Does anyone actually still believe in God?

[GottaBigOne]

Dorset, thank you for replying. If i seemed offensive to you, that was not my point, I think maybe you misunderstood my intentions.
First: I do realize that what I watched was a childrens cartoon. That is why I mentioned it. I was not attempting to imply that if there is a god, this is an accurate description of it. I was merely illustrating how sometimes wrong and fucked up Christian mythology can be. especially since they inculcate this shit into Kids' heads.
Second: Lucifer. I was not making a judgement on Lucifer based on anything but his refusal to blindly obey God. The program I watched did not go into all the details about him, only about his rebellion in heaven. I admire his rebellion because it seemed to me he was standing up for what is objectively good while god was being a dickhead tyrant. If lucifer believes that momentary self pleasure is worth the torture of others than I would hyave to disagree on that one. ( I can't believe I'm referring to this shit as if it were real&#33 But seeing how god has lost all credibility with me, it stands to reason that he may be lying about lucifer's morality only to further his own agenda, a smear campaign against lucifer in order to draw his followersw away, you know there aint real good PR in Hell.
"You base this comment on a cartoon fairytale you saw on TV - This is the creation of the mind of a person not God" -Dorset-
And the bible isnm't the creation of the mind of some person? Or was that divinely inspired? HEy wasn't this "fairytale" taken out of the Bible????

"Eternal life is a gift not something that is yours for him to take away. Maybe that's just a technicality but it does give him more of a right to choose who gets it" -Dorset-
It would be God prerogitive whether or not he bestows gifts to his creations or not whatever his reasons. But the reasons he chooses reveals his benevolence or malevolence. Giving a gift to evil as reward for their evil reveals the gift givers evil.

"Love is too complex to assume we know which way it was meant to be applied" -Dorset-
So when god uses the word love, it means something totally different than the way we mean it. Does it mean simply to obey?? Why doesn't god make himself clear? If we totally rape a word of its meaning when it comes to god then it becomes unintelligable to even speak about god, because we have destroyed our onl;y way of accurate communication of ideas. Might as well say "Grout god with all your dig"

" You say having an opinion doesn't make it worthy of your respect? With all due respect, who gives a shit? Who are you anyway? You've just spouted a load if ill informed BS based on a few cartoons you've seen on TV. To further that point, who has ever said that it is their business to mind your business? The Bible says the complete opposite of that and backs your viewpoint completely. Maybe if you'd taken time to learn about the thing you're slating then you would have known this" -Dorset-
This was Madam's point exactly, she has said time and time again that she has no problem with certain aspects of religion, just how religion has been used by people who she feels don't understand it. You were mixing us up. I am the one who feels that they actually do understand it, and that christianity is all about imposing your will on others. I have the verses to back it up, they are there, I just lack the patience to look them up for you.

" It doesn't matter, there's every chance that Hitler is in heaven. Entrance into heaven doesn't have a great deal to do with how you've lived your life. It's more to do with your reaction to it. If Hitler realised what a bastard he was before he died and regreted his actions then he could be there right now" -Dorset-
What kind of moral being is a god who does not punish the evil and reward the good? Having the same fate for the evil as for the good only does service for the evil. The evil is the only thing that benefits from this system. the good is the only thing that suffers.

"That's a fault of man using religion as a tool - not a fault of religion" -dorset-
The point was about the origin of religion, not the use of it.

"Absolutely spot on. I can't imagine an omnipotent being having insecurities." -dorset-
Then why create anything at all? A perfect being living in solitude would not need to create anything outside itself in order to fulfill any desires. and then what does this mean???: "I am a jealous God, thou shalt not have any other gods before me." Doesn't jealousy stem from insecurity???????

 

[prepstudinsc]

I'm a believer and I'm proud of the fact that I have a strong faith. There are things about religion that can not be answered and that is faith. There are also times in which we are called to use our brains to think. The parody of Chrisitanity that exists in the USA now is a far cry from what it was in the time shortly after Jesus' death and resurrection.

There are also some facets of the faith that we are not to understand because we are human and just simply can not understand them. The idea that we do still believe them, however, is "faith."

Like Pecker, I don't use my faith to judge others, that is left to only one--God. All I can do is live my life according to the example that Jesus set out--loving others, caring about people, in hopes that my actions will match the words I speak. I so have a personal relationship with Jesus (being "born again") which in my tradition is necessary for salvation.

