses. For variation, make the first kiss full, then gently lighten up the pressure as you travel up or down the body.
• French kissing: This isn't a stranger to anyone. Just remember: gently brush your lips up against your partner's slowly; work into a rhythm. Listen for breath, for soft and subtle moans. Don't just lunge at them! Instead, gently moisten each other's lips (the tip of the tongue here is hot!) then gently apply pressure to your kisses to get the recipient to open up some. When the lips part, gently brush your tongue along the lip line; or even take a minute to savor your partner's flavor, then move in. A slow, deliberate, and steady tongue always wins. For added pleasure, touch the tip of your tongue to theirs and let them undulate and caress each other freely.

WHEW!

(Ed. note: I have to admit. If you're that buddy buddy with your male friend to plant a French on them, more power to you both! I mean, I've kissed quite a few of my male friends, but drunkenness had plenty to do with the occasion.)

Me: "Are you okay with what happened last night?"

JB (Jock Buddy): "Yeah, I'm totally fine, man. You're a good kisser. I mean... your goatee kinda threw me off, but..."

 

[13788]

Jack_Officer: Gus, great story and thanks for posting it here.

I started giving massages part-time about a year ago and the majority of my business has been men who self-identify as heterosexual. A significant number of them came to me because they were needing affection from another man, and either didn't know how to get it or had no known opportunities to receive it.

I too have had to deal with men who collapsed in tears, sobbing and wailing. The best way to deal with them, I think, is simply to be there for them and offer whatever comfort I can. It might be listening to them talk, or holding them while they confront and release years of pain and fear.

In the most extreme case, I acquiesced to a straight man's request to spent an entire afternoon in my bed, both of us naked, while I held him and let him cry. Eventually he calmed down and simply lay in my arms receiving the masculine affection he desperately wanted for years. Strange but true.

 

[jdoe86]

Kind of a hard question. I will hug a guy, I will have sex with a guy, but I won't kiss a guy--even a peck on the cheek. I just don't. Oh well, right?

 

[13788]

Dantesco: If affection is genuine, why be reluctant to demonstrate it? Sure, I hug and/or kiss men that I feel affection and respect for. And Im straight, just for the record.

 

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Longhornjok: How come there's not a "Yes, it's no big deal" choice? The
"any time anywhere" one has sexual overtones, imho.

 

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headbang8: [quote author=Longhornjok link=board=relationships;num=1062815559;start=0#3 date=09/05/03 at 20:44:53]How come there's not a "Yes, it's no big deal" choice? The
"any time anywhere" one has sexual overtones, imho.[/quote]
Good point, longhornjok. Done.

 

[B_black10inches]

In my family and hood this is not cool. I only hug my friends when we're alone. It puts too much pressure on a brotha in public. It's a matter of respect. I know this doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's a part of my world. Handshakes are easier, and keep both guys on an equal par. I know this is not a liberated point of view, but it's what I'm used to.

I heard some weird story somewhere that the ancient Greeks greeted each other by grabbing each other's nuts. In Harlem, NYC, that could get you dead real quick.

 

[13788]

TragicWhiteKnight: Back to the topic, I've only ever hugged two guys ever and that's because I was never going to see them again (and even then it was the 'distanced, back-pat' style of hug) - for some reason it makes it more special.

It's not to do with sexuality or masculinity at all, really. I can't really imagine ever wanting or needing to hug my friends; we know we like each other, there's no need to confirm it with unnecessary emotionalism. We stick out for each other, defend each other and make plenty of sacrifices but never once has it been necessary to share a man-hug.

Maybe that's just because "I'm British" [to be said in a PG Wodehouse style voice]

 

[13788]

gigantikok: It actually might be because of the British culture, TWK. I have plenty of friends and I've hugged 'em. I hug my girl friends more frequently than my guy friends. Usually the only time I hug guy friends is after I haven't seen them for a long time, or to say farewell because I won't be seeing them for awhile. Never do I just hug a guy friend to greet him on a new day. However, girl friends just give me hugs everyonce in awhile for no particular reason or to greet me on a new day. It's interesting.

No kisses for any friends. I think it's just American culture to only kiss your mom and your lover.

 

[13788]

TragicWhiteKnight: Here's a clip from the 'Making Of..' DVD featurette of my above post.

[shot of me typing]
TWK: Many of you veteran fans may have noticed this message began 'Back to the topic'. That was because this important message accidentally became a deleted scene:

"black10inches, the whole Greek-testicles grabbing thing is of great etymological importance. The Greek tradition of men grabbing each others testicles to confirm an oath is what gave forth to the word 'testimony' (true story)".

Now, back to the real thread.

Girl-friends of mine often hug each other, but less so hug guys. Kisses are definitely out of bounds. I'm pretty sure it's a British guy thing (though my visiting American friend seemed to catch on pretty quick).

 

[Ralexx]

[quote author=Dantesco link=board=relationships;num=1062815559;start=0#2 date=09/05/03 at 20:41:27]If affection is genuine, why be reluctant to demonstrate it? Sure, I hug and/or kiss men that I feel affection and respect for. And Im straight, just for the record.[/quote]

Dantesco's opinion is here mine too... with some nuances... There might be guys that I like in a sexual way too, and thus, I pretty think I do show sexual affection too. When & if the case. Sometimes is does goe beyond friendship, and it may happen that the guy has no idea about my secret pleasures [ , though not so ...] It's the same for women, too.

I what I am concerned, I don't find it at all difficult to show affection... not at all. I like it. It creates a special bond, and makes me feel both freer and more sincere. Just that, if sometimes I'm reluctant (or I became reluctant), is because I know the Other doesn't like it.

Anyway, I live in a country where male to male affection via friendship is perfectly natural and expressed. Ah, Latin countries

 

[Max]

[quote author=TragicWhiteKnight link=board=relationships;num=1062815559;start=0#8 date=09/06/03 at 03:59:08]I'm pretty sure it's a British guy thing [/quote]

Maybe, but this straight middle-aged British guy is an exception ... in fact I notice more and more exceptions. I am a tactile sort of a guy anyway ... and I am far more likely to bearhug a male friend on meeting and on parting than I was 20 years ago. Re kisses ... I have a friend closer than a brother, we have supported each other through good times and bad, and yes on occasion this has seemed perfectly natural.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

I come from a family that is very demonstrative about affection. Hugs and kisses are abundant. If we like the person, we don't feel any reservations about showing it, and don't feel any embarassment at being on the receiving end. The way I see it, it's not a gay or straight thing: it's a human thing.

 

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neworlnssteel: I agree I am straight and have two real close friends where we have exchanged kisses on the cheek before. Most of the time it follows a serious talk or something but any other time we see it as no big deal.