Do You Think A Rift Is Forming Between The Lg & Bttqqiaap Communities?

hunGreek

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Posts
866
Media
14
Likes
5,325
Points
598
Location
Greece
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Serious question here, do you think the traditional pillars of the community, ie gays& lesbians are distancing themselves from the near-daily changes in the "community" with the current 162+ genders, and constant oppression narrative?
I'm sensing that since miltary & wedding rights have been mostly solved and the fact that gays and lesbians are very much represented in TV, it seems to me that "mission accomplished" and most G&L people just want to live a normal life and not want to be grouped with people that consider: masculinity as a toxic trait, or that people that are offended by the He/She pronouns etc.

Do you think i'm completely off the mark and that Gays and Lesbians are excited to start fighting against an new enemy even though most of the time they are not-affected by it?
 
  • Like
Reactions: rayray

herbho

Worshipped Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Posts
2,455
Media
0
Likes
19,936
Points
693
Location
Cleveland (Ohio, United States)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Most definitely there is a rift between the gays, especially the older ones and the SJW movement of pronouns, etc. There are so many more things ( employment and housing protection, adoption ) that still have to be fought over, so the whole " I want to have a genderless society" is getting in the way. The two movements need to be separated. The gays and lesbians have worked too hard to achieve the rights we have, and don't need to be overturned by the focus on what bathroom can be used or , "Is it ' he' or ' they'"? There will be those who disagree with this, but, I'm sure more that will agree.

Why Trans Activists Will Destroy Homosexual Rights
 
  • Like
Reactions: rayray
3

328982

Guest
Serious question here, do you think the traditional pillars of the community, ie gays& lesbians are distancing themselves from the near-daily changes in the "community" with the current 162+ genders, and constant oppression narrative?
I'm sensing that since miltary & wedding rights have been mostly solved and the fact that gays and lesbians are very much represented in TV, it seems to me that "mission accomplished" and most G&L people just want to live a normal life and not want to be grouped with people that consider: masculinity as a toxic trait, or that people that are offended by the He/She pronouns etc.

Do you think i'm completely off the mark and that Gays and Lesbians are excited to start fighting against an new enemy even though most of the time they are not-affected by it?
I think it's a really interesting question. Don't have any answers but it does feel as if they may be pulling in rather different directions and certainly are at different stages. I wouldn’t say “mission accomplished” for gays and lesbians, though.
 

beyondhelpin

Experimental Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2006
Posts
25
Media
0
Likes
18
Points
223
Gender
Male
Serious question here, do you think the traditional pillars of the community, ie gays& lesbians are distancing themselves from the near-daily changes in the "community" with the current 162+ genders, and constant oppression narrative?
I'm sensing that since miltary & wedding rights have been mostly solved and the fact that gays and lesbians are very much represented in TV, it seems to me that "mission accomplished" and most G&L people just want to live a normal life and not want to be grouped with people that consider: masculinity as a toxic trait, or that people that are offended by the He/She pronouns etc.

Do you think i'm completely off the mark and that Gays and Lesbians are excited to start fighting against an new enemy even though most of the time they are not-affected by it?
I do think that much of the impetus behind the whole toxic masculinity, gender neutral movement comes from straight, white, college aged females, who need an identity, so they take up a cause.
View from this straight white guy is it is hard to feel any sympathy for any group that kicks up so much hate when so much progress has been made in a short amount of time. People change but when so many radical ideas (30+ genders that can change on a whim) it can be tough to support. Like I told one friend "For a group that used to just ask for understanding has now turned into the least understanding group out there." Anyone who is in the news for anything good gets a search back 20 years from LGBT to see if they have every said anything that is a slight to gay community. Let the tear down begin.
 

hunGreek

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Posts
866
Media
14
Likes
5,325
Points
598
Location
Greece
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Most definitely there is a rift between the gays, especially the older ones and the SJW movement of pronouns, etc. There are so many more things ( employment and housing protection, adoption ) that still have to be fought over, so the whole " I want to have a genderless society" is getting in the way. The two movements need to be separated. The gays and lesbians have worked too hard to achieve the rights we have, and don't need to be overturned by the focus on what bathroom can be used or , "Is it ' he' or ' they'"? There will be those who disagree with this, but, I'm sure more that will agree.

