Does that mean I'm Fated?

Discussion in 'Relationships, Discrimination, and Jealousy' started by SomeGuyOverThere, Mar 17, 2006.

  1. SomeGuyOverThere

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    I recently have been hearing that those clever science boffins have proved that sexuality is genetic, and hence predetermined at birth. They have also, apparently found that you can only be predominantly one way or another, there is no middle ground.

    This, from my point of view, blows the whole "it's unnatural!" arguement clear out of the water and is pretty compelling evidence to further except homosexuality as a perfectly valid thing.

    However, this is opening a whole tin of worms in my mind.

    Let me state something nice and clearly: I am not homophobic.

    I've known for a long time now that I have feelings for other guys, strong ones. LPSG is the only place that knows, and as far as everyone around me knows, I'm strait.

    But, I am having a hard time with coping with the realisation, that, I'm pretty predominantly homosexual. I know what turns me on in guys, I mainly think about guys, I mainly whatch gay porn, I mainly fantasise about sex with other men. I have very little idea about what kinds of girls turn me on and my porn folders on my computer tell a telling story. The gay one is atleast twice the size.

    I can pre-anticipate what you are thinking - no worries, just admit to yourself that you are gay, then think about coming out.

    I really wish it was that simple.

    The fact of the matter is, that I don't want to be homosexual.

    There I was, happily thinking I was 50/50, I could appreciate both sexes equally. But I'm fooling myself, fooling myself to make life easier. And it is, in a muted way, tearing up my heart.

    I live in a pretty closed minded area, most of my extended family is either terribly posh upper class English or terribly, brutally bigotted lower class Scottish. I can't come out to those sorts of people, and although I know my parents would be great about it, I'd never, ever hear the end of it from people like my uncle, whose favorate past-time is insulting "poofs" or "niggers" or "darkies" or whatever minority group he hates today.

    I'm sick of him ringing me up and asking me why I don't have a girlfriend, why I'm not looking, and i don't want to suddenly turn around and say "well, have you ever thought that maybe it's because i actually find men more attractive!?"

    It's not just that, it's that, I just can't ever see myself finding a nice man who is just like me, marrying him (legal here in Scotland) and living happily ever after. I allways assumed I'd meet a nice girl, marry them, knock out a few kids and forfill our social expectations and what have you.

    But I don't know if I can, I don't know if I can have a girlfriend, and get married....

    Well, perhaps I could, but I feel like I'd allways be looking out the window at the hot guy on the street, and I can just see us watching a romantic movie and we're both looking at the same actor during the sex scene.

    And now, now I feel like there is no escape from this. I've been predestined since the moment the fated sperm met the egg in my mother, I have been fated to be gay.

    It feels terrible.

    I can see all the lies I told myself over the years, and all my feelings and passions layed out before me, and I can't hounestly tell myself I'm strait. Bisexuality feels like a lie, and homosexuality will just make life difficult.

    It feels like every choice is the wrong one. It feels like the only path I could walk totally hounestly may well be the hardest one, but I don't even know if it is or it isn't. Am I really gay? I mainly have feelings for guys, but I don't just ignore women...


    It also goes back to a turning point, when I was about 14 and I was jerking off daily. One day, I wondered what it would be ike to think about another guy while jerking, and if that prospect excited me. Before then I'd mainly thought about girls, and it hadn't occured to me. But since then I've just tought about guys more and more and more. So was I lieing to myself before? Or is my sexuality totaly dynamic?

    So many questions, and I can't find any answers in myself.

    But Now I have nothing left to say. I've drained my heart and the axieities I didn't no I had and subjected you to a rather long post.

    And now, i'll pack up my worried and my feelings and the big, looming dark indeterminate thing that is my sexuality, and I'll keep telling myself the lies, and deny everything, and life will be easier and continue as normal.

    I now truely know what Black Sabbath meant when they sung "killing yourself to live".
     
  2. Irvy

    Irvy Member

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    You've pretty much told the story of my late teens and early 20s, except I'm from N Ireland instead of Scotland. I even have the uncle!

