Does anyone actually still believe in God?

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by Dorset+Oct 21 2005, 09:09 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dorset &#064; Oct 21 2005, 09:09 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>I know I&#39;m quoting 2 seperate people below but there are a few points I can hopefully help with. There were big knowledge gaps in some of your posts

The basic message though is that your welcome to your views but you have no right to patronise or riddicule Christians just because you think they&#39;re wrong - a boundary that was crossed a few times here

<!--QuoteBegin-,Oct 21 2005, 08:17 AM
First: How insecure is God that he needs to ask his creations if they love him or not, also making a choice between loving Him and loving themselves. WHy can&#39;t they love both? Why does loving God mean that you have to totally negate yourself? [/color]

You base this comment on a cartoon fairytale you saw on TV - This is the creation of the mind of a person not God- it is a very simplistic way of getting a general concept over to children. A lot of Christian TV broadcasts are put out there by fairly untrustworthy sources who have a large financial interest in it so make them more interesting at the expense of accuracy to the source material

What kind of weak diety would want nodding heads? Everyone knows you can&#39;t force love or alleigance. Threaten someone with the withdrawal of a priveledge like eternal life and they&#39;ll likely agree to almost anything.


Eternal life is a gift not something that is yours for him to take away. Maybe that&#39;s just a technicality but it does give him more of a right to choose who gets it


Third: Is Love something that can be chosen? If one does not love god for any reason, is there really a choice to be made, and if it isnt a choice, is it punishable? It seems that god created the angels so that they could inflate his ego and nothing more, that kind of diety gets no respect from me<span style='color:gray'>.</span>

I agree that this is a grey matter as many churches seem to bring up the idea that you love God above all others. The problem with the word is it has so many levels that it can be applied to. It might just be best to apply the one that seems right to you (if you believe). For example you have a mothers love, true love, brotherly love and &#39;I love those shoes&#39;. Love is too complex to assume we know which way it was meant to be applied

Fourth: I admire Lucifer much more than Michael. Lucifer has values, he realizes that simply being the creator does not automatically give God the right to being loved.

You both seem to think this but maybe you don&#39;t fully know what Lucifer stands for, the paragraph below suggests that you don&#39;t admire Lucifer as Lucifer believes that a small amount of pleasure for yourself is worth unlimited pain and agony for others. If you think this then fair enough but don&#39;t say that you believe in fairness to all and then say you admire Lucifer

Further, hatred of our brothers is wrong, judgement based on superficiality is wrong, minding other people&#39;s business is wrong, and anyone arguing for their right to mind MY business is stupid and foolhardy. I won&#39;t give any credibility to a non-credible viewpoint, or I&#39;d be as batshit insane as they are. Not my problem. Having an opinion doesn&#39;t make one worthy of respect&#33;

You say having an opinion doesn&#39;t make it worthy of your respect? With all due respect, who gives a shit? Who are you anyway? You&#39;ve just spouted a load if ill informed BS based on a few cartoons you&#39;ve seen on TV. To further that point, who has ever said that it is their business to mind your business? The Bible says the complete opposite of that and backs your viewpoint completely. Maybe if you&#39;d taken time to learn about the thing you&#39;re slating then you would have known this

In my opinion, all religion and spirituality stems from man&#39;s uneasiness with not understanding the world, his own existence, and the complex nature of the universe.

Fair enough if that&#39;s your view, I&#39;m perfectly at ease with life, death and the world though regardless of my religion

Yes, we have a winner&#33; The more one researches what was going on in the world during the time when their own religion was in it&#39;s "formative years", the more one must accept this undeniable truth.

Undeniable? That&#39;s a strong word considering haw many people disagree with you. We aren&#39;t all nutters you know&#33; p.s. it might help to quote your source here as I doubt many people are familiar to what you&#39;re refering to

who wants to believe that when they die, they will be no more? Who wants to believe that in the end, Hitler and Mother Teresa enjoy the same fate? IS that fair?

