HungJordan: Somehow it just doesn't feel right to kiss a guy even non-sexually and casually. But I am reserved around women too. Guess unless I am gettin nasty I am not the touchy feely type.
da_blissmachine: American culture is so weird
they think they are so open and everyone else is oppressive.... the opposite is true!
they think they are so open and everyone else is oppressive.... the opposite is true!
7x6andchg: Bliss - I'd say we're friendly to stangers...but not open.
Especially not up here in the North Country.
Personally I think everyone could use a little affection. I will go out of my way, and sound the dreaded "mushy" to tell people I really appreciate them.
7x6&C
Especially not up here in the North Country.
Personally I think everyone could use a little affection. I will go out of my way, and sound the dreaded "mushy" to tell people I really appreciate them.
7x6&C
Tender: have to say im with Paul on this one.
its just hard enough to muster the emotional umph to say 'you're a great friend'
its just more of an unspoken thing...
i grew up in a family that was not into physical touching or kissing... hugs ect.
so maybe that is it...
of course when you get to church, all the old ladies are into hugs but i guess i am uncomfortable sometimes.
not that it bothers me at all, more just not sure how to react in a natural way, cause im not used to that.
i think people here are more into a reserved mode. like a 'personal space' thing?
its just hard enough to muster the emotional umph to say 'you're a great friend'
its just more of an unspoken thing...
i grew up in a family that was not into physical touching or kissing... hugs ect.
so maybe that is it...
of course when you get to church, all the old ladies are into hugs but i guess i am uncomfortable sometimes.
not that it bothers me at all, more just not sure how to react in a natural way, cause im not used to that.
i think people here are more into a reserved mode. like a 'personal space' thing?
da_blissmachine: "personal space" doesnt exist in India
although kissing doesnt either........... until 1982 kissing in public was illegal
although kissing doesnt either........... until 1982 kissing in public was illegal
Tender: yeah well i for one have a personal space thing.
India or anywhere lol
i get the creepies when im standing in line a walmart and some gal gets in line behind me and well lets just say i feel cramped. she usually gets the 'back off' look.
now im friendly and all, but i just have a space around me physically, dont like to have others in my face, or touching me....dont like to feel hedged in...
well you know, unless its a sweet thing...
Tender
India or anywhere lol
i get the creepies when im standing in line a walmart and some gal gets in line behind me and well lets just say i feel cramped. she usually gets the 'back off' look.
now im friendly and all, but i just have a space around me physically, dont like to have others in my face, or touching me....dont like to feel hedged in...
well you know, unless its a sweet thing...
Tender
MN8.5x5.5: I've always been one for the showing of affection. I hug my friends, and don't have a problem with it.
One friend just hates being hugged, it's outside his boundary of comfort, but he's the only one who doesn't really seem comfortable with it.
As far as kissing, I can't say I've ever kissed one of my male friends. If I have, it was on the cheek and in a joking kinda way.
My girl friends I kiss on the cheek all the time. Hugs all around.
I just like showing and recieving affection. It really makes you feel like you're cared about.
One friend just hates being hugged, it's outside his boundary of comfort, but he's the only one who doesn't really seem comfortable with it.
As far as kissing, I can't say I've ever kissed one of my male friends. If I have, it was on the cheek and in a joking kinda way.
My girl friends I kiss on the cheek all the time. Hugs all around.
I just like showing and recieving affection. It really makes you feel like you're cared about.
DizzyGus: Had to dig up this thread because of a recent experience.
About a week or so ago...
Post-game in our locker room (no, this is NOT a porn video set-up!) and we've just broken a two game losing streak by winning a game 3-2 in overtime. We're all pretty happy as we're showering and changing clothes.
Usual level of grabass going on. There's always MUCH more after a win though! ;D
One of my newer teammates (a very good player btw) comes up to me with a serious face as I am dressing and says "Dude, can I talk to you?" I said OK, and then I'm thinking...Did I miss a pass from him? Did I not pass to him when I should have? Is he mad about me missing a check? Is he pissed at me for something that happened on the ice? Or is it something else?
So I finish dressing and we walk out to the parking lot together and I ask him what's up. He says "I don't really know how to ask you this so I'll just be blunt. Are you sexually attracted to men? Because I was wondering if you were really flirting with me or if you were just playing around."