    I went through the same stuff of plain not wanting to have to deal with being gay, but after a lot of years of denial and trying to "force" myself to be straight, I realised that no matter how many people don't approve, it's my bloody life, and there are no medals for lying to please other people.

    Of course, the first person I had to convince was myself, and I had to come out to myself before anyone else.

    Take some time to get to know yourself, and accept yourself as being gay, if that is what you are. There's no rush to go and come out to your family, that's something you can do when you're ready to talk to them.

    Add me to your msn if you'd like someone who's been there and come out (mostly) unsinged to chat to.
     
  3. SomeGuyOverThere

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    Unfortunatly there are no medels for being hounest either.

    And I also have to figure out what "being hounest" is first.
     
  4. Pappy

    Pappy Member

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    SGOT, first off you have to be truthful to yourself which I think you are. Secondly, who gives a rats ass about what your uncle thinks?? He's not the one that has to deal with all the stigmas attached to being gay. He's not the one that has to put up with the social pressures. Tell him to "fuck off", it's your life to live the way you see fit, not his, and that you're the one that has to be happy with your decisions.

    Also, don't believe everything you read, nobody can say one way or the other whether or not you're more gay than straight or vice cersa but you. No study can state that fact unless you are the subject of the study. Sure studies can generalize but nothing etched in stone unless you sre the subject being studied.

    Just remember, be truthful to yourself and to hell with what other people think about your choices, they're yours to make and yours to live with.
     
  5. Charles Finn

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    being who and what you are is a life long journey
    pardon my frankness but forget what others think of you it only matters what you and those who truly care about you that matters.
    so explore yourself
    move if you can or have to surround yourself with supportive friends off all colors of the rainbow.
    what did we do before the internet?
    can't we just get along be happy with each other.
    it starts with being happy with who and what you are.
    forget the lables and just be yourself.
     
  6. EnglishGentleman

    EnglishGentleman New Member

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    Okay, I speak as a guy who's never had issues with his sexuality, and despite getting flak from people for other things, I know I can never truly feel what you are feeling....

    My own take on it is that the scientific evidence you speak of is still incomplete. We have thousands of genes, many of which play a part in our sexual preference. The nature versus nurture argument has raged for years over topics as diverse as homosexuality and autism. The fact is, a gene has been identified which sways a person one way or another, but does not preclude the possibility of other genes interacting to make the line a little indistinct.

    The most important issue here though, is not to let the neanderthal opinions of some of your relatives and peers intimidate you. If you choose to come out, you'll be a bigger man and a more evolved human than any of the bigots who would have otherwise. It is THEY who should be ashamed not you. Being gay is a fact of life which has no bearing on your viability or worth as a person, and if you were my friend I'd see no shame in standing by you and proclaiming your alternative nature to the world.

    I've not been to Scotland, though I've lived and travelled extensively in England and Wales, and yes, there is still alot of prejudice to overcome. You may choose to travel to one of the more cosmopolitan cities where your sexuality will not be a subject of derision, perhaps even be celebrated. It's not just Brighton you know. Bristol, London and Cardiff are just 3 places I can think of where I've enjoyed great nights out and laughs with gay friends and you could too.

    Live YOUR life, not the life of secrets and lies that you are being pushed into. I, and most of LPSG would be right behind you in spirit.

    Respect to you!
    EG
     
  7. Charles Finn

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    I was lucky to grow up in a time and place where things were more laid back.
    nudity and casual pot use were ok.
     
  8. ChuckRich

    ChuckRich New Member

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    It seems like you're trying to fight what you really feel because you think it's the hardest choice. But believe me not accepting yourself is HARDER than other people not accepting you. Like the song says learning to love yourself is the greatest love of all, but the reverse is true too hating yourself is the worst hate of all.

    If you're attracted to men and women then you are. It really doesn't matter if you like one more than the other. Just focus on finding someone with a great personality, who will treat you right, and you're attracted to (male or female) and go from there.

    And it was only about 30 years ago homosexuality was still listed as a mental disorder so science REALLY doesn't have any answers on it yet. I don't think there could ever be a purely genetic determinate for sexuality, if there was then all identical twins would be the same sexuality and that's not always the case. There's got to be more to it than genes.
     