Why Trans Activists Will Destroy Homosexual Rights

i think youre absoutely right. the gay and lesbian fights had organically grown through decades and efforts, and while there are still achievements to be made. the whole agenda has been taken over by the "genderless SJW" and how fast can a little boy can be dressing in gowns and girl clothes.

great article read by the way. i'm glad i'm not the only one that feels the agenda is now splitting into 2 totally different directions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rayray

hunGreek

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Posts
866
Media
14
Likes
5,325
Points
598
Location
Greece
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
I think it's a really interesting question. Don't have any answers but it does feel as if they may be pulling in rather different directions and certainly are at different stages. I wouldn’t say “mission accomplished” for gays and lesbians, though.

it is completely different directions indeed. in fact, the gay and lesbian cause, if anything was a cause towards emulating the "str8 lifestyle", with G&L wanting do to traditional things like marriage, families, military, appear in tv etc. whereas the new direction seems to be the complete abolition of anything remotely connected to the concept of normality.
 
  • Like
Reactions: rayray

hunGreek

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Posts
866
Media
14
Likes
5,325
Points
598
Location
Greece
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
View from this straight white guy is it is hard to feel any sympathy for any group that kicks up so much hate when so much progress has been made in a short amount of time. People change but when so many radical ideas (30+ genders that can change on a whim) it can be tough to support. Like I told one friend "For a group that used to just ask for understanding has now turned into the least understanding group out there." Anyone who is in the news for anything good gets a search back 20 years from LGBT to see if they have every said anything that is a slight to gay community. Let the tear down begin.

as a str8 person you are so right, hence the worry of all this "new agenda", and non stop hate/oppression narrative is hurting the vast majority of the gays and lesbians that just want to live normal lives.
 
2

2477861

Guest
Partly I see two factors.

First, there's a difference in world view between people in their teens/twenties and older more established people who remember how bad things used to be. The younger people are more open, more entitled and more vocal in their demands.

The second difference is that younger people tend to be more radical in their ideology anyway, no surprise there, but older LGBT people are... not conservative... but focused on career goals, home life, children, and don't have the extra drive or energy to push an agenda, which I think can look to young people as being more conservative.

I live in one of the highest concentration LGBT areas in America. It seems like the people going to my local food co-op are about %50 LGBT and %20 trans. There's a certain amount of intergenerational interaction, to a point, but I personally being older would not usually be comfortable at a community meeting or whatever because I know the younguns don't want to hear about the 'old days' or what their parents' generation thinks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: d1828 and rayray
D

deleted1074483

Guest
thanks for sharing the article, that's a very well argued different world view to that being promulgated in certain circles.

One of the posters above has said this is a young/old issue - I would argue, from my experience of being with and around younger people that this is not the case and that they question it as much as some of us older people.

I have had the privilege of working in hospital environments where we have carried out trans surgery, mainly male to female. 20 years ago, all these people wanted was to be accepted as a female and to in all other respects be treated as a female. We now have 'trans' people celebrating that they are 'trans' and that has become more important than the fact that they are transitioning to a different sex - i'm all for people celebrating their lives, but the transition is to another gender - male or female.

Biologically there are only two genders - this has been agreed by the British Medical Association at their latest conference and to deny this makes providing healthcare to trans people - their underlying biology counts. And the article argues this very strongly.

As someone who has also taught high school, 11-18 year olds, the difference in attitudes, behaviours, thoughts, feelings between a 11 year old person to an 18 year old person is enormous - all of us who came out as gay/lesbian went through a huge process to arrive at knowing who we are. Changing gender, taking a concoction of hormones to change that whilst going through puberty, still trying to work out who we are, is a huge issue and not one that should be walked into blindly. We should support children (if we're still allowed to say that) with their issues for sure.

