Does anyone actually still believe in God?

[breeze]

Technically you're right i suppose. Forgive my typing errors from time to time. Sometimes i'm rushed. The commentary cited the study. The study has i think been published but only in french by the universtiy of paris. You can probably buy it somewhere. It only semantics unless the commentary is misleading or misquoting the study which i seriously doubt. The other study in 1998 confirms the conclusions of the 2 previous studies. You could email the web site and they could probably tell you where to find the original study. { they usually reply within hours } I have seen the study listed or rather the book published by the professor but only in french.

 

[Onslow]

Originally posted by GottaBigOne@Oct 22 2005, 11:24 PM

I think the insertion on events in your life are totally irrelevent to the question of the actual existence of a god. Because you lost your leg does not mean that a god does or does not exist. It may mean that "IF" a god existed then apparently your having your leg is of little consequence to it. Also, the fact that you feel "looked after" whether you actually are looked after or not is equally irrelevant.

Also (try to help me understand) how is "humility" a gift? By this I mean first: how was it given and not attained by yourself. Second: Is humility always a good thing? i.e. how is it good if it is irrational?

[post=354307]Quoted post[/post]​

Sorry to disagree with you; but, I feel the information on facts of what has happened within my life is extremely relevant. These events (or similar ones) have happened to others and they believe that this is proof that there is no God. So, yes it is most certainly relevant. As to your dumb-ass assertion that my leg meant nothing to me, you need a reality check. My leg meant a great deal to me; however I did things which led me to a point of having to give it up--1 car, 1 drunken driver, 1 hard object to crash into, 1 man passing out coning to days later being given the news. Sorry to shock you; but I cried like a baby for a few months and at times still do. Apparently the leg meant more to me than you want to believe.

So my believing I am being cared for by a loving God is also irrelevant? Interesting. Care to explain that what? My having a belief that I am being taken care of is part and parcel of my belief in God, they cannot be, will not, be disentwined.

Humility as a gift--it means I have to be reiminded on a regular basis that I cannot do everything on my own, I need help. Before I crashed the car I did everything on my own, never a request for anything from anyone. Afterwards, I needed to ask for just about everything. Even from the start--and I know this will screw with your mind--I never blamed God for what had happened. Just an inner belief. No way to fully describe or explain to a non-believer, or a doubter what is an intrinsic part of my being.

I have had to ask for assistance on many things, wrapping my stump properly at the start, keeping infections fromn setting in, getting the prosthesis attached when I had a broken hand--broke when I fell while trying to prove I didn't need any "fucking assistive devices". The man I turned to was a neighbor who I couldn't stand, but Ray was away and I had no choice (or at least felt I didn't). God allowed me to have interaction with that man and ask his help and although we are not top notch friends even now I no longer despise him, that humility exercised by asking for help gave me an inner peace even though at the time I was still drinking just about round the clock. So for me humility is a gift. Humility is irrational according to you--your belief, your choice; not mine. To me humility is quite rational. There was a lucidness and a humility of having a man I did not know, much less like, come by each day to make sure I was okay. Moree proof of God and being taken care of? This same man stayed at night when I would be too drunk (from self pity over the leg you say I don't miss) to be left alone safely. For 3 weeks he looked out for me. I don't look at is as a bad thing, God gave me what was needed to survive, the means were there; but I had to use humility to access them.

Bottom line here GBO is that we have different views, and I will not make major attempts to change yours. You see things as irrational, irrelevant and what not, I see those same things as rational and relevant--such is life.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Originally posted by Onslow@Oct 23 2005, 07:32 AM
Bottom line here GBO is that we have different views, and I will not make major attempts to change yours. You see things as irrational, irrelevant and what not, I see those same things as rational and relevant--such is life.

[post=354491]Quoted post[/post]​

Well said.

 

[breeze]

I noticed while looking for a link to Henri Joyeaux's study that Ivan Dragicivic has a speaking schedule. { not set for the fall yet } Ivan is the medjugorje visionary {i think} who supposely , as a child , toured heaven. { medjugorje.org } He lectures for free usually as part of a catholic conference. It would be interesting to hear a fuller description of " what is heaven like ?". {whether real or not}

 

[GottaBigOne]

