Does roman catholicism beget sexual abuse?

[deleted15807]

The church gives you access to authority and also (at least in the past) access to children with complete trust from the local catholic community.

I never understand why "humans" don't understand priests are "humans" too. And with that comes all the baggage of being human. They may like them to be messengers from whatever god they believe in but that's a myth. And unfortunately when you believe in myths there can be a big price to pay for them.

 

[Drifterwood]

The problem is that the RC Church does not accept the US constitution, or the constitution or laws of any nation.

When push come to shove, do any religious institutions accept secular constitutions when they oppose their beliefs and morality?

This does not apply just to religions, ask Nixon, Banks, Police Forces etc etc.

 

[Chrysippus]

And unfortunately when you believe in myths there can be a big price to pay for them.

Would you care for an apple?

 

[Jason]

When push come to shove, do any religious institutions accept secular constitutions when they oppose their beliefs and morality?

This does not apply just to religions, ask Nixon, Banks, Police Forces etc etc.

Some do.

Many would say that there are lines that a nation state can cross. At Nuremberg there was a distinction made between legality and legitimacy. However this is a rare extreme.

Many religions would see that their part is to work within the national structures to make the world a better place.

 

[b.c.]

I am not sure that that is necessary.

Simply, religions should have no independent judicial powers, nor be allowed to self regulate in matters that break national laws. Withholding information from the State in these matters should incur major prison sentences, fines and perhaps the closure of the institution.

Yes, I agree.

I think it has more to do with that "absolute power corrupting" adage. I'd suspect that the RC isn't alone in this kind of atrocity (for example, evangelists backed Roy Moore in spite of a lot of evidence of questionable behavior) and maybe this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Generally speaking, I think the corruption and coverup comes whenever certain people or groups are held (or BELIEVE themselves) to be above the law AND are allowed to police THEMSELVES.

Laws should apply EQUALLY to EVERYONE.

 

[Chrysippus]

Many religions would see that their part is to work within the national structures to make the world a better place.

Huh?

 

[TexanStar]

I never understand why "humans" don't understand priests are "humans" too. And with that comes all the baggage of being human. They may like them to be messengers from whatever god they believe in but that's a myth. And unfortunately when you believe in myths there can be a big price to pay for them.

Certainly within the Catholic church and the Episcopal church and even Judaism (the three with which I have personal familiarity), people are well aware because those clerical leaders are also part of the community. I'd run into my priest around town and shoot the breeze about this and that, one of my close friend's dad was a Rabbi, etc.

It's that familiarity that the community has with these individuals that can also create obstacles when there are accusations of abuse. It's easier for people to digest accusations against some mythical figure who never ventures down out of the castle compared to someone who people have eaten dinner with, worked alongside, etc. The clergy who commit these crimes are generally very involved in the community in some fashion or another.

 

[twoton]

Right now RCs condemn the abuse but still treat the issues as unconnected with the failings of the governance of the RC Church.

First I'll respond with a loaded question: Where are the moderate Muslims in the struggle against Islamic terror?

Second, I disagree. The strongest pushes against the Church's response to the abuse has come from the Catholic laity. I think you'll see more and more open condemnation of the Church hierarchy. It's necessary and critical that this happen.

I'll try to make this brief because it has been a repeated gut punch for me over the past 24 hours.

I'm a lifelong RC. Despite the random shit I post on here, I've tried to live as close as I can to the tenets of the Catholic faith. I've done my best to meet my obligations to my Church. I was actually proud to belong to a people who are doing so many great things around the world (if you want to argue that with snarks and criticisms and counterarguments, whatever. Fuck you. That's a preemptive fuck you.)

And now, it's like one of the overriding single most important parts of who I've always been has been cut open like a frickin broadsword went in at my clavicle and zipped me open to the hip.

For all these years I've followed the rules set down by men. I didn't always agree with them, but I was willing to accept them as the way it is. A this point there is no credibility left to those rules and the men who created them.

Today was a holy day of obligation. That means a faithful Catholic was supposed to have attended Mass. I couldn't go. I couldn't get myself to step inside the church and face the betrayal.

My wife is bordering on walking away from it entirely. (I told her I can't do that. But that was yesterday. I'm even more upset today).

The priest that married us is on the list (forcing himself on adult and adolescent women). He also baptized our first child.

Two of the priests who taught my wife in high school are on the list (one for abusing boys and girls, one for abusing boys and soliciting gay prostitutes).

The one brighter spot--our current priest is in the report as someone who not only reported an abuser but also, in defiance of the directions of his superior, helped one of the victims.

I feel utter sadness for the actual victims, and I've always believed that the perpetrators must be handled by law enforcement, not prayers. For me personally, however, the hypocrisy, the lost credibility, the distrust, etc. etc. etc. has beaten me down to where it might take the rest of my life to recover, and even then I might not. I'll always be a Catholic, but I'm not yet sure I can be a church going Catholic anymore.

 

[twoton]

The problem is that the RC Church does not accept the US constitution, or the constitution or laws of any nation.

Catholics are obligated to follow just laws, e.g. the US Constitution. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. . .

 

[twoton]

Certainly within the Catholic church and the Episcopal church and even Judaism (the three with which I have personal familiarity), people are well aware because those clerical leaders are also part of the community. I'd run into my priest around town and shoot the breeze about this and that, one of my close friend's dad was a Rabbi, etc.