Sorta caught me off guard so I asked him why he wanted to know.
He said "Because I am kind of attracted to you, man. And you seem comfortable with who you are and what you do around other guys, so I'm curious."
So I had to explain my whole "95% straight" experience to him and he said he understood. I told him that I didn't mean to give the wrong signals out and he said he understood that as well...but he wondered why I was SO AFFECTIONATE with GUYS since I wasn't wanting to nail any of them.
So I explained why I do what I do. You can read all about that in my previous posts in this thread.
And then I asked him what his sexual orientation was and he said that he was bi-sexual but he didn't want anyone to know. He was raised in one of those religious homes that condemn people for everything and if he told anyone in his family they would disown him. As he was saying this I looked in his eyes and I saw fear, which I have never seen from him on the ice.
At this point I knew he was being vulnerable with me like he may never have been in his life before with anyone.
So what did I do? I said "It's allright man. I like you anyway. But you're not getting into my pants without at least taking me out to dinner and a movie."
We laughed for a moment and then I did something that threw him for a loop. I hugged him and held him close to me for a few seconds, and I said "It's really OK, buddy. I like everything I've seen in you so far and I hope to get to know you better."
And then something happened that I didn't expect...
He started to cry. Like SOBBING.
Now get this mental picture:
Me and this guy that I only sort of know as a teammate standing in the rink parking lot after a win, and he's standing there sobbing on my shoulder as I'm holding him.
It was late at night and the parking lot was almost empty, but still I bet it was a strange sight.
So I asked him why he was crying and he said "I never thought anyone would just accept me like that. I always thought these thoughts in my mind made me a SINNER."
And I'm thinking...Poor guy. He must spend a lot of time beating the hell out of himself and trying to deny who and what he is.
So I looked him in the eye and said "Man, its OK. All you have to do is be yourself and I'll like you. And so will a lot of other people. And you might just like yourself too."
He thanked me for my understanding and my affection and he walked to his truck and left.
And this thread about affection immediately came to my mind. So I told myself I'd let you guys know about it when I had time to post it.
This experience just confirms to me what I already knew and what we've said here. A lot of people in this world are just looking for someone who cares just a little bit and for someone to accept them as they are and to show them some love.
And I'm not saying that I am the answer to this guy's problems, but I can't help but think I did some good for him by just letting him know that being himself is OK and then showing him that I meant it by putting my arms around him. And his tears told me all I needed to know about how HE felt.
We've talked a couple of times since then and he can't thank me enough. And the rest of the guys on our team are really starting to warm up to him too, so I think maybe I just gave him the little bit of encouragement he needed.
Anyway...
That's the story. Don't know if it adds anything particularly relevant to this discussion but I just had to share.
Gus 8)
About a week or so ago...
Post-game in our locker room (no, this is NOT a porn video set-up!
) and we've just broken a two game losing streak by winning a game 3-2 in overtime. We're all pretty happy as we're showering and changing clothes.Usual level of grabass going on. There's always MUCH more after a win though! ;D
One of my newer teammates (a very good player btw) comes up to me with a serious face as I am dressing and says "Dude, can I talk to you?" I said OK, and then I'm thinking...Did I miss a pass from him? Did I not pass to him when I should have? Is he mad about me missing a check? Is he pissed at me for something that happened on the ice? Or is it something else?
So I finish dressing and we walk out to the parking lot together and I ask him what's up. He says "I don't really know how to ask you this so I'll just be blunt. Are you sexually attracted to men? Because I was wondering if you were really flirting with me or if you were just playing around."
Sorta caught me off guard so I asked him why he wanted to know.
He said "Because I am kind of attracted to you, man. And you seem comfortable with who you are and what you do around other guys, so I'm curious."
So I had to explain my whole "95% straight" experience to him and he said he understood. I told him that I didn't mean to give the wrong signals out and he said he understood that as well...but he wondered why I was SO AFFECTIONATE with GUYS since I wasn't wanting to nail any of them.
So I explained why I do what I do. You can read all about that in my previous posts in this thread.
And then I asked him what his sexual orientation was and he said that he was bi-sexual but he didn't want anyone to know. He was raised in one of those religious homes that condemn people for everything and if he told anyone in his family they would disown him. As he was saying this I looked in his eyes and I saw fear, which I have never seen from him on the ice.