It doesn&#39;t matter, there&#39;s every chance that Hitler is in heaven. Entrance into heaven doesn&#39;t have a great deal to do with how you&#39;ve lived your life. It&#39;s more to do with your reaction to it. If Hitler realised what a bastard he was before he died and regreted his actions then he could be there right now
(God is all knowing so you can&#39;t just fake it)

How frequently throughout history has religion been brought out to "end all debate" about what is and is not real?

That&#39;s a fault of man using religion as a tool - not a fault of religion

God either is or is not. If God IS, then he IS God, which would indicate to me that He is not riddled with insecurities and can handle my questions. If He is not, then my questions are not trivial.

Absolutely spot on. I can&#39;t imagine an omnipotent being having insecurities.

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Okay, now read the bold type. These are YOUR words replying directly to MINE. You are either stupid or a liar, which is it? God, three fucking tries just to even get to a place where you&#39;ll read what I wrote. I give up on you, and this retarded conversation.

 

[Dorset]

Yep, thought so, all it says is &#39;I&#39;m quoting two seperate people&#39;

It doesn&#39;t say which comment is yours and which isn&#39;t so to say that I have attributed a comment to you is foolish

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Oct 21 2005, 02:14 PM
I give up on you, and this retarded conversation.

[post=353884]Quoted post[/post]​

I wish you would - take you nasty foul mouth someplace else

Oh shit look, I just quoted you&#33; - the way to tell is that it says your name next to the word quote&#33;&#33;&#33;
Now you know how to tell you hopefully won&#39;t make the same mistake again

 

[madame_zora]

Dorset, you are clearly obsessed with just winning an argument when clearly you were wrong. I can&#39;t concern myself with that any further, as I have tried to explain in answering your PMs.

The sad thing is, I was trying to communicate with GBO who I haven&#39;t heard from a lot lately before you so rudely intervened and confused the issues being discussed. While I welcome intejections from anyone who has something to contribute, you only contributed confusion and denial to MY part of the post, although GBO&#39;s was understood just fine.

 

[Irvy]

Personally, I believe 100% in God, but I&#39;ve lost all faith in the church that claims to represent him. I&#39;ve decided that since God is everywhere, I&#39;ll cut out the middle man, forget about church and their congregation controlling practices, and just have a relationship with the Big Man.

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by Irvy@Oct 21 2005, 02:36 PM
Personally, I believe 100% in God, but I&#39;ve lost all faith in the church that claims to represent him. I&#39;ve decided that since God is everywhere, I&#39;ll cut out the middle man, forget about church and their congregation controlling practices, and just have a relationship with the Big Man.

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A view shared by many including me, my faith is a mix of different denominations

 

[GottaBigOne]

My reason for bringing up the child&#39;s cartoon was to show what some people are teachign our kids. The original poster asked if it was brainwashing, i was giving an example. My point wasn&#39;t really about the bible, but about how people use it, and simplify it, and feed it to kids.

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by GottaBigOne@Oct 21 2005, 03:23 PM
My reason for bringing up the child&#39;s cartoon was to show what some people are teachign our kids. The original poster asked if it was brainwashing, i was giving an example. My point wasn&#39;t really about the bible, but about how people use it, and simplify it, and feed it to kids.

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OK, then I&#39;m sorry if misunderstood you

And thank you for replying without launching a long winded personal post of childish fury at me

This way of resolving things is far more civil

 

[Pecker]

Originally posted by DC_DEEP+Oct 21 2005, 09:28 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_DEEP &#064; Oct 21 2005, 09:28 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Pecker@Oct 21 2005, 09:06 AM
Lucifer didn&#39;t disagree directly with Michael, but with Jehovah (Jesus).

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??? I was under the impression that Jehovah (Yahweh) was the name for God (but only written without vowels, and never ever pronounced)

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Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

God the Father is Elohim.

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by Pecker@Oct 21 2005, 03:48 PM
Jesus is the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

God the Father is Elohim.

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Oooh, impressive, are you a follower or a man of the cloth yourself?