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

My word!

I didn't realise we had so many intellegent people in the world!

Befrore I go on, I'm not denying God, just questioning his existance. Ok, maybe I am!

If God is eternal and he created the earth, the universe and everything, what was he doing for the other half of eternity before creation started.

And surely if God created Lucifer, he created evil? Therefore, is God evil?

 

[Dorset]

One more response needed I think,
thanks for your reply btw, it was a more intelligent critisism of Christianity than I'm used to on here and you seemed to make much more of an effort than most to be understanding and accepting of my alternative view point
(makes a change to 'all christians are deluded brainwashed idiots&#39

So cheers :happy:

Lucifer. I was not making a judgement on Lucifer based on anything but his refusal to blindly obey God. The program I watched did not go into all the details about him, only about his rebellion in heaven. I admire his rebellion because it seemed to me he was standing up for what is objectively good while god was being a dickhead tyrant.
But seeing how god has lost all credibility with me, it stands to reason that he may be lying about lucifer's morality only to further his own agenda, a smear campaign against lucifer in order to draw his followersw away, you know there aint real good PR in Hell.

I have to correct this point - God made everyone with free thought so they could chose if they wanted to follow him. If he didn't like Lucifers attidude that much he could have forcably changed it. Lucifer chose hell.
Lucifer went against God which God was upset about but didn't 'punish' him, all he did was stop Lucifer from representing him anymore which has to be fair. In the same way that he doesn't 'punish' none believers but simply doesn't reward them either - A big difference

HEy wasn't this "fairytale" taken out of the Bible????
No it wasn't is the simple answer - no part of the Bible deals with Gods relationship with Lucifer in that depth - all of these stories are 'spin offs' created by various religious groups to portray what they believe is a good Christian attitude


I am the one who feels that they actually do understand it, and that christianity is all about imposing your will on others. I have the verses to back it up, they are there, I just lack the patience to look them up for you.

The obvious example is when Jesus said 'those without sin cast the first stone' he was defending sinners by saying that there are no perfect people in the world and logically that means no one is capable of judging others. Jesus also never pushed his belief onto others, he would invite people to hear him talk, if they came then great if they didn't he let them go about their lives free from hastle

What kind of moral being is a god who does not punish the evil and reward the good? Having the same fate for the evil as for the good only does service for the evil. The evil is the only thing that benefits from this system. the good is the only thing that suffers.

God isn't a 'moral being' he is creator of all things and he is also forgiving of all sins commited on earth. In effect it's just like saying that you time on earth is a journey and at the end of the journey if you are in the right location you enter heaven

"I am a jealous God, thou shalt not have any other gods before me." Doesn't jealousy stem from insecurity???????

WTF? God has at no point said "I am a Jealous God" where the hell did you get that from?

If you want to look it up it's the 1st commandment (Exodus 20:1-3)

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[madame_zora]

Dorset, I was nervous as soon as I saw that you were referring to GBO and I in the same response, we have different views.

I, for one, never saw a cartoon and was irritated that you attributed that to me. Why should I have to spend time correcting your mistakes because you are too lazy to separate my words from someone else's? Any time I get into these arguments, I have to first untangle the misconceptions of the poor reader who didn't get the point, and here I am again. While I won't casitgate your intelligence, I will ask you in earnest not to make me accountable for someone else's experiences and thoughts, okay?

As for my challenge to find out where your religion came from, here is an excerpt:

"The effect of its origins as selected parts of whole bodies of scripture, written by at least a hundred and fifty different people in dozens of different places at different times, many centuries apart, and for different reasons, colors what its authors wrote. Yet that simple fact is widely ignored, both by people who naively follow what they read in it as the inerrant word of God, and by more liberal scholastic theologians, who seek to understand its historical context as well as a body of doctrinal scripture, which they often blindly follow, even though they know full well its messy origins."

For the whole article, check here: http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm

If you survive that read and are still curious, google it yourself.

