Does HIV cause Aids?

Andro Man

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I want to address a point about the credentials of the Nobel Laureates who are championing this cause. James Watson of Watson and Crick fame is a Nobel laureate, but if you read some of the ridiculous things that he's been spouting since then, you'll see that even Nobel laureates are fallible and not all knowing, even in the fields they made themselves famous with. Most scientists are very well trained but know a very narrow area of their specialty to an expert level. It does not follow that any Nobel laureate just because they won the prize is an expert in Infectious Disease medicine and specifically, HIV and AIDS.

This anti-HIV theory has been around for years. The most vocal proponent has been Peter Duesburg, who has volunteered on many occasions to inject himself with HIV but has never done so. I think this is telling. Also, for every Duesburg out there, there are thousands of scientists and medical professionals who have studied and seen HIV and AIDS from every possible perspective who agree that HIV causes AIDS.

Yes, HIV causing AIDS is just a theory, the same as gravity is. At the moment, it's the best that we've got and the life of people with HIV has undeniably been extended with the advent of working medication.


I don't know if he has or has not, but I do know of a man dr Robert Wilner who injected himself with HIV. He neither developed HIV nor AIDS from it.
 

Andro Man

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Oh my god, this thread has got me so pissed off!

First, I watched your little video. Ridiculous. Nothing but posturing and side stepping legalese not even fit for a courtroom. Your ‘Noble Prize Laureate’ is simple displaying stung pride at not getting the mention or credit. The argument is nothing more than a search for loopholes in order to put the search back on the table so that names can go down in the annuls of medical history.

Second, your ignorance, and disrespect are in the poorest of taste. People living with HIV and with AIDS are an Autonomous Fact.

What is an Autonomous Fact, you say? It is something that exists regardless of opinion. It cannot be changed by simply changing one’s viewpoint.

I have HIV.

That is an Autonomous Fact.

I was diagnosed in 2001 and I am certain as to the very date that I was infected. I did not start medication of any kind until I was four-years-in to my situation.

When I was diagnosed I weighed 150 lbs. Normal for me.

When I started medication (Sustiva & Combivir) I was down to 121 lbs, my VL was over 150,000 and my CD4 count had dropped to 140.

Within one month of starting my meds my VL was less than 400 and my CD4 count was rising. Within three months my VL was undetectable and my CD4 count was still rising.

As of today my VL remains undetectable and my CD4 count hovers between 700 and 800.

I do not require the esoteric paper publishing and other brouhaha that your video opines necessary for HIV and AIDS to be taken as fact.

I myself am the fact. I myself am the proof.

Does a body liquefy from Ebola because a research paper says it does?

You have obviously been tested and come up positive. You are either old enough to remember the ‘80s and are scared shitless or you are too young to remember the ‘80s and so you are ignorant.

I pray, truly I do, that you wise up before your mother and father have to watch a 75 lb skeleton of a man, who was once their son, take his last breath before their eyes.

You disrespect everyone who has suffered. You disrespect everyone who has lovingly sat at a bedside, both family and medical professional. You disrespect every aspect of this fight with your denial. You confuse the issue with words and circular arguments.

Dude, you piss me off. :mad:


All I want is the truth.

True I'm no expert, it seems like you have to go and become a medical expert yourself if you want to get any closer to the truth.

I don't deny Aids exists, I'm just starting to wonder if the scientists aren't envoloped in an escalation of commitment throwing good money after bad if there on the wrong track.

Surely these people if what they are saying coming from such respectable scientists could be taken to court if they were lying?

Especially that professor from Australia that said they'd researched (heterosexual)couples of which one was positive.....that the other stayed negative.
If it's a lie why are these people not charged?
That would be the same thing as inciting to murder.

As I stated I don't know what to believe, either way one is lying.

And the fact that people die of Aids and test positive doesn't have to mean there's a causality....
 

Andro Man

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(1) Please try reading what other people write before you respond to their posts. The point they made about Ashe/Magic was that Ashe died because of the lack of efficacious drugs at the time. Maybe you missed what I wrote, Ashe was diagnosed after Magic

(2) I noticed you didn't try to disagree with any of my points because you don't have any scientific knowledge on the subject. I haven't actually been able to read or respond to all yet, don't take it personal, you're not that boring, I'll maybe get to it after

(3) Please try to use at least halfway decent grammar. Right now, it's so bad that it makes your argument even worse if that is possible.
arrogance, nice

(4) I'm assuming you are using "a.b's" to stand for antibiotics. Antibiotics can cause an increased incidence in certain illnesses (like C. diff), but I have never heard anybody with any knowledge suggest that it could cause an increase in Mycobacterial infections. TB is spread in jails because of the crowded living conditions not the use of antibiotics.
Actually it was because a lot of the prisoners didn't complete the cure and unwittingly created superbacteria.
It was an example of misuse of a.b. which can lead your body to become immune to it's workings

(5) They don't just use the Western blot for AIDS detection. They also use an ELISA. I'd explain it, but that gets into issues like sensitivity and specificity and I'm going to assume that would go way over your head.

this was mentioned in the doc if you'd had the openmindedness to watch, but it was stated that most countries used the Western Blot coz it was more effective in spotting HIV which wasn't even that good.
Like the story of this man whose friends had been diagnosed with HIV and then after another test they weren't.....