But the new movements have even blocked stalwart protectors of women - Germaine Greer for example - who has been viligated for saying that a transman's experience and a females experience cannot be compared and that a trans woman is not a 'real woman'. Whilst her language is unfortunate, her point, that a transwoman has not dealt with childbirth, periods, menopause and is unlikely to deal with issues such as osteoporosis does make a difference. It is not rejecting a transwoman, just saying that experiences are different. But she's been shouted down, not allowed to put her very intellectual point of view, stopped from talking at universities etc.

We have Martina Navratilova, sensibly saying that a transwoman has a significant advantage over a natural born woman in athletic endeavours being told that transwomen should be allowed to compete in women's athletics as a women, with the situation that a transwoman with a naturally higher testosterone level being allowed to compete, but a natural born woman with a naturally higher testosterone level being called out as a cheat. Where is the level playing field? Take it one step further and we have a 'man' self defining as a woman competing against women??? How ridiculous would that be?

But this all plays in with what we older people see as a serious deterioration in free speech - if we believe in free speech, we must be open to discussions that we don't like, or that are generally offensive - otherwise its not free speech?

This all came home to me as quite a shock when I joined a local community social group, which is very inclusive - great - but I blundered at the first gathering when I merely said 'hello guys and gals' as I would normally say, and was met with a barrage of looks and comments about my insensitivity. I have just said sorry and that I respect all people as people. The other gay men in the group - because it was 'women' who called me out - just said they'd made the same mistake, and one gay women telling me she loved being called a 'gal' .

I've also discussed with some of these opposing view holders that what they are doing by creating hundreds more 'boxes' 'categories' or whatever you want to call them is separating people not bringing them together. Its also means that vulnerable groups are spending more time arguing amongst themselves than dealing with the real ongoing issues we all face.

For me, I am proudly gay, a male (I hate the term 'cis' why denigrate male/female by having to call ourselves 'cis' ) and I date other men - bi or gay. The guy I last saw (as a fb) was 29 and he laughed at all the talk about being cis or whatever. My new guy is just 23 and finds it all as confusing as me, and classes himself as a 'potentially gay' male.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 622675

DMCD76btm

Admired Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Posts
89
Media
20
Likes
976
Points
368
Age
47
Location
Cleveland (Ohio, United States)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
If there is a rift forming between lgb and T I will not be a part of it. Trans people are my friends, my family, and an historically important part of the liberation and civil rights movements that got us where we are.

They just want to live a normal life too.

I'm eager, happy to fight against a new enemy, even if it doesn't affect me, in the same way I'm eager to fight against any other form of bigotry out there.
 

umdoistressilvaquatro

Legendary Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Posts
1,933
Media
0
Likes
1,562
Points
173
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
View from this straight white guy is it is hard to feel any sympathy for any group that kicks up so much hate when so much progress has been made in a short amount of time. People change but when so many radical ideas (30+ genders that can change on a whim) it can be tough to support. Like I told one friend "For a group that used to just ask for understanding has now turned into the least understanding group out there." Anyone who is in the news for anything good gets a search back 20 years from LGBT to see if they have every said anything that is a slight to gay community. Let the tear down begin.
What period in history are you refering to as the time when LGBT movements only asked for understanding?
 

umdoistressilvaquatro

Legendary Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Posts
1,933
Media
0
Likes
1,562
Points
173
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Most definitely there is a rift between the gays, especially the older ones and the SJW movement of pronouns, etc. There are so many more things ( employment and housing protection, adoption ) that still have to be fought over, so the whole " I want to have a genderless society" is getting in the way. The two movements need to be separated. The gays and lesbians have worked too hard to achieve the rights we have, and don't need to be overturned by the focus on what bathroom can be used or , "Is it ' he' or ' they'"? There will be those who disagree with this, but, I'm sure more that will agree.