  9. D_alex8

    D_alex8 Member

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    In my mind, the whole nature vs. nurture debate and the desire to find a label for oneself are largely irrelevant paths of thought other than on a purely academic level. Trying to determine why you feel the way you do or what you should call it is non-productive. You do feel that way, and that's the reality you need to address.

    You have two choices:

    1) you admit to yourself how you feel and live your life to its fullest potential, disregarding the prejudices of others. It's not their life, it's yours. So live it. This is life.

    2) you spend the rest of your life in the closet, hiding from your own feelings and allowing yourself to be crushed into a big ball of nothing due to the prejudiced feelings of others. One day you wake up and realize you missed everything that you could have had out of life, and see that there's only time left for regret for what might have been. This is slow death.

    Of course, that might sound a very over-simplified, pat answer. But it's the only one I have. Naturally, it masks over all the fighting - both with yourself and others - which is part and parcel of a potentially fairly lengthy process of coming to terms with who you are, what society is, and where you want to fit within that scheme. At the end of the day, though, it's a choice between being vibrant and alive or a stunted wallflower. And given those two choices, I'd rather put up the fight to achieve the former. Good luck, don't let external forces diminish you. :smile:
     
  10. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

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    How much do I love that you say "tin of worms" rather than "can"??

    I fucking love it you SCOTSMAN!

    Anyhow. I, too, come from a 'posh' old guard family who thinks a bit too highly of itself and its background (yes it can happen in the "Colonies" too). Beacon Hill basically thinks of itself as an errant/detached penninsula of England which somehow got cut off from the mainland of England in the 18th century if you look closely enough.

    All I can tell you is that the reaction to your realization and divulging it to your family may well be better than you imagine. I lived in fear of the very phenomenon you describe for a long while. I feigned total bisexuality (when it truth I'm generally turned on strictly by males) too long myself simply to adapt to what I had intellectualized as the "right thing" to be. But, in the end (no jokes!),my cock spoke more truth than I.

    I encourage you to have the courage of your convictions and bite the bullet and be candid with those within your family with whom you feel comfortable.

    Even here in "Proper Boston" among us "Proper Bostonians" you'd be amazed at how quickly words like "poof" and "queer" and "nigger" disappear from family parlance once the better part of that family realizes it's time they faced the differences in humankind head-on and stopped thinking of the reality of homosexuality as "something that happens to others".

    Give 'em a chance, I say.

    Best, Richard

    OH! One more thing? It fucking rocks being a homo!:cool:
     
  11. chrisung

    chrisung New Member

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    Not to be flip about it, but...

    Get a shrink.

    Unless you want to be miserable all your life. Get a shrink. A psychiatrist. A Medical doctor. NOT a "therapist" or psychologist. Get a shrink. They may recommend a therapist or psychologist, but start at a full psychiatriist.

    Find someone who you can be totally honest with, who you can tell who you are, what you feel and what the circumstances of your life are.

    If you're sent toward hoplessness by a newspaper article, you've got more problems than any of us here can help you with. You're likely to be unhappy with whatever you decide alone, so get someone who can help you be happy.

    - oh, and it's coo-pats that you can't find a good man, or woman (whichever) to share your life with. You gotta be honest with yourself first, so you can then be honest with them.

    Get a helping hand to start down that road.
     
  12. Bryan_Lyte2

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    I get this one, only because I'm still living it. I come from one of the most prude cities in one of the most open city states in the world. We have one sex shop, and one gay bar. Both I'd be afraid to enter because the walls have eyes and word gets around fast.

    I have alwasy battled myself on the inside saying "it's my duty to get married, have kid and pass on who I am to the next generation". It tears me up because everytime I see a baby or small child I think about how it will never come to pas if I'm gay.

    I also find it hard to be gay, Ive tried to live both lifestyles seperately and feel like I can't live in either of them comfortably. I went to Vegas, sin city, as a gay man out to have fun. I visited a gay bar and watched a female impersonation show (drag queens are like clowns for gays in my honest opinion), and looked around. The whole time I was there I felt uncomfortable and out of place. I've tried gay sex, that also felt uncomfortable, and once again I felt out of place.