It's that familiarity that the community has with these individuals that can also create obstacles when there are accusations of abuse. It's easier for people to digest accusations against some mythical figure who never ventures down out of the castle compared to someone who people have eaten dinner with, worked alongside, etc. The clergy who commit these crimes are generally very involved in the community in some fashion or another.

Certainly no priest, but Jerry Sandusky is the glaring example.

 

[TexanStar]

First I'll respond with a loaded question: Where are the moderate Muslims in the struggle against Islamic terror?

I've tried to live as close as I can to the tenets of the Catholic faith..

 

[twoton]

Believe it or not, I do try.

And I apologize for the preemptive 'fuck you.' I'm hurting a whole lot and not altogether rational re: this subject.

 

[Drifterwood]

Catholics are obligated to follow just laws, e.g. the US Constitution. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. . .

All institutions are corruptible, but it would appear, some more than others, and that has to be about their culture and tenets.

Consider the liquor licensing laws. What if some guys realised that their access to and local control of alcohol gave them the power to trade drink for sex with minors? What if we then found out that the biggest liquor licensee across the country knew that this had been going on since they started, but had covered it up, harassed the victims and their families, and protected the perpetrators, even moving them from State to State to avoid the law and protect the company?

You have my sympathy btw.

 

[tripod]

300 priests in Pennsylvania alone... and presumably that is just the 300 that were caught or that confessed?!?!?

Sorry.

That's not a religion, that is a SEX CULT.

 

[Chrysippus]

Consider the liquor licensing laws. What if some guys realised that their access to and local control of alcohol gave them the power to trade drink for sex with minors? What if we then found out that the biggest liquor licensee across the country knew that this had been going on since they started, but had covered it up, harassed the victims and their families, and protected the perpetrators, even moving them from State to State to avoid the law and protect the company?

Your analogy is a gratuitous remove from the truth that gets us no closer to an understanding of the thread topic.

 

[185248]

This Forum used to be very vocal on such issues, but one of the most shocking stories has just been laid bare in Pennsylvania and not a word.

Two of the UK's most famous private schools have just been officially exposed for having institutionalised sexual abuse for many many years. These schools are run by Benedictine monks.

I know someone who went to one and he told me before the report came out about the abuse. As with Pennsylvania, you can be sure that the reality has been far worse than the report.

In my opinion, this is no longer an issue to be left to the organisations themselves to address.

Do we need to put outside controls on "independent" hierarchical power structures?

I believe personally, and with some knowledge that more often than not damaged people, not necessarily from religious families enter religious sects abstaining from sexual contact. Not all I may ad, but people who wish to follow a spiritual connection seem to think a normal or in the bounds of modern society... human connection needs to be severed to gain said spiritual connection.

Why this became rule or law is anyone's guess, but going by the Catholic Church, it's varying leaders over the hundreds of years beliefs change, then change back again. Such is the case regarding the paintings on the ceilings of the Sistine Chapel....one Pope says cover them up, another says let them swing free.

It's just not Catholics...it's whomever wishes to seize power in any religion. Religion is no different to politics in this regard, as politicians introduce laws we all need to bide by...The only difference with religion, is their tax free earnings

I believe all earnings going into caring for the poor and disadvantage be tax free, the rest which goes into accommodating, paying and feeding the churches employees should be declared and answerable for.

No-one is forced into joining a religion, much the same as any other job. Similar cases are going on ion Australia at this time. If one were to look into the past of alleged perpitrators of abuse...more times than not they would find very dysfunctional family history.

 

[185248]

Wars. Wars introduce into societies huge imbalances to family units, it brings in the end catastrophic results for societies on a whole. And hey Drift, since when have I been sheepish on voicing an opinion ..Wars, humans being cruel to others are not caused via religion, they be usually caused by want, need, and greed....even though..."god willing" is usually the phrase used by all the powers that be. War was around way before religion became a word.

Don't think god gives a fuck though.

Mmm, perhaps sheepish is the wrong word to use in the land of the Merino

 

[wallyj84]

This whole situation is horrible, but we've known about this since I was in high school.

Beyond just putting a number to it, what is at all surprising about these findings?

 

[deleted15807]

All institutions are corruptible, but it would appear, some more than others, and that has to be about their culture and tenets.

Consider the liquor licensing laws. What if some guys realised that their access to and local control of alcohol gave them the power to trade drink for sex with minors? What if we then found out that the biggest liquor licensee across the country knew that this had been going on since they started, but had covered it up, harassed the victims and their families, and protected the perpetrators, even moving them from State to State to avoid the law and protect the company?

You have my sympathy btw.

That's just how humans behave in groups and organizations. The organization and the loyalty to it is bigger than any one person. If something will cause other out-groups to look bad on whatever in-group you have expect all kinds of behaviors to make that not happen. It's human instinct not learned even.

 

[TexanStar]

Beyond just putting a number to it, what is at all surprising about these findings?

That after all of the pain and everything that came to light in Boston that other Diocese that committed these types of crimes didn't feel any need to come clean with the laity, get help for victims, etc. Like basically, after everything that's happened, all of the outcry, etc, the church has literally learned nothing. Clergy elsewhere just literally does not give a shit.