At this point I knew he was being vulnerable with me like he may never have been in his life before with anyone.
So what did I do? I said "It's allright man. I like you anyway. But you're not getting into my pants without at least taking me out to dinner and a movie."
We laughed for a moment and then I did something that threw him for a loop. I hugged him and held him close to me for a few seconds, and I said "It's really OK, buddy. I like everything I've seen in you so far and I hope to get to know you better."
And then something happened that I didn't expect...
He started to cry. Like SOBBING.
Now get this mental picture:
Me and this guy that I only sort of know as a teammate standing in the rink parking lot after a win, and he's standing there sobbing on my shoulder as I'm holding him.
It was late at night and the parking lot was almost empty, but still I bet it was a strange sight.
So I asked him why he was crying and he said "I never thought anyone would just accept me like that. I always thought these thoughts in my mind made me a SINNER."
And I'm thinking...Poor guy. He must spend a lot of time beating the hell out of himself and trying to deny who and what he is.
So I looked him in the eye and said "Man, its OK. All you have to do is be yourself and I'll like you. And so will a lot of other people. And you might just like yourself too."
He thanked me for my understanding and my affection and he walked to his truck and left.
And this thread about affection immediately came to my mind. So I told myself I'd let you guys know about it when I had time to post it.
This experience just confirms to me what I already knew and what we've said here. A lot of people in this world are just looking for someone who cares just a little bit and for someone to accept them as they are and to show them some love.
And I'm not saying that I am the answer to this guy's problems, but I can't help but think I did some good for him by just letting him know that being himself is OK and then showing him that I meant it by putting my arms around him. And his tears told me all I needed to know about how HE felt.
We've talked a couple of times since then and he can't thank me enough. And the rest of the guys on our team are really starting to warm up to him too, so I think maybe I just gave him the little bit of encouragement he needed.
Anyway...
That's the story. Don't know if it adds anything particularly relevant to this discussion but I just had to share.
Gus 8)
prepstudinsc: Gus-
That was a really cool story. As one who comes from a very ultra-conservative religious background, I totally understand where your teamate is coming from about how everything is a sin. The friendship and support you showed him will have a lifelong positive impact on him.
There's no reason that two guys can't be close--our society tells us that's it's wrong, but I think humans need the kind of bonding that you two had the other night. I hope you two develop a closer friendship.
That was a really cool story. As one who comes from a very ultra-conservative religious background, I totally understand where your teamate is coming from about how everything is a sin. The friendship and support you showed him will have a lifelong positive impact on him.
There's no reason that two guys can't be close--our society tells us that's it's wrong, but I think humans need the kind of bonding that you two had the other night. I hope you two develop a closer friendship.
Gus,
Having read your story, I just HAD to log-in again and respond! -- (just when I thought I was through for the night!).
I too, was raised in a very strict "religious" background.
But, there's a difference---a BIG difference in "religion" and "faith". Religion too often becomes a series of impossible rules, regulations, shear meaningless RECTORIC! ---It kinda defeats the whole purpose.
On the other hand, "faith" is an expression of one's belief in GOD. And, we're taught everywhere in the bible that God is love, love....L O V E. (get it?)
God loves us and we are to love one another.
Your demonstration of caring, compassion, and understanding are EXACTLY the kind of examples of the kind of love we "Christians" ought to be practicing day- to-day...not the condemning, (DAMNING!), condescending HATRED that keeps coming across in our culture. No wonder there is so much confusion, disgust, and outright rejection of "religion / faith" in today's world. I often get turned off, too, and quite put out with my fellow "Christians" and their behavior. My! I've come a long way. If I'm in error here, then God forgive me. But, I don't think I am. Christ himself loved others and was sensitive to human need---physically, emotionally, and spiritually. HE'S my role model as a Christian, as He should be.
Men need to feel comfortable "showing affection" WITHOUT the fear of any sexual connotation. Men have suffered for years and years without affirmation from one another. And, that's a big reason IMHO why we often seem so messed up in our self esteem and self appraisal in virtually every aspect of our lives---including our relationships with both sexes. What a tragedy. And, you have wisely said (and revealed) that there are many, many men suffering silently. We no doubt have large numbers of them right here in this forum; reading, "lurking", seeking encouragement---so they will feel like they belong and do not stand out alone. Frankly, I suppose I (subconsciously?) go after these men in my comments and replies. I want them to feel better about themselves. It's a need for each and every one of us men-- whatever our age. It's quite universal.