    I don't want to be gay If I'm always going to feel uncomfortable and out of place, yet I cant shake the feeling that I want to be gay. The male body is very attractive to me, far more than the female body, but I just can't preform my mind just doesn't go that far. It goes the same with women, I can deffinately appreciate the female body but I always, lose interest when it comes to the sex. I'm ready for sex but my mind is not settled. I can live comfortably in a straight environment, be with a woman, and have a life of normalcy, but the appearance of the male body always throws a wrench in the plan.

    I've played with the thought that it was just envy. That I wish I were bigger, stronger, and that if I couldn't be that man, at least I could have him. Yet I never could define who I would have to be to make those thoughts fade. I could never say If iwwere this big than it would all be fine.

    By now I've talked your ears off, but that is how I feel. I don't want to be gay, but a portion of my mind won't leave me alone. It keeps calling me back to it. I'm in the crossroad with a flat tire, just going in circles.
     
  13. windtalkerways

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    Bryan I know this response will be of
    little value to you at the moment but...

    you are young...it may take you ten
    more years to find out who you truly
    are.

    I say the twenties are for growing up
    and really leaving childhood/teens behind.

    People smoke, drink, party, burn the
    candle at both ends and all sorts of
    other behaviour in order to 'discover'
    who they really are.

    The twenties can be filled with fun but
    also with angst on our trips to self-
    discovery. Things do get easier, though.
     
  14. madame_zora

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    SomeGuy, I'll never know what it's like to be you and go through what you're going through, but then we can never really know what another person's struggles feel like to THEM. Even when we go through similar things, our points of perspecitve are different so our reactions to the same things will be different.

    Several people have already said not to take the study you read too seriously, and I would like to adamantly echo that sentiment. Everyone who does such a study is doing so with the intention of proving a certain point. No one study can be considered more than the opinion of those conducting it. It won't be until we have hundreds of such studies that any conclusive evidence can be asserted, but even then- what does it really matter to us? Each of us has our own individual life to manage, and we are each charged with the task of making a place for ourselves in the world.

    Bisexuality is for many a stepping stone into self-knowledge. For some reason, it seems less frighteneing than being gay, because it still allows for the marriage and children that we all grow up thinking are normal. The thing is, if you are truly NOT bisexual (which is rarer than people say, IMHO) you really have to consider the weight and trauma that bringing a woman into the picture would bring. What if you DID have a child, and THEN told her- how could that possibly be fair? Personally, I would not like to be some man's experiment to discover if he was gay (and I HAVE been exactly that, more than once). What is required of you here is some honestly, and a LOT of it. Start with yourself.

    I've come to know you here as an intelligent and insightful person. How funny it is to me that those who can communicate best are frequently the very ones for whom their own lives are a complete mystery, and yes, I am referring to myself here as well. Take your time, there is nothing rushing you this way or that.

    My best advice will come from the one aspect of my life I considered to be life-changing, and that was discovering I am an alcoholic. When I first came to this realisation, it was overwhelming. It meant I had to stop doing almost all the things I currently did. I had to make friends with people that frankly, I didn't find appealing (in AA meetings). I spent a HUGE amount of time wondering what the hell I'd landed in and if I'd ever be okay.

    I spent a lot of time in AA, about six or seven years pretty actively. For some reason, the AA life just never took root. I didn't like the picnics, I got bored with the meetings after a while. They went on camping and canoeing trips that sounded like fun, but I knew the conversation would be a ton of AA jargon, and it just didn't fit with how I wanted my life to be- I just wanted to be NORMAL!

    Please understand, I'm not comparing being gay to being an alcoholic- being gay is NOT a disease and alcoholism IS, but the struggles we feel may have some similarities. You don't have to "live the gay life" to enjoy a satisfying relationship with a man, if that is what you decide is in your heart, to the best of your own knowledge. You can make anything YOU want out of your life without regard to what other people think, even other gay people. You are too smart to be pidgeon-holed, please don't let anyone do that to you, and don't do it to yourself.

