Does roman catholicism beget sexual abuse?

[Perados]

I see the problem in 3 points

1. Chastity
2. Structures of protection
3. The idea that you don't have to fear legal punishment as long as you confess your sins

 

[TexanStar]

I see the problem in 3 points

1. Chastity
2. Structures of protection
3. The idea that you don't have to fear legal punishment as long as you confess your sins

I think the chastity line is just a dodge. It's not like "Oh, I haven't gotten any for a long time so now I need to terrorize minors". If someone was just sexually frustrated there's nothing stopping them from dressing in their day clothes and visiting a prostitute one town over. These are severely disturbed and violent predators.

I'm not advocating chastity. I think that's cultlike rules. I'm just saying I don't think it creates pedophilia.

 

[Chrysippus]

1.) Are you under the impression that the church is turning men into pedophiles as opposed to
2.) pedophiles being attracted to a profession that allows them to predate?

No 'the church' (whatever that is...) is not turning men into pedophiles.
Your second questions is a little harder to sort out: one of the psychiatric arguments that I've heard is that sexual interest in children may owe to the fact that these folks never passed from the sexual practices of late childhood and early adolescent to fully mature interpersonal sex between adults.

also, in regard to the point that females account for only 6% of pedophiles: 6% that are documented, not 6% that actually occur.

 

[TexanStar]

also, in regard to the point that females account for only 6% of pedophiles: 6% that are documented, not 6% that actually occur.

There's a shit ton of male assaults that are undocumented as well. I mean this entire scandal is an example of sexual assaults that have only just come to light after decades.

I do not think that sexual violence towards minors is any more of a gender equal affair than sexual violence towards adults.

 

[Chrysippus]

I see the problem in 3 points

1. Chastity
2. Structures of protection
3. The idea that you don't have to fear legal punishment as long as you confess your sins

Your third point is amusing: kind of like Luther's' pecca fortiter, sed crede fortius' 'sin boldly but believe more strongly' belief solves everything!
Also, you may escape the legal penalty for pedophilia and be forgiven for it.
A friend of mine likens the Christian notion of forgiveness of sin to passing through a turnstile repeatedly. Going through the turnstile enables you to pass from sin to grace and back again, presuming because forgiveness can be counted on.

Chastity??? Meh.

Structures of protection? Obviously.

The problem is still the pursuit and experience of sexual pleasure.

 

[TexanStar]

I posted it here a couple weeks ago here, but this is a very good documentary if you're interested in more details about how these kinds of widespread abuses can occur.

Different diocese, similar kind of abuses (this one possibly including the murder of a nun who was trying to stop it).

 

[malakos]

The problem is still the pursuit and experience of sexual pleasure.

Could you elaborate on this a bit? I know it may seem a pretty obvious answer, but I figure more could be said about how it relates to pedophilia (especially since so many say that sexual exploitation is about power rather than pleasure), and also what you might see as possible remedies to the problem.

 

[Drifterwood]

Yes, they have to get rid of the institution of the papacy and church structures.

I am not sure that that is necessary.

Simply, religions should have no independent judicial powers, nor be allowed to self regulate in matters that break national laws. Withholding information from the State in these matters should incur major prison sentences, fines and perhaps the closure of the institution.

 

[TexanStar]

I am not sure that that is necessary.

Simply, religions should have no independent judicial powers, nor be allowed to self regulate in matters that break national laws. Withholding information from the State in these matters should incur major prison sentences, fines and perhaps the closure of the institution.

And good luck with the constitutional amendment that would be necessary to enact such measures I guess?

 

[Drifterwood]

And good luck with the constitutional amendment that would be necessary to enact such measures I guess?

Does your constitution defend illegality??

 

[weho48]

Celebacy or abstinence is physically impossible to maintain..the body was not designed for it,

 

[weho48]

Just my opinion sorry.

 

[TexanStar]

Does your constitution defend illegality??

Our constitution prohibits congress from enacting any laws that would prevent the free exercise of religion.

Clergy are not immune from legal prosecution and are subject to the same laws as the laity, but they are not compelled to violate the sanctity of the confessional, for example.