In truth, what has been lumped into "Christianity" by the New Testament is an attempt to unify an weakening Judaic culture that was already splintering into study of the qaballah, paganistic ritualisms that abounded even within church services (some of these things are addressed directly in the Bible, where certain groups like to apply their admonishments more liberally. In some places where there are calls against prostitution and homosexuality, it is in reference to DURING or as a part of church services and worship&#33 To ignore this is to lack understanding of what is meant by these passages. To ignore the time span and manner in which the inclusions into the Bible were written and chosen is to willfully ascribe oneself to a system of belief that is wholly manufactured. Why then would I give that a nod of realism?

Sure, you can say you don't care about my personal opinion, and I can accept that. Now try to ignore the idea that everything many Chrisitans believe is based on willful ignorance. Oh yeah, heads up- it will be easier just to call me a bitch and still do no further reading because the outcome might be unsettling.

At this point I am unclear if you are actually challenging my views or ones you gathered by mixing mine with GBO's, or neither. I'll await your response.

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by HappyHammer1977+Oct 21 2005, 12:16 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HappyHammer1977 &#064; Oct 21 2005, 12:16 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>If God is eternal and he created the earth, the universe and everything, what was he doing for the other half of eternity before creation started.

[post=353846]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b]

Please, please, please tell me that&#39;s a joke

<!--QuoteBegin-HappyHammer1977@Oct 21 2005, 12:16 PM
And surely if God created Lucifer, he created evil? Therefore, is God evil?

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[/quote]
Good question - God made all things so yes he made it but God himself is not evil because he chooses not to use it. God is the ultimate believer in freedom of speech as he created it. But of course he could use evil if he wanted just like Lucifer could be good if he wanted

After all, evil defines good and Lucifer defines God (and vice versa)
For the scientists out there it&#39;s the same priniciple as &#39;every action has an equal and opposite reaction&#39;

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

No, I wasn&#39;t joking. What WAS God doing before he created everything?

And more importantly - Who created God?

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Oct 21 2005, 12:34 PM
I, for one, never saw a cartoon and was irritated that you attributed that to me. Why should I have to spend time correcting your mistakes because you are too lazy to separate my words from someone else&#39;s? Any time I get into these arguments, I have to first untangle the misconceptions of the poor reader who didn&#39;t get the point, and here I am again. While I won&#39;t casitgate your intelligence, I will ask you in earnest not to make me accountable for someone else&#39;s experiences and thoughts, okay?

[post=353853]Quoted post[/post]​

Please re-read my thread - I did not attribute that to you, I didn&#39;t attribut it to anyone, I was answering responses to 2 people which I also wrote at the very start of my post

So, as for the &#39;lazy and poor reader&#39; please check my post again and then maybe an apology?

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by madame_zora+Oct 21 2005, 12:34 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madame_zora &#064; Oct 21 2005, 12:34 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Sure, you can say you don&#39;t care about my personal opinion, and I can accept that.

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I wouldn&#39;t say that as I value all thought out opinions and your opinion is a very knowledgable and valuable one. I will read the post you&#39;ve sent me, probably at lunch.

<!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora@Oct 21 2005, 12:34 PM
Oh yeah, heads up- it will be easier just to call me a bitch and still do no further reading because the outcome might be unsettling.

[post=353853]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]
Why are you always so offensive? Why do you assume that I&#39;m that kind of person? Have you ever considered going to an anger management class? You have valid points but often there value is lost by insulting people so much

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Originally posted by Dorset+Oct 21 2005, 01:49 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dorset &#064; Oct 21 2005, 01:49 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by madame_zora@Oct 21 2005, 12:34 PM
Sure, you can say you don&#39;t care about my personal opinion, and I can accept that. 

[post=353853]Quoted post[/post]​

I wouldn&#39;t say that as I value all thought out opinions and your opinion is a very knowledgable and valuable one. I will read the post you&#39;ve sent me, probably at lunch.

<!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora@Oct 21 2005, 12:34 PM
Oh yeah, heads up- it will be easier just to call me a bitch and still do no further reading because the outcome might be unsettling.