(or a busy Googler) :happy:

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Originally posted by HappyHammer1977@Oct 21 2005, 01:41 PM
No, I wasn&#39;t joking. What WAS God doing before he created everything?

And more importantly - Who created God?

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I&#39;ll askthe above question again, before I&#39;m off for the weekend&#33;

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by HappyHammer1977+Oct 21 2005, 04:03 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HappyHammer1977 &#064; Oct 21 2005, 04:03 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-HappyHammer1977@Oct 21 2005, 01:41 PM
No, I wasn&#39;t joking. What WAS God doing before he created everything?

And more importantly - Who created God?

[post=353855]Quoted post[/post]​

I&#39;ll askthe above question again, before I&#39;m off for the weekend&#33;

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[/b][/quote]
-Eternity has no start so obviously there can&#39;t be half of it
-No one created God

But as to what he was doing before creating earth? Maybe it&#39;s answers on a postcard time

Maybe he was trying to assemble an Ikea wardrobe but decided that creating the heavens, Earth and all living beings was the easier option

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Originally posted by Dorset+Oct 21 2005, 05:09 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dorset &#064; Oct 21 2005, 05:09 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by HappyHammer1977@Oct 21 2005, 04:03 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-HappyHammer1977

@Oct 21 2005, 01:41 PM
No, I wasn&#39;t joking. What WAS God doing before he created everything?

And more importantly - Who created God?

[post=353855]Quoted post[/post]​

I&#39;ll askthe above question again, before I&#39;m off for the weekend&#33;

[post=353905]Quoted post[/post]​

-Eternity has no start so obviously there can&#39;t be half of it
-No one created God

But as to what he was doing before creating earth? Maybe it&#39;s answers on a postcard time

Maybe he was trying to assemble an Ikea wardrobe but decided that creating the heavens, Earth and all living beings was the easier option

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[/b][/quote]

But you know what I mean; if eternity can be measured, we&#39;re all currently slap bang in the middle of it. And when God created everything, he was in the middle of it at that time.

No one created God? Did he create himself?

That could well be a theological conundrum in itself, based on the theroum that we are all just a figment of our own imagination; If God created himself and I am just a dreamstate create by myself, does this mean I am God?
(I&#39;m not serious in that statement&#33; (Or do I think I am?&#33)

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by HappyHammer1977@Oct 21 2005, 04:15 PM
if eternity can be measured, we&#39;re all currently slap bang in the middle of it.

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Eternity can&#39;t be measured, by definition it has no beginning and no end
I think it covers a lot of this in &#39;A brief history of time&#39;

Read it over the weekend and post what you found out on Monday :evilgrin:

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Originally posted by Dorset+Oct 21 2005, 05:19 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dorset &#064; Oct 21 2005, 05:19 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-HappyHammer1977@Oct 21 2005, 04:15 PM
if eternity can be measured, we&#39;re all currently slap bang in the middle of it.

[post=353908]Quoted post[/post]​

Eternity can&#39;t be measured, by definition it has no beginning and no end
I think it covers a lot of this in &#39;A brief history of time&#39;

Read it over the weekend and post what you found out on Monday :evilgrin:

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That&#39;s my point...how can God have created anything &#39;from the beginning&#39;?

(Genius that he is, many of Hawkings theories have been widely discredited)

 

[Dorset]

Originally posted by HappyHammer1977@Oct 21 2005, 04:22 PM
(Genius that he is, many of Hawkings theories have been widely discredited)

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Eternity isn&#39;t a Hawkins theory, it&#39;s in the dictionary
Whether time is eternal or not is another question, but there&#39;s no way of knowing it&#39;s eternal because if it is then we&#39;ll never hit the end of time and if it isn&#39;t then we&#39;d all be dead so we&#39;re a bit screwed with that one

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Originally posted by Dorset+Oct 21 2005, 05:29 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dorset &#064; Oct 21 2005, 05:29 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-HappyHammer1977@Oct 21 2005, 04:22 PM
(Genius that he is, many of Hawkings theories have been widely discredited)