There is not going to be any government supervision and management of US churches on this issue. It's not, however, an area where the church membership is completely powerless. Much of this is coming out specifically because the church membership is pushing to have it addressed when the clergy is not.

 

[Chrysippus]

When the Roman church decides to walk in Jesus' footsteps, and only then, will this crap stop.

Well, not exactly...'walking in Jesus' footsteps'

so many say that sexual exploitation is about power rather than pleasure

I agree that this is a popular opinion, but that applies more to object rape than sexual activity from which the perpetrator receives sexual pleasure. I think the power dynamic concept of rape is an opinion, not an established fact.

 

[Drifterwood]

Our constitution prohibits congress from enacting any laws that would prevent the free exercise of religion.

Clergy are not immune from legal prosecution and are subject to the same laws as the laity, but they are not compelled to violate the sanctity of the confessional, for example.

There is not going to be any government supervision and management of US churches on this issue. It's not, however, an area where the church membership is completely powerless. Much of this is coming out specifically because the church membership is pushing to have it addressed when the clergy is not.

Surely the free exercise of religion does not include institutional pederasty and paedophilia and covering it up?

 

[Chrysippus]

I do not think that sexual violence towards minors is any more of a gender equal affair than sexual violence towards adults.

I never said it was; I said that there are women pedophiles, period.

 

[Chrysippus]

Surely the free exercise of religion does not include institutional pederasty and paedophilia and covering it up?

No one in this forum has said that it does.

 

[Jason]

I am not sure that that is necessary.

Simply, religions should have no independent judicial powers, nor be allowed to self regulate in matters that break national laws. Withholding information from the State in these matters should incur major prison sentences, fines and perhaps the closure of the institution.

The Roman Catholic Church regards itself as above all sovereign states and above all temporal legal systems. This is not just an attribute of the RC Church but is fundamental to the theology of its existence. Christ made St Peter his successor and the pope is the successor of Peter. Just as Christ is subservient to no-one, so the RC Church is subservient to no one. The Holy Ghost speaks through one, holy, catholic and apostolic church (and the RC church believes it is this).

If the RC were to lose its independent judicial powers it would cease to exist. It would not become a RC church stripped of these powers, but would have denied its own foundation document (The Nicene Creed) and therefore its own existence. I would like this outcome (so good luck with your policy!) but it isn't going to happen.

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All churches (and I suppose all religions) have a potential friction surface when their own views conflict with the laws of the state. There are times when (with hindsight) we surely all agree with churches that stood against the state in some areas. For example there were some Christian denominations that stood against Hitler, and I think we all today praise them for this. The RC Church in effect accepted Hitler, and today we surely all condemn.

Quakers in the slave-owning states of the USA had many problems around their belief that slavery was wrong. Many stood against slavery and helped fleeing slaves. The "underground railroad" from the southern states to Canada was a largely-Quaker and low-Church project. I assume that today we all think the Quakers got it right.

I do think that Churches can and should on occasions stand against nations and legal systems. However there has to be full scrutiny. In the case of the Quaker rail-road the decisions of individuals were subject to scrutiny within that church (through what is called a "meeting for clearness"). This is a process that would have happened thousands of times with a lot of soul-searching, reflecting the seriousness of opposing the law. It is a process fundamentally different from the RC cannon law system where a doctrine from a Church Council is applied.
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I think the problem you set out @Drifterwood is within the RC Church itself, not in the way society or nations try to legislate. The Westminster Confession sets out the view that the pope has no jurisdiction over the magistrate (XXIII) - surely your view and mine. However he pope claims precisely this power. The Westminster Confession addresses this in XXV. It does so in colourful language, and I know many get hot under the collar. The pope "exalts himself" in claiming a power he doesn't have. As the WC says that that power is Christ's the pope is termed the anti-Christ.

 

[Jason]

Does your constitution defend illegality??

The problem is that the RC Church does not accept the US constitution, or the constitution or laws of any nation.

 

[Chrysippus]

The problem is that the RC Church does not accept the US constitution, or the constitution or laws of any nation.

Why should it?
Beyond that, however, RC clergy in this country are subject to the same laws as lay persons. Clergy can be arrested, prosecuted and convicted of crimes, are subject to legal penalties for their crimes, and dioceses and religious orders can be and have been successfully sued for financial damages.