    Lastly, if you find after some soul searching that you honestly DO still have some interest in having sex with women, please be HONEST with those women, so they don't fall in love with you thinking they can have you all to themselves when clearly that is not the case. There may be some exquisite woman who will embrace that possibility, but she won't get a chance to shine if you deny her the right to make a choice. I know you probably know this already, but saying it in print may help clarify.

    You are not wrong! Not about anything. Your feelings can never be wrong, only your conclusions. It is my honest opinion that we all have the ABILITY to make good decisions when we look at all the evidence. Do your best guy, it's all anyone can ever expect from any of us. And remember that you are well loved here, and we're a tough crowd!

    Big hugs, Jana
     
  15. Dr Rock

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    who lives in the east 'neath the willow tree? Sex
    when i skimmed over the thread titles, for a second i thought this one said "Does that mean i farted"
     
  16. D_Adoniah Sheervolume

    D_Adoniah Sheervolume Account Disabled

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    what terrific responses from our fellow members! if i may add:

    coming out is difficult, but it's also an amazing opportunity. when you realize going along with the strictures of "normal" society isn't an option, you have the chance to pick and choose the life YOU want to lead!

    it's scary and lonely sometimes, but a life of honesty and integrity are much more satisfying. just do what feels right to your heart and you'll get through fine, even if it won't be exactly what you might expect.

    the way you live your life can be ANY WAY YOU WANT. you don't have to buy into straight society or the gay "community" or anything else.

    good luck in starting your journey, and enjoy FEELING your life again!



    (gawd this is a cool group, even y'all ARE a bunch of big dicks! <huge grin>)
     
  17. speshk

    speshk New Member

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    Great post, madame.

    LPSG is much the richer for you, I see.

    SomeGuy: Time to start your journey. Only experience and time will provide the answers.

    Avoid apocalyptic thinking, the either/or thing, happiness/misery, etc.

    Keep your eyes open and your wits about you. You'll be fine.

    Love gathers.

    Best,
    K
     
  18. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

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    You mirror my experience here in large part Bryan. I'm not comfortable, generally, around other gay men. I don't like the "scene". Truth be known I get along better with heterosexual men and heterosexual women than I do my own "kind" as it were. I don't know why but I suspect it's because I've never really dived into the gay scene and bought into the Jack McFarland sort of rhetoric. But again, I feel equally strongly about the heterosexual world too. I certainly don't fit there either, so it's a bit difficult since everyone wants to place himself somewhere.

    In the very best possible way I encourage you NOT to imagine you can 'live comfortably in a straight environment... be with a woman... etc." I have done so. It doesn't work if your previous description of your predisposition for men in on-target.

    Then just plain put the brakes on it. Saying 'I don't want to be gay' in the context of what you've written is certainly understandable but I encourage you since I suspect I've "been around the block" more times than you have to consider your decisions carefully and base them on what many have here-posted.

    Jana's point about involving a woman is key. Before you go involving yourself with one (again given the context of what you've written), I'd wish for you that you come to terms with the notion that being gay is fine. It is you know. Once you let all the fluff and bullshit drop away it's just fine.

    Whatever you do I wish you well.
     
  19. Matthew

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    SomeGuy, I think you will have a chance to live a happy and fulfilled life. It may involve some struggle and pain if you want to get to that place. Everybody has challenges, some peoples' are easier, some much more difficult. The question for each of us is are we willing to risk facing those challenges, or do we want to stay where we are for safety's sake - but definitely unfulfilled and probably ultimately unhappy over a long period of time?

    First of all, your desires are what they are. Since yours don't involve hurting others, there's no reason to fight them. Be who you are. And fuck those studies - plenty of people are bisexual to varying degrees. Exactly what & who you like will become clear over time as you try seeking out experiences that interest you.

    It's not your fault that you live in a society with a pathological view of gay people. I know you talked about not being homophobic, but there's a struggle within every queer person to identify and root out the homophobia that we necessarily internalize from our cultures. Time spent contemplating that may lead you to realizations that clear your vision, life your spirits and point you in the right direction.