[post=353853]Quoted post[/post]​

Why are you always so offensive? Why do you assume that I&#39;m that kind of person? Have you ever considered going to an anger management class? You have valid points but often there value is lost by insulting people so much

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Now now everybody&#33; Calm down&#33; ...and breath...&#33;

 

[Dorset]

Lol, I am calm, and as I said MZ&#39;s post is a very good one, there are flaws with the Christian faith and it&#39;s origins. It&#39;s just that I have seen or know about most of them and have found that I can seperate what I think to be true and the bad bits that have attached themselves to christianity for so many years. MZ can&#39;t and I respect that

My only gripe is the personal nature of her attacking reply, it&#39;s unsavory and unnecessary

 

[Pecker]

Whoopsie&#33;

Some of you guys have forgotten that Gotta paraphrased a "fairy tale," not scripture. To assign a personality to God based on this children&#39;s story, written by a man or a woman to entertain them, is mistaken.

Lucifer didn&#39;t disagree directly with Michael, but with Jehovah (Jesus). The argument wasn&#39;t over who was most powerful per se but whose plan for the salvation of Man on Earth was the better one: Jesus favored giving Man free choice, which would necessitate also sending a Savior (which he volunteered to be) so that those who made the wrong choices could repent and return to God after a judgement; Lucifer, however, felt that the plan was doomed to failure because of Man&#39;s weakness and proposed that he be allowed to rule over the Earth so that he could compel Man to obey his (Lucifer&#39;s) laws and guarantee that not one soul be lost. About 1/3 of Heaven agreed with Lucifer.

When God chose Jehovah&#39;s plan of free will and salvation for Man, Lucifer (by now pumped up with his own importance and a desire to rule not only over Earth but Heaven, too) declared war. He and all those who fought against God could have been destroyed but they were instead expelled from Heaven.

That story has not yet ended, so to tell the whole thing here would take days and days and I&#39;m already tired of typing.

My attempt to correct the errors of the TV fairy tale is still a paraphrasing of scripture so to get the details you&#39;ll have to look it up if you care to.

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

...and so God would rather see his creation in hell than to help him with his errors?

 

[DC_DEEP]

Originally posted by HappyHammer1977@Oct 21 2005, 08:50 AM
Now now everybody&#33; Calm down&#33; ...and breath...&#33;

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I agree&#33; Reminds me of the admonishment "You swallow a camel and choke on a gnat." Well, if you can swallow a camel, don&#39;t offer me a blowjob... Just kidding.

Dorset, your post was a little unclear, it DID appear that you took Madame to task over the cartoon. I&#39;m guessing the quote tags are giving you fits (as they do me at times.) You just have to be very thorough and make sure that you have an opening tag and closing tag around a particular quote. The buttons put the tags in strange places, I have started just putting them in manually to save time and sanity.

I don&#39;t have a copy of the New Revised Standard handy, just a King James Version, but indeed the very first five words of the Ten Commandments is "I am a jealous God." I&#39;m not a scholar in Aramaic, have never seen the original text, so I&#39;m not sure of the translation.

Let&#39;s all stay on topic, if possible, and be sure to be critical of the post, not the person posting.

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Oct 21 2005, 01:22 PM
Dorset, your post was a little unclear, it DID appear that you took Madame to task over the cartoon.

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If that was the impression that was given that I am very sorry, it was always my intention to answer each topic without attributing it to anyone

I promise to clearly label who I&#39;m quoting at all times in future :dunce:

 

[DC_DEEP]

Originally posted by Pecker@Oct 21 2005, 09:06 AM
Lucifer didn&#39;t disagree directly with Michael, but with Jehovah (Jesus). 

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??? I was under the impression that Jehovah (Yahweh) was the name for God (but only written without vowels, and never ever pronounced)

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

But what right has anyone got to re-write the Bible? Translate, sure, but not presume they have a better version.

 

[madame_zora]

Well, you wonder why I&#39;m "full of venom" when you misquote me, then add insult to injury by denying it. Here:

Me:
Further, hatred of our brothers is wrong, judgement based on superficiality is wrong, minding other people&#39;s business is wrong, and anyone arguing for their right to mind MY business is stupid and foolhardy. I won&#39;t give any credibility to a non-credible viewpoint, or I&#39;d be as batshit insane as they are. Not my problem. Having an opinion doesn&#39;t make one worthy of respect&#33;


You:
You say having an opinion doesn&#39;t make it worthy of your respect? With all due respect, who gives a shit? Who are you anyway? You&#39;ve just spouted a load if ill informed BS based on a few cartoons you&#39;ve seen on TV. To further that point, who has ever said that it is their business to mind your business? The Bible says the complete opposite of that and backs your viewpoint completely. Maybe if you&#39;d taken time to learn about the thing you&#39;re slating then you would have known this



Okay, well it seems you aren&#39;t very nice to ME unless you consider your misguided reference to a "few cartoons" to be invisible, along with your "who gives a shit" directed to me. I respond in like kind and if you don&#39;t like it, fuck off. My "ill-informed bs" was my opinion about hatred and judgement being wrong. Accusing me of not knowing the Bible and slanting it&#39;s words have no basis in reality.