It's not a matter of sexual orientation. It's a matter of responding to how we were made to be by our creator--to be caring, sensitive to others, compassionate to respond to a need for encouragement....all in the name of (that word again) -L O V E.
Gus, you've done just that in the parking lot that night, and I'm proud of you. Given what you described---I would have done the very same thing!
Now. Having said all this, I should add however, that I draw the line when I sense another man "coming on too strongly and pursuing sexual advances which I don't welcome. THAT'S a different story. I think most would agree here. As men, we must appraise the given situation and respond accordingly. This man politely (and most humbly) explored the "possibilities" with you and was not obnoxious in doing so. It took great courage on his part....and yours! to respond the way you did.
You reacted most admirably.
Having read your story, I just HAD to log-in again and respond! -- (just when I thought I was through for the night!).
I too, was raised in a very strict "religious" background.
But, there's a difference---a BIG difference in "religion" and "faith". Religion too often becomes a series of impossible rules, regulations, shear meaningless RECTORIC! ---It kinda defeats the whole purpose.
On the other hand, "faith" is an expression of one's belief in GOD. And, we're taught everywhere in the bible that God is love, love....L O V E. (get it?)
God loves us and we are to love one another.
Your demonstration of caring, compassion, and understanding are EXACTLY the kind of examples of the kind of love we "Christians" ought to be practicing day- to-day...not the condemning, (DAMNING!), condescending HATRED that keeps coming across in our culture. No wonder there is so much confusion, disgust, and outright rejection of "religion / faith" in today's world. I often get turned off, too, and quite put out with my fellow "Christians" and their behavior. My! I've come a long way. If I'm in error here, then God forgive me. But, I don't think I am. Christ himself loved others and was sensitive to human need---physically, emotionally, and spiritually. HE'S my role model as a Christian, as He should be.
Men need to feel comfortable "showing affection" WITHOUT the fear of any sexual connotation. Men have suffered for years and years without affirmation from one another. And, that's a big reason IMHO why we often seem so messed up in our self esteem and self appraisal in virtually every aspect of our lives---including our relationships with both sexes. What a tragedy. And, you have wisely said (and revealed) that there are many, many men suffering silently. We no doubt have large numbers of them right here in this forum; reading, "lurking", seeking encouragement---so they will feel like they belong and do not stand out alone. Frankly, I suppose I (subconsciously?) go after these men in my comments and replies. I want them to feel better about themselves. It's a need for each and every one of us men-- whatever our age. It's quite universal.
It's not a matter of sexual orientation. It's a matter of responding to how we were made to be by our creator--to be caring, sensitive to others, compassionate to respond to a need for encouragement....all in the name of (that word again) -L O V E.
Gus, you've done just that in the parking lot that night, and I'm proud of you. Given what you described---I would have done the very same thing!
Now. Having said all this, I should add however, that I draw the line when I sense another man "coming on too strongly and pursuing sexual advances which I don't welcome. THAT'S a different story. I think most would agree here. As men, we must appraise the given situation and respond accordingly. This man politely (and most humbly) explored the "possibilities" with you and was not obnoxious in doing so. It took great courage on his part....and yours! to respond the way you did.
You reacted most admirably.
throb919: Way to go, Gus! I have to agree with Max: What a huge difference you made in somebody's life--and how lucky he is that you're his teammate. Good man! Benderten is, as always, sensible and sensitive. (I always get something from your posts. Thanks...)
ORCABOMBER: Hey man, almost feel like "tearing-up" myself! ;D I sorta know where he's coming from I feel "restrained" myself at times, it's pretty hard, even though it's all self-induced, maybe not as much as your team mate, hell no, but I feel for him.
Gus, you are definately man of the match.