Or just the general different standards from country to country, the easiest to test positive is Africa(why not plenty people dying there anyway), and Australlia is the hardest . So if you were tested positive in NY with 3 Aidsproteins you would be negative in Australlia where you need 4
 

Bbucko

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All I want is the truth.

True I'm no expert, it seems like you have to go and become a medical expert yourself if you want to get any closer to the truth.

I don't deny Aids exists, I'm just starting to wonder if the scientists aren't envoloped in an escalation of commitment throwing good money after bad if there on the wrong track.

Surely these people if what they are saying coming from such respectable scientists could be taken to court if they were lying?

Especially that professor from Australia that said they'd researched (heterosexual)couples of which one was positive.....that the other stayed negative.
If it's a lie why are these people not charged?
That would be the same thing as inciting to murder.

As I stated I don't know what to believe, either way one is lying.

And the fact that people die of Aids and test positive doesn't have to mean there's a causality....

Batshit bullshit nonsense...don't use anecdote that is unverifiable, link to peer-reviewed. published studies, please.
 

JustAsking

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I want to address a point about the credentials of the Nobel Laureates who are championing this cause. James Watson of Watson and Crick fame is a Nobel laureate, but if you read some of the ridiculous things that he's been spouting since then, you'll see that even Nobel laureates are fallible and not all knowing, even in the fields they made themselves famous with. Most scientists are very well trained but know a very narrow area of their specialty to an expert level. It does not follow that any Nobel laureate just because they won the prize is an expert in Infectious Disease medicine and specifically, HIV and AIDS.

This anti-HIV theory has been around for years. The most vocal proponent has been Peter Duesburg, who has volunteered on many occasions to inject himself with HIV but has never done so. I think this is telling. Also, for every Duesburg out there, there are thousands of scientists and medical professionals who have studied and seen HIV and AIDS from every possible perspective who agree that HIV causes AIDS.

Yes, HIV causing AIDS is just a theory, the same as gravity is. At the moment, it's the best that we've got and the life of people with HIV has undeniably been extended with the advent of working medication.

Snoozan is totally correct. Relying on the testimony of someone with a reputation is not part of the acceptance of scientific theories. This is called "Appeal to Authority", and it is a very weak argument even if the person is a Nobel Prize winner or the acknowledged expert in the field.

Secondly, its even more bogus to appeal to the authority of someone on a subject that is outside their field of expertise. James Watson is not an expert on diseases or the immune system.

This is one of the first warning signs of junk science, that an appeal to authority is made to someone outside of their field of expertise. The hope is that the scientific layman will be impressed by the authority's credentials and you will win the argument. Fortunately, real science is not done this way.

No, this AIDs denier is actively promoting junk science to a lay community that already has little understanding and a basic mistrust of the scientific community. Because of that, he and others like him are easily able to resonate their ideas with the unsuspecting public in very large numbers, and as a result, they are able to affect public policy.

This affect on public policy undermines the funding of real science, and the acceptance of real science. As a result, many people will get sick and die, needlessly. Their blood will be on the hands of people like Andro-Bastard.

Here is the kind of havoc people like him are able to wreak on large populations of children.

Junk science kills. And their proponents are murderers. Give this guy no quarter.

Thank you Snoozan for such a cogent posting.
 

HazelGod

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Especially that professor from Australia that said they'd researched (heterosexual)couples of which one was positive.....that the other stayed negative.
If it's a lie why are these people not charged?
That would be the same thing as inciting to murder.

As I stated I don't know what to believe, either way one is lying.

And the fact that people die of Aids and test positive doesn't have to mean there's a causality....


Spend a little bit of time reading up on the definition and examples of pseudoscience. You'll recognize several of the identifying criteria in this "controversy" of yours.

And the fact that things fall toward the Earth doesn't have to mean that gravity is real...:rolleyes:
 

Wrey

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Don't you mean if you disagree with the establishment you can't be a scientist.....Watch the documentary, sure I can't call myself a scientist, but these people are Nobel laureats professors, phds....

You keep saying this as if it automatically guarantees that these individuals are correct. That is a flawed train of logic. Tragically flawed.
 

Andro Man

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Snoozan is totally correct. Relying on the testimony of someone with a reputation is not part of the acceptance of scientific theories. This is called "Appeal to Authority", and it is a very weak argument even if the person is a Nobel Prize winner or the acknowledged expert in the field.

Secondly, its even more bogus to appeal to the authority of someone on a subject that is outside their field of expertise. James Watson is not an expert on diseases or the immune system.

This is one of the first warning signs of junk science, that an appeal to authority is made to someone outside of their field of expertise. The hope is that the scientific layman will be impressed by the authority's credentials and you will win the argument. Fortunately, real science is not done this way.

No, this AIDs denier is actively promoting junk science to a lay community that already has little understanding and a basic mistrust of the scientific community. Because of that, he and others like him are easily able to resonate their ideas with the unsuspecting public in very large numbers, and as a result, they are able to affect public policy.