[post=353911]Quoted post[/post]​

Eternity isn&#39;t a Hawkins theory, it&#39;s in the dictionary
Whether time is eternal or not is another question, but there&#39;s no way of knowing it&#39;s eternal because if it is then we&#39;ll never hit the end of time and if it isn&#39;t then we&#39;d all be dead so we&#39;re a bit screwed with that one

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Thats the point again; the planet earth WILL end at some point, by which time, mankind will have already trotted off. But the universe will still be there. Therefore there is no physical way (mathmatically in theory) of defining time.

If God is eternal and time is eternal - is God actually time? Is God just a metaphore for birth and creationism and Satan a metaphore for death and destruction?


(Wasn&#39;t saying it was a Hawking theory, btw, just slagging him off&#33;&#33; Nah, you can&#39;t slag him off&#33; He like the Simpsons&#33;&#33;&#33

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by DC_DEEP+Oct 21 2005, 08:28 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_DEEP &#064; Oct 21 2005, 08:28 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Pecker@Oct 21 2005, 09:06 AM
Lucifer didn&#39;t disagree directly with Michael, but with Jehovah (Jesus). 

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??? I was under the impression that Jehovah (Yahweh) was the name for God (but only written without vowels, and never ever pronounced)

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[/b][/quote]

Jehovah is formed by adding the vowels of the Hebrew word Adonai (&#39;Lord&#39 to the consonants YHWH (Latinised as JHVH, the personal name of the Hebrew God. (Why it is spelled as Jehovah rather than *Yahovah would require some knowledge of Hebrew phonology. In Hebrew, the derived form is actually spelled with a schwa.) Hebrew, both classical and modern, is most commonly written without vowels except in texts intended for those learning the language. The actual vowels that accompany the tetragrammaton (YHWH) are not known for certain. Whenever the tetragrammaton appeared in a prayer or Scripture, the title Adonai was pronounced instead. That is why the word &#39;Lord&#39; appears in small capitals so often in English editions of the Old Testament: it represents where the Hebrew text has the sacred name of God written. The name of God did have vowels, and it was pronounced once a year by the high priests in the Holy of Holies before the fall of Jerusalem. YHWH is derived from the Hebrew verb meaning &#39;to be&#39;, recalling God telling Moses that his name was &#39;I Am Who Am&#39;, an allusion to His eternal nature.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by HappyHammer1977@Oct 21 2005, 11:40 AM
Thats the point again; the planet earth WILL end at some point, by which time, mankind will have already trotted off. But the universe will still be there. Therefore there is no physical way (mathmatically in theory) of defining time.

If God is eternal and time is eternal - is God actually time? Is God just a metaphore for birth and creationism and Satan a metaphore for death and destruction?

Sure, the planet will come to an ends, but time will not. Time is an abstract concept that exists outside of physical context. Time exists outside of matter. Similarly, eternity transcends time. In theological terms, God is Infinite: without a beginning or end. He is not bound by the physicality of man. If God were not infinite, i. e. eternal, He would not be God. Infinity is beyond our grasp because everything we are familiar with has a starting point and an end. That is one of the mysteries of religion, and that is where faith comes into play. We recognise that there are points that neither science nor theology can explain, but we trust that lack of explanation doesn&#39;t necessarily mean lack of existence.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper@Oct 21 2005, 01:48 PM
Jehovah is formed by adding the vowels of the Hebrew word Adonai (&#39;Lord&#39 to the consonants YHWH (Latinised as JHVH, the personal name of the Hebrew God....

YHWH is derived from the Hebrew verb meaning &#39;to be&#39;, recalling God telling Moses that his name was &#39;I Am Who Am&#39;, an allusion to His eternal nature.

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Alright, thank you for clearing that up. I had the basic idea, but not much in the way of details. But you seem to be confirming my point and negating Pecker&#39;s post. Does jehovah refer to god or to jesus?