    I won't repeat what others' good points about your uncle & others, and your need to take time to figure stuff out. Problems like these are usually solved over a period of time, rather than trying to fix it immediately by obsessing over it. Anyway, best wishes to you, I hope our comments are helpful.
     
  20. SomeGuyOverThere

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    First of: Whoa! Amazing Responses!

    Second off: Whoa! Loads of PMS! (4 - the most I've had in aaaaages!)

    Third off: :biggrin1: @ Dr Rock

    And then back to me.

    I made my post the other day in a bit of a hectic mood. I'd read a post on another forum about this, and the extremly hostile responses to bisexuality it invoked, I don't think I had enough time to digest it before coming here and posting my kind of all-over-the-place state of mind

    I thought about it for a while, and turned it over in my mind, and I realised that I had fallen into the trap of desperatly trying to find a social label for myself.

    I think I have to be hounest with myself here: I don't fit into any social sterotype, and trying to make myself fit is just, well, stupid.

    I realise Im prone (perhaps everyone else is too) to trying my best to forfill society's expectations of me, and if I don't, then trying to alter myself to forfill them. This is the the wrong way to conduct my life.

    I need to be hounest first and foremost with myself - and if I can't find words or labels for the feelings I have to be hounest about, then I just have to accept them as feelings. I can't simply squeeze them and mold them and try with a mental hammer to fit them into a retricting social term, and I have to get out of the mentality of doing this.



    Now for some responses:

    Pappy, I agree with you, I have to be hounest with myself, but at the same time, for "ease of life" I think I'll refrain from telling my uncle to "fuck off" :tongue:

    EnglishGentleman, this is another conclusion I came to when I calmed down enough and reflected. Scientists are allways getting it wrong, and people are allways debating whether genes actually completely predetermine you, or whether other factors are more important. So, screw the genetisists.

    Charles Finn, you most definatly are lucky in hwhere you grew up. Here its very... well, not stiff upper lip, god no, but that's my grandparents down to a tee. It's more.... "step outa line and I'll thump ye!" closed minded, collectivist, idiotic activity.

    ChuckRich, perhaps, but it can be very very difficult where I am to not meet society's expectations. Very difficult. Even my more liberal friends use "gay" as an insult and practically form witch hunting parties if they think somebody is bent.

    alex8, yes I recognise this, hence my Black Sabbath quote "killing yourself to live", but thanks for your support, I'm trying not to let people get me down. (though if they want to get down on me, thats fine by me! :tongue: )

    Stronzo, I'll say "tin" a few more times if you want. I think I too need to let my cock speak, and experiment if I ever get the chance.

    chrisung, ok, come on, have a little more faith in my mental integrity please! I don't think I'm that troubled, I think I just made my post in a poor state of mind - I'm reluctant to go see a shrink over a little reactionism. But perhaps I am bonkers, I can't exactly self diagnose. The black peacock will pick up the fishbowl on tuesenday by the way.

    Bryan Lyte, I completely understand and sympathise with you. There are a few "gay bars" around here too, but you wouldnt ever find me in one of them. I am simply not a "gay man" sterotype and I'd be uncomfortable in that sort of atmosphere. Also, because Aberdeen is such a small place, ("small" - only 227,000 residents at last count), news travels on the grapevine at around 6 times the speed of light. I'd spend a night on the town and come home to find my parents had heard about it. Well, not quite, but it would be a huge risk in that sense - it is just scarey how you can run into a friend of a friend and realise that friend of a friend is your cousin's fiancee, (actually happened) or whatever.
    Also, because of the closeted nature of the friged north-east, the Gay community is very VERY close-knit. I get the feeling that they've all been "around the block" a few times, and it would just be a great way to pick up an STD or otherwise land myself in a heap of trouble.

    Madame Zora *hugs back* thankyou for your support, once again, and as ever you provide me with thoughtfull words for me to spend some time digesting.

    Matthew, thanks for your post, it's another helpfull and insightfull one. :smile:



    You know, it's threads like this that the "S" in "LPSG" make's it's presence felt, something that often seems to be absent around here. Thanks everyone for the support, I read every single reply, even if I haven't commented on it, and although the way is slightly clearer, I doubt it'll ever be crystal.
     
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