I did not say that your feeling were irrelevant universally, of course they have meaning to you. I said that they were irrelevant to the issue of whether or not God actually exists. I didn't say that your leg meant nothing to you I said that losing your leg was of little consequence to God if he did exist. Please try to read more carefully.
Also I do not think Humility is always irrational. I was asking if you still think its good when it is, and it can be. The reason I asked if it was a gift is because I was asking if it necessarily had to be, i.e. didn't you develop your humility all by yourself, by realizing that being obtuse and thinking you could walk with one leg wasn't really working, so you had to put away a false pride in order to ask for assistance from other human beings. What did god have to do with that? Seems like the reality of being a social being made you humble.
The fact of the matter is that yes, you are being looked at, by other human beings. Why is it so hard to give the credit to them without saying that they are acting as God's agents? Why can't people just be good nice people and want to help out a disabled man???? Why is God needed? IS it because we are all inherently evil, so when there are a few who do good deeds, it must be God's intervention? What kind of view of humanity is that? Yes, you lost your leg, it was your fault, and now the people you once despised are now coming to your aid, maybe when you felt that you would never come to theirs, and maybe that makes you feel a little guilty. You feel that they are somehow better than you, and your ego can't take that, so you accredit their compassion with an outside source (I don't expect you take this part seriously, and i expect you to deny it vehemently, but take a look inside your own motivations and find out what really moves you, those are the devils inside).
The bottom line is, we have different views on reality. I will work as hard as I can to change yours, because I feel they are wrong, and evil. But I will not force you to change your views, I respect your right to have them if you want, but I will not sit silently and watch a fellow human being get lost in disillusionment. I see certain things as being irrational, you see them too, but choose the ignore them. I want to lift the cover from your eyes.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Originally posted by GottaBigOne@Oct 23 2005, 04:38 PM
The bottom line is, we have different views on reality. I will work as hard as I can to change yours, because I feel they are wrong, and evil. But I will not force you to change your views, I respect your right to have them if you want, but I will not sit silently and watch a fellow human being get lost in disillusionment. I see certain things as being irrational, you see them too, but choose the ignore them. I want to lift the cover from your eyes.

[post=354596]Quoted post[/post]​

GBO, that's frightening. I see little difference between an evangelical theist and an evangelical atheist. I'm not sure what you mean by "I will work as hard as I can to change yours" immediately followed by "I will not force you to change your views." Maybe just semantics, but I see very little difference. Working hard to change someone's views is not much different from the door-to-door jehovah saleswomen. I've had to answer the door naked before, to get rid of them.

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Oct 23 2005, 09:24 PM
I see little difference between an evangelical theist and an evangelical atheist.

[post=354610]Quoted post[/post]​

simple: the difference is that the theist is clearly and demonstrably wrong.

the actual issue is whether you consider that to be a difference that justifies intervention, or whether you consider it irrelevant compared to the idea of freedom of belief.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Originally posted by Dr Rock+Oct 23 2005, 06:56 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rock &#064; Oct 23 2005, 06:56 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DC_DEEP@Oct 23 2005, 09:24 PM
I see little difference between an evangelical theist and an evangelical atheist.

[post=354610]Quoted post[/post]​

simple: the difference is that the theist is clearly and demonstrably wrong.

the actual issue is whether you consider that to be a difference that justifies intervention, or whether you consider it irrelevant compared to the idea of freedom of belief.

[post=354638]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
That is absolutely ludicrous. I have yet to see either side of the theological debate PROVE their argument. Clearly and demonstrably wrong? I don&#39;t think so.

And the issue of freedom of belief is PRECISELY what I was talking about - not the content of the views, but the mistaken perception that those views have enough superiority to negate the other person&#39;s right to believe as they choose to. The end, in this case, does not justify the means. Pretty fucked up, dude, claiming that you have all the universal answers.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Oct 23 2005, 06:20 PM
And the issue of freedom of belief is PRECISELY what I was talking about - not the content of the views, but the mistaken perception that those views have enough superiority to negate the other person&#39;s right to believe as they choose to. The end, in this case, does not justify the means. Pretty fucked up, dude, claiming that you have all the universal answers.

That has always been Rock&#39;s position: "I know absolutely nothing about religion; and that qualifies to me state that organised religion (which I know nothing about) is wrong." Of course it&#39;s ludicrous to condemn something that you know nothing about. It&#39;s fine to refrain from practising religion, but to claim that others that practise their religions are stupid and weak of will to do so is beyond fucked up.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Oct 23 2005, 09:24 PM
I&#39;ve had to answer the door naked before, to get rid of them.

[post=354610]Quoted post[/post]​

I&#39;ve done that too. It works.

SG

 

[GoneA]

Originally posted by SpeedoGuy+Oct 24 2005, 02:07 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SpeedoGuy &#064; Oct 24 2005, 02:07 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DC_DEEP@Oct 23 2005, 09:24 PM
I&#39;ve had to answer the door naked before, to get rid of them.

[post=354610]Quoted post[/post]​

I&#39;ve done that too. It works.

SG

[post=354666]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

I surprised they STOPPED coming to your door.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Originally posted by Onslow@Oct 23 2005, 11:32 AM
I never blamed God for what had happened. Just an inner belief. No way to fully describe or explain to a non-believer, or a doubter what is an intrinsic part of my being.

The man I turned to was a neighbor who I couldn&#39;t stand, but Ray was away and I had no choice (or at least felt I didn&#39;t).  God allowed me to have interaction with that man and ask his help and although we are not top notch friends even now I no longer despise him, that humility exercised by asking for help gave me an inner peace even though at the time I was still drinking just about round the clock. 

Good on you, Onslow, for the maturity of your faith.