To anyone else that wants to say "calm down and be nice", fuck off too.

If I wasn&#39;t being called to the carpet to defend things I never said based on sources I never cited I might feel differently, but as it is, I tire of explaining why I was misread and misquoted so I get pissy.

As for your last point, I understand the Bible as well as can be expected for one who has spent over ten years studying it from the perspective of being a true believer and almost four more from the perspective of not knowing the actual truth. Prior to that I spent time studying several other religions and philosophies, though none so intently. I can honestly say I neither accept nor reject the Bible as truth, as I have tried to state so often. I believe there are elements of truth contained therein, but because of the nature of how many authors it has and over the span of how many years it was written and collected, it is lunacy to say that it must either be wholly rejected or accepted. One can accept parts of a colletion of stories without accepting every sentence as being Verifyable Truth. That is MY stance as reported by ME. I don&#39;t like other people telling me what I believe, I&#39;m the only person qualified to determine that.

Okay, now to answer who said it was their business to mind MY business? This is the argument I have with the neocon movement. If they were actually following the majority of the teachings of the Bible, they would practice attraction to the faith (like Jesus) rather than legislation (like the Pharisees). This, I feel, is at the root of the problem. When someone honestly doesn&#39;t know why someone else who is not of their exact same view would be offended at the notion of having laws passed to impose one view over another, when it is clearly not in keeping with the dictates of the constitution for the government to be involved at all, that indicates a level of lunacy I won&#39;t subscribe to. I am not saying this is YOUR position, I was asking if it is.

An argument I&#39;ve had with Christian supporters of the neocon movement have been in the past, "If I win, we both get to worship, or not, as we choose. If YOU win, I lose my rights and your rights increase. Can you now see why I&#39;d be angrier than you?"
Now, I have no idea where you stand on the government&#39;s involvement in religion, but it is something that is going on flagrantly so it is impossible for me (at this time) to address the tenets of Chrisitanity without acknowledging how it is being misused on a grand scale at the present time.

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Just an aside here -

Watching the local news ere where I live, it was repoted that a small chuch was planning to have a 3G mast installed into the spire. As you may well expect, many of the parishoners were "up in arms" over this. Not because of desecrating a holy church. Not because of "potential health hazards". But because the company proposing to erect the mast is owned by a multi-national arms dealer&#33; Er, whoops&#33; Church of England declined to comment&#33;

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Oct 21 2005, 01:40 PM
Well, you wonder why I&#39;m "full of venom" when you misquote me, then add insult to injury by denying it. Here:

[post=353881]Quoted post[/post]​

This is my post, I&#39;ve copied and pasted it to make it easy for you, you&#39;ll notice that your name is at no point mentioned
I have already appologised if there was any mis-understanding

I know I&#39;m quoting 2 seperate people below but there are a few points I can hopefully help with. There were big knowledge gaps in some of your posts

The basic message though is that your welcome to your views but you have no right to patronise or riddicule Christians just because you think they&#39;re wrong - a boundary that was crossed a few times here


QUOTE(,Oct 21 2005, 08:17 AM)
First: How insecure is God that he needs to ask his creations if they love him or not, also making a choice between loving Him and loving themselves. WHy can&#39;t they love both? Why does loving God mean that you have to totally negate yourself?

You base this comment on a cartoon fairytale you saw on TV - This is the creation of the mind of a person not God- it is a very simplistic way of getting a general concept over to children. A lot of Christian TV broadcasts are put out there by fairly untrustworthy sources who have a large financial interest in it so make them more interesting at the expense of accuracy to the source material[/COLOR]
You are a curse on this site with your disgusting attitude to others, UKMale was right in his post and in naming you as a reason that people leave here.

You are an angry, volatile and insulting black mark on our forums because of your inability to deal with issues in an adult manner