Why Trans Activists Will Destroy Homosexual Rights
I think it's way more likely that the fight against trans activists will destroy gay rights. Obvious far-right dog-whistles are being ignored or even promoted because we are preoccupied with a few fringe activists with absurd viewpoints.
 
1

1358326

Guest
Honestly, if you're asking the question if there is a rift forming between the LG and BTQIA+ you just answered the question with a yes. For me there is no way I will ever, ever, abandon my BTQIA+ brothers and sisters. They are, and have always been, an important part of our community and to abandon them now is just a betrayal. So no, for me there is no rift forming.

Us LG can marry because we told the straights we wanted to be just like them and be monogamous and have a family. This is an image that's very recognizable and they we're like: sure us straights love to do this, let the gays and lesbians have it. And we deserve that! But we must also recognize that the fight is not over. What percentage of the gay community likes the idea of a traditional marriage after all? Let's not kid ourselves into thinking we've gained acceptance. It might be enshrined into law but we all know there are other laws discriminating our community.

The fight for LGBTQIA+ rights doesn't stop at LG. You could take a broader approach and see it like this: every individual deserves to live their lives accordingly to who they are. That doesn't even have anything to do with LGBTQIA+ rights. It's a general principal that I think everyone agrees on. So why give up when we want to apply that statement to the BTQIA+ parts of our society? If you are thinking gay rights will be destroyed because of BTQIA+ rights then what rights are you even fighting for? If 1 person in society isn't free, none of us are free. Don't kid yourself and listen to the right wing comments. If it was up to them LG wouldn't have any rights. They're scaring you into thinking they're going to take your rights away if other people get the rights they deserve.
 

englad

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Mar 6, 2007
Posts
2,881
Media
28
Likes
7,904
Points
468
Location
Germany
Verification
View
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
I think the angle you're promoting is stupid and divisive.

For simplicity's sake, I usually just write LGBT or LGBT+, but for me it's a shorthand meant to be inclusive of sexuality and gender identity based minorities.

For a start, I disagree that it's a "job done" on gay rights anyway. Odd to hear that angle from someone whose country had 18 neo-nazis in your parliament last year. There's a significant backlash against gay rights in certain sections of Europe as well, especially in the east, Poland, Hungary and Russia. Then you look at a global level and the picture shows you how much further we have to go, grey being no civil rights but not illegal, only navy blue is marriage (I also couldn't help noticing your country doesn't have equal marriage yet either):

upload_2019-10-29_7-14-59.png




In certain parts of Africa, you still have American evangelical christians trying to export the culture war that they've lost at home. There's also still work to do in many of the countries that have equal marriage. Brazil has an extremely homophobic president. Plenty of gay Americans for example might get married on Sunday and fired for their sexuality on Monday. The UK government has a disgracefully high proportion of LGBT refugees who are denied asylum and deported back to countries where they'll face persecution. All across the west, LGBs are still facing higher rates of homelessness, depression, suicide and bullying. So I completely disagree with your premise that gay rights are "mostly done".

As for throwing trans people under the bus, certainly not. I'd never do that. Apart from just accepting them as human beings and being willing to protect someone who's vulnerable. I recognise that a hell of a lot of transphobic tropes are virtually identical to old homophobic tropes:

Trans people are recruiting the young - umm where have we heard that before?
Trans panic defence - does this remind you of anything?
Trans people are perverts and predators - Does this remind you of anything?



Masculinity is not a fixed concept, it's one that evolves with culture, and I don't think anyone views masculinity as a whole as toxic. And ffs, "they" used in a singular sense dates back to Chaucer, stop acting like it's just been brought up. "And whoso fyndeth hym out of swich blame, They wol come up".
 

umdoistressilvaquatro

Legendary Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Posts
1,933
Media
0
Likes
1,562
Points
173
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Trans people are recruiting the young - umm where have we heard that before?
Trans panic defence - does this remind you of anything?
Trans people are perverts and predators - Does this remind you of anything?
They are grooming people into going back to be anti-gay
 
  • Like
Reactions: DMCD76btm