Gus, you are definately man of the match.
joe22xxx: Very cool story, Gus. Thanx for posting it. I've had a few guy friends I've had similar experiences with. Like I said in another thread, one is gay, but the rest are straight. I just think that guys around my age (22) and even younger, sometimes don't know how to express the love they have for their friends. A lot of times we can't even express it for the girls we love. It's this deep fear of vulnerablity. I think part of it is genetic, but another part is how we're afraid of being hurt by anyone, a woman, another man, anyone. Like I said before, one friend of mine only tells me he loves me when he's drunk, & then he's freaked later about it. He can't even talk about it when he's sober. So lately I've been hugging him, and he's starting to become more relaxed. I can see the change in him.
So Gus, thanx for your openess and kindness. I appreciate it a lot.
So Gus, thanx for your openess and kindness. I appreciate it a lot.
prepstudinsc: I don't know why we as men are taught that it's so wrong to express our emotions, let alone why it's so wrong for us to let another man know that we might actually feel some sort of non-sexual bond to him. One of my best friends and I are both only children. We have both told each other that we are like the brothers that we never had. Only after knowing each other for something like 5 years was I able to even remotely be able to express that to him, and now after knowing him 10 years, whenever we get together to do something and are ready to leave and go home, our parting is always marked by a big hug and we tell each other that we love each other. I know it probably sounds "gay," but I we really do love each other like brothers. We usually end phone calls with a "love ya, dude" too. Men need to be able to express their feelings. It's a part of human emotion, male and female. We were finally told a few years back that it was ok to cry. Now we are told that it's ok to care about our appearances, and that we should go get massages, go get our hair highlighted, get our eye brows waxed, etc. as part of the whole "metrosexual" trend. The sharing the love thing will be coming next. I guess some of us are just ahead of the bandwagon. lol
DizzyGus: Thanks to all of you who responded to my experience.
I was just happy to be there for someone who obviously needed a friend.
And the guy I was talking about (his name is Danny by the way) is making a lot of friends with the boys on our team, so I think he'll be OK in the long run. Most of the guys seem to genuinely like him.
It helps that he's a good player, though! But that's really not what matters. He's a worthwhile human being and you can sense that by just talking to him for a while.
I'll let you all know what develops with him.
Gus 8)
I was just happy to be there for someone who obviously needed a friend.
And the guy I was talking about (his name is Danny by the way) is making a lot of friends with the boys on our team, so I think he'll be OK in the long run. Most of the guys seem to genuinely like him.
It helps that he's a good player, though!
But that's really not what matters. He's a worthwhile human being and you can sense that by just talking to him for a while.I'll let you all know what develops with him.
Gus 8)
Jack_Officer: Gus, great story and thanks for posting it here.
I started giving massages part-time about a year ago and the majority of my business has been men who self-identify as heterosexual. A significant number of them came to me because they were needing affection from another man, and either didn't know how to get it or had no known opportunities to receive it.
I too have had to deal with men who collapsed in tears, sobbing and wailing. The best way to deal with them, I think, is simply to be there for them and offer whatever comfort I can. It might be listening to them talk, or holding them while they confront and release years of pain and fear.
In the most extreme case, I acquiesced to a straight man's request to spent an entire afternoon in my bed, both of us naked, while I held him and let him cry. Eventually he calmed down and simply lay in my arms receiving the masculine affection he desperately wanted for years. Strange but true.
I started giving massages part-time about a year ago and the majority of my business has been men who self-identify as heterosexual. A significant number of them came to me because they were needing affection from another man, and either didn't know how to get it or had no known opportunities to receive it.
I too have had to deal with men who collapsed in tears, sobbing and wailing. The best way to deal with them, I think, is simply to be there for them and offer whatever comfort I can. It might be listening to them talk, or holding them while they confront and release years of pain and fear.
In the most extreme case, I acquiesced to a straight man's request to spent an entire afternoon in my bed, both of us naked, while I held him and let him cry. Eventually he calmed down and simply lay in my arms receiving the masculine affection he desperately wanted for years. Strange but true.
Yeah, I wish I understood the incapability of most men to experience and to accept affection from other men without the sexual connotations, but it still evades me. Chalk it up to Socialization, with a capital "S," that reinforces how men are supposed to be stoic, hardened, independent, and mighty individualists who can take all, conquer all. An implicit assumption says that when we need or crave affection, especially from another men, we're making ourselves vulnerable. Just like "real men don't cry," real men don't need a buddy's shoulder or a hug or all that stuff...
...supposedly.