This affect on public policy undermines the funding of real science, and the acceptance of real science. As a result, many people will get sick and die, needlessly. Their blood will be on the hands of people like Andro-Bastard.

Here is the kind of havoc people like him are able to wreak on large populations of children.

Junk science kills. And their proponents are murderers. Give this guy no quarter.

Thank you Snoozan for such a cogent posting.


That's what the uninformed people do, people expect experts to know what they're talking about. If you go to a doctor you appeal to authority same as with a shrink.

You're probably doing the same, unless you've researched it with a microscope yourself

Don't blame me for Aids as I stated all I want is the truth.
Any real scientists here?
Or just people that have got there heads up each others asses?
 

Andro Man

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Spend a little bit of time reading up on the definition and examples of pseudoscience. You'll recognize several of the identifying criteria in this "controversy" of yours.

And the fact that things fall toward the Earth doesn't have to mean that gravity is real...:rolleyes:

That's exactly what there saying about the 'scientists' that say HIV causes Aids
 

snoozan

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Here is the kind of havoc people like him are able to wreak on large populations of children.

This is an entirely different subject, but there is very little scientific evidence to support the many arguments of the anti-vaccination movement. The specious link to autism was that the vaccines contained thiomerosol, which they don't anymore, as I recall. There's a large group of adults with autism (not with kids who are autistic) who fight against this kind of misinformation. The problem with not vaccinating children is that it not only puts that child at risk, but an entire community at risk. If there are very few people who can carry a disease, it won't spread in the community.

Not vaccinating is a public health problem, as is spreading this junk that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.

Also, no one (I don't think) has mentioned what these alternative theories imply and possibly why they have stuck around for so long. AIDS isn't caused by a virus you can just get from sex, but from recless overuse of recreational drugs, too much sex, living the "gay lifestyle," being a drug addict, being a prostitute, etc. Then, of course, there's the condemnation of the medical version of a malevolent Big Brother, Big Pharma. These are the makings of a perfect conspiracy theory if I've ever seen one.

Thank you Snoozan for such a cogent posting.

Thank you.
 

HazelGod

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That's exactly what there saying about the 'scientists' that say HIV causes Aids

At the risk of being accused of tossing breadcrumbs under the bridge, would you care to elaborate on precisely what there [sic] saying?

So what's all this:

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/cjtestfp.htm

factors causing false positives....leading to medicin that actually makes them sick

Um, that's an article about factors that can influence the results of an antibody test. Saying that HIV detection tests aren't 100% accurate is a far cry from saying that a subsequent misdiagnosis and treatment regimen causes illness...and it has no bearing AT ALL on whether or not HIV is itself the cause of AIDS.

Do you even understand anything you're reading, or are you just glancing at headlines and pulling the rest from your ass as your go along?
 

Andro Man

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Also, no one (I don't think) has mentioned what these alternative theories imply and possibly why they have stuck around for so long. AIDS isn't caused by a virus you can just get from sex, but from recless overuse of recreational drugs, too much sex, living the "gay lifestyle," being a drug addict, being a prostitute, etc. Then, of course, there's the condemnation of the medical version of a malevolent Big Brother, Big Pharma. These are the makings of a perfect conspiracy theory if I've ever seen one.

First they were trying to claim that cancer was a virus and developed AZT for that, but because it was so lethal and did more harm than good they didn't even patent it. Throwing away billions of dollars in wasted research. Then something like AIDS comes on the scene, start with the same assumption that it was probably a virus that caused it, falsely proven by GAllo....and then 'curing' them with junkmedicin that actually caused immunedeficiency in otherwise healthy but postive patients....

The Nih is a military organisation. They determine top-down what research gets funded and more importantly what doesn't.....So step in line soldier
 

Andro Man

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At the risk of being accused of tossing breadcrumbs under the bridge, would you care to elaborate on precisely what there [sic] saying?



Um, that's an article about factors that can influence the results of an antibody test. Saying that HIV detection tests aren't 100% accurate is a far cry from saying that a subsequent misdiagnosis and treatment regimen causes illness...and it has no bearing AT ALL on whether or not HIV is itself the cause of AIDS.

Do you even understand anything you're reading, or are you just glancing at headlines and pulling the rest from your ass as your go along?

You've obviously got your head so far up your ass that you're not even reading what I'm saying. Or even what the site says....They're talking about false positives and a whole lot of factors that can cause it.....tell that to the millions that died as a result of taking AZT, that it's ok if it's (understatement) not 100% accurate
 

JustAsking

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...Any real scientists here?
Or just people that have got there heads up each others asses?
No, there are no real scientists here who work actively in the field of HIV/AIDs which is precisely why you are here spreading your propaganda. If you were a real scientist you would be doing careful research and publishing your findings in a peer reviewed journal. But no, deniers like you have realized that instead of submitting your evidence into the great court of scientific inquiry, you find it easier to just hang out in the parking lot of the courthouse handing out leaflets.

Your aim is not to change the scientific consensus. Your aim is to change public opinion. That is why this entire argument is not only pointless, but very destructive.