I&#39;ve also been through crippling accidents and they changed my outlook on life. I&#39;ve never been the type to claim that accidents happen for God&#39;s reasons. I just don&#39;t buy that because bad shit happens to otherwise good people. But if any good can come out of the aftermath of accidents, you&#39;ve stated a good example of it in your post.

SG

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by DC_DEEP+Oct 23 2005, 11:20 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DC_DEEP &#064; Oct 23 2005, 11:20 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>And the issue of freedom of belief is PRECISELY what I was talking about - not the content of the views, but the mistaken perception that those views have enough superiority to negate the other person&#39;s right to believe as they choose to.[/b]

... which is an entirely different question from whether any given belief is "right" or "wrong."

Pretty fucked up, dude, claiming that you have all the universal answers.

[post=354647]Quoted post[/post]​

don&#39;t recall having ever said that. I don&#39;t have, need, or desire any "universal answers."

<!--QuoteBegin-DoubleMeatWhopper@Oct 24 2005, 01:35 AM
That has always been Rock&#39;s position: "I know absolutely nothing about religion; and that qualifies to me state that organised religion (which I know nothing about) is wrong."

[post=354663]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]
*yawn* I know more than enough to know that it&#39;s wrong; that&#39;s only a simple matter of observation. if an alien observer with no prior knowledge or familiarity with the organized religions of earth flew over right now in his little saucer, he&#39;d rapidly arrive at the exact same conclusion. you may find something terribly interesting in the details of dogma and historical irrelevancies within or between particular organized cults, but I&#39;m only interested in their observable effects in the real world. I already know there ain&#39;t any revelations in religious literature or ceremony sufficiently astounding to excuse the ugly facts of organized religion, so I don&#39;t see much point wasting my time in accumulating useless knowledge for its own sake.

 

[GottaBigOne]

"Working hard to change your ideas" does not involve the use of force, what I mean by that is that I will work hard to try to convince you that your views are incorrect and/or irrational.

 

[GottaBigOne]

The difference between an evangelical theist and an evangelical atheist is that the atheist can prove that the theist is wrong.
I do not mean to say that I can prove that "no god exists." the burden of proof lies with the theist. I have not seen an argument for god stand up to the test of logic.

 

[madame_zora]

GBO, while I appreciate the vigor of your argument, I still must convey that absence of proof is hardly proof of absence.

That you could prove inconsistancies in the Bible, I have no doubt, but this will not move the faithful from their postion. Those who choose to accept the unsubstantial nature of those writings do not hang their beliefs of notions of provable reality. The problem we have in communication (people in general, not you and I) is that there are significant differences in reality perception between people, and in groups it&#39;s even more noticable.
What you would call a "rational discussion" is simply not possible with a vast many people, because their answers will inevitably be something based on feelings or faith.

I don&#39;t know the details of the ancient Greek&#39;s beliefs that we now refer to as "mythology". I studied it in my youth and found it fascinating, but only as stories. I never looked to the sky expecting to see Zeus or Mercury. Personally, I am unable to look any differently on any other set of religious ideas. I find no way to accept one set of mythologies above another, but for those who do I think no amount of explaining or debunking will serve any purpose other than alienation. At some point I must accept that they have a right to believe whatever they choose, just as I do. If I want to divorce myself from something I find innane, the best thing (for me) to do is just not expend myself where the potential for profit is so low.

 

[GottaBigOne]

I did not say that there is simply a lack of proof for god, but that the descriptions of certain, and most gods are logically inconsistent and CANNOT exist.

I know that debating theists is of little use because usually the motivation for belief is not rational but emotional, but that doesn&#39;t mean I can not try. I believe that religion is one of the worst things to happen to humanity and one of the biggest things that holds us back as a species. And you are right, it is about a different view of reality, and it has all to do with perception. The rational man says "It is therefore I see it" The irrational man says "I see it therefore it is." Cognition is an effect, not a cause. A tree falling in the forest will make a sound (or more accurately, sound waves) regardless of whether someone was there to hear it or not. SImilarly the universe is as it is no matter what we wish, or pray for, or think it should be. Carried out to it practical application the irrational man is subject to superstitions, wishful thinking, prayer, as if his mind, his tool of percieving reality, can somehow alter or change reality. Irrational men are not concerned with truth, but what they want. "I want it, therefore it is," rather than "It is therefore I want it." "I believe it with all my heart therefore it is."
The rational man says: "It is therefore I have no choice but to believe it." to do otherwise would be unreal.
That is what I will fight for, because we can not survive as a species if we do not deal with reality on its terms.

 

[Love-it]

If there is a god, it must have a sense of humor.

See how the phrase turns when you want god to be capitalized and/or not be gender specific.

 

[Love-it]

When I told a friend that I don&#39;t believe in god, he said, and I quote:

"Thats all right, God believes in you."

I thought it was a well turned phrase.

 

[Love-it]

When I told a friend that I don&#39;t believe in god, he said, and I quote:

"Thats all right, God believes in you."

I thought it was a well turned phrase.