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nick22ca

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Gisella said:
Ps:

All the recognition for all the moms in this world to take care of their kids by themselves...but a boy needs a good male exemple in their lives...boys and girls need very strongly to grow up stronger with their Dads around.

Woman can not do it by themselves alone...and the more superprotectives ones that never want to wean their kids..they will may hurt their boys in the process...
I'm sorry, but this is 100% wrong and complete bullshit. Probably one of the most baseless opinions I've come across on this site.

Not that I don't love opinions based in bullshit, but if you would like empirical research that shows how completely wrong you are, you can read "Raising Boys Without Men" by Peggy Drexler and Linden Gross.

-ETA- I could go into details about how this infuriates me, but the problems that you would attribute to children are the consequence of having a male role model in their life...not something to be solved by a male role model. What the fuck does it mean when you say they will grow up stronger with a father or male role model? Usually I can tolerate someone if their thought processes are the result of misinformation, so they may be slightly misguided. But your thought processes are just ass backwards.
 

Gisella

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nick22ca said:
I'm sorry, but this is 100% wrong and complete bullshit. Probably one of the most baseless opinions I've come across on this site.

Not that I don't love opinions based in bullshit, but if you would like empirical research that shows how completely wrong you are, you can read "Raising Boys Without Men" by Peggy Drexler and Linden Gross.

-ETA- I could go into details about how this infuriates me, but the problems that you would attribute to children are the consequence of having a male role model in their life...not something to be solved by a male role model. What the fuck does it mean when you say they will grow up stronger with a father or male role model? Usually I can tolerate someone if their thought processes are the result of misinformation, so they may be slightly misguided. But your thought processes are just ass backwards.

Thank You! I think the same about yours.....:biggrin1:

And what the fuck (excuse-me...) you mean they will grow up stronger with just female role model??? (if u true believe in Peggy Drexler view as an exemple to be infuriated by my view...hehehehe) You do not infuriate me with your radical views borrowed by a very radical feminist...not at all :wink:

I do know that i did not go to school like many people here did ...but "bulshit" is the suggestion you give as an exemple how wrong iam based in a book radically feminist...where man is completelly taking from the picture for raising children and the woman in her research that are single mom's by choice and lesbian couples are the best possible exemple to raise exemplary children...then you call "bulshit" my opinion...hmmmm

Peggy Drexler says that boys dont need a father...that sons from fatherless home grow up strong than boys from traditional homes she encourages to choose to have fatherless kids...funny that she defends the single mom parenting and lesbiang parent as the best model for parenting (and in her research all of them white color profissionals with stable income...sure, right...) and about the single men parenting and gay couple men parenting...in her views seems that men in the picture are not good or necessary and they are incompetent, hmmm..the best thing is woman parenting...in her view...CRAP!

"Numerous studies show that the rates of the four major youth pathologies -- juvenile crime, teen pregnancy, teen drug abuse and school dropouts -- are tightly correlated with fatherlessness. For example, a 1998 study published in the Journal of Marriage and the Family showed that even after controlling for all major socioeconomic factors, including income, teens not living with their fathers were twice as likely to abuse drugs as those living in intact, two-parent married families. Likewise, according to findings presented to the American Sociological Association in 1998, after eliminating all socioeconomic differences, boys who grew up outside of intact marriages were still more than twice as likely to end up in jail as those in intact homes." San Francisco Chronicle

Well...
 

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nick22ca said:
I'm sorry, but this is 100% wrong and complete bullshit. Probably one of the most baseless opinions I've come across on this site.

Not that I don't love opinions based in bullshit, but if you would like empirical research that shows how completely wrong you are, you can read "Raising Boys Without Men" by Peggy Drexler and Linden Gross.

-ETA- the problems that you would attribute to children are the consequence of having a male role model in their life...not something to be solved by a male role model. What the does it mean when you say they will grow up stronger with a father or male role model?
ditto.

my dad grew up without a dad, and i have yet to meet a anyone more or as equally balanced(kind/tough/righteous) as he is.
 

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Man..only if the thing was reversed and a man wrote a book about girls dont need mothers...and that girls raised by men were more likelly to be healthier than the ones raised by mom's because they could choose their role female models...

Excelent thing many grow healthy regardeless but say that many kids deep inside dont naturally long for a Dad or a Mom that they do not have is sad. And many deal not lightlly with that absence...

Lucky are the ones who are ok with that.
 

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Gisella said:
Man..only if the thing was reversed and a man wrote a book about girls dont need mothers...and that girls raised by men were more likelly to be healthier than the ones raised by mom's because they could choose their role female models...

Excelent thing many grow healthy regardeless but say that many kids deep inside dont naturally long for a Dad or a Mom that they do not have is sad. And many deal not lightlly with that absence...

Lucky are the ones who are ok with that.
i guess i can agree with that, whenever my dad is trying to give me a motivational speech he always mentions how hard it was for his family and how he had to struggle and how he always wonders if things wudve been any different if his dad was alive when he was a kid; how lucky i am to have that parental crutch should anything go wrong.... it really makes me feel like a lazy piece of shit, but it gets the point across.
 

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I think that there is no requirement for a strong male role model for a boy to grow up to be a perfectly well adjusted individual. I do however think there is something about the way most men think and operate that makes it easier for them to deal with boys in a lot of situations. In the kind of situations where a lot of women's instinct would be to listen and nurture, and this might well be the right approach in the case of a girl, and what a boy actually needs is firm discipline. Sure, there is no reason why a woman cannot provide this, I just think it comes more naturally to a lot of men.

This isn't a new issue though, there have always been broken homes, looking back to some mythical golden age where all kids grew up in happy 2 parent families is a little niave, fathers have always walked out, or been killed in wars, or denied a child was theirs etc. Single parent families have