I'm taking a seminar next month on cultural and ethnic issues and I've done quite a bit of reading already about this same topic. Suffice it to say, I wish I knew a way to get our culture to start thinking broadly on how bad we screw up our sons when we reinforce cultural standards that only hurt them in the long run. Traditionalist Western Christian religion makes such a hoorah about homosexuality. Kids in schools make gay jokes. Jocks have to be meatheads to some degree, at least in their own company. I could go on and on, but look up a sociologist named Kimmel. He's done a ton of work on this stuff.
In any case, I'm just thankful that I learned how it's okay to be affectionate and warm and receptive, and how those qualities have no bearing whatsoever on sexuality. Maybe experiences like Gus's are what spread the learning to others -- getting them to open up and let some emotion out. I know I'm thankful for every friend I've ever had who, regardless of gender, always kept their feelings open and honest with me -- whether we hug, kiss, or whatever. Affection doesn't shake me up. Grab-ass probably wouldn't either.
I read a theorist once who said that making someone uncomfortable was probably the first good step in order to evince change. Sometimes you have to test a boundary, and so long as you're not trying to plunge dick in the ass... well... it's all good, right? Open and honest, talk it out, share.
...supposedly.
I'm taking a seminar next month on cultural and ethnic issues and I've done quite a bit of reading already about this same topic. Suffice it to say, I wish I knew a way to get our culture to start thinking broadly on how bad we screw up our sons when we reinforce cultural standards that only hurt them in the long run. Traditionalist Western Christian religion makes such a hoorah about homosexuality. Kids in schools make gay jokes. Jocks have to be meatheads to some degree, at least in their own company. I could go on and on, but look up a sociologist named Kimmel. He's done a ton of work on this stuff.
In any case, I'm just thankful that I learned how it's okay to be affectionate and warm and receptive, and how those qualities have no bearing whatsoever on sexuality. Maybe experiences like Gus's are what spread the learning to others -- getting them to open up and let some emotion out. I know I'm thankful for every friend I've ever had who, regardless of gender, always kept their feelings open and honest with me -- whether we hug, kiss, or whatever. Affection doesn't shake me up. Grab-ass probably wouldn't either.
I read a theorist once who said that making someone uncomfortable was probably the first good step in order to evince change. Sometimes you have to test a boundary, and so long as you're not trying to plunge dick in the ass... well... it's all good, right? Open and honest, talk it out, share.
robertxxx: oke, I will try to be more friendly to give my support to you people (who have BIG COCKS AND ARE WILLING TO ACCEPT SUPPORT FROM A SMALLER GUY).
Javierdude22: Gus, and Benderten...and all, thanx for those great posts. I can fully relate to your teammate, and its always good to hear another one's story.
I am still finding my way around this web of human to human affection, its quite a journey. It doesnt really have an end I think, its more a process, a process in which we should evolve to be more affectionate, open human beings.
However, like already mentioned above, the context in which we live really determines the path you follow in this. It can be narrow, or less narrow. Especially young people, like Joe mentioned, feel oppressed by popular opinion. More than other 'more matured' people, we still very much care about 'what people think'. On overall I mean. We fear to break the code of conduct between our peers, the code of expectancy of our parents (law school, 2.3 kids, weekly church visits), and the social norm of society.
I personally do not have friends who hug eachother, male friends that is. It just not something we do. But truth be told, this can also depend on the strength of the friendship, which might not have fully developed yet. I do hug and kiss my brother, if the sitaution asked for it, and would do that with friends as well.
Again, thanx for the great posts.
I am still finding my way around this web of human to human affection, its quite a journey. It doesnt really have an end I think, its more a process, a process in which we should evolve to be more affectionate, open human beings.
However, like already mentioned above, the context in which we live really determines the path you follow in this. It can be narrow, or less narrow
. Especially young people, like Joe mentioned, feel oppressed by popular opinion. More than other 'more matured' people, we still very much care about 'what people think'. On overall I mean. We fear to break the code of conduct between our peers, the code of expectancy of our parents (law school, 2.3 kids, weekly church visits), and the social norm of society. I personally do not have friends who hug eachother, male friends that is. It just not something we do. But truth be told, this can also depend on the strength of the friendship, which might not have fully developed yet. I do hug and kiss my brother, if the sitaution asked for it, and would do that with friends as well.
Again, thanx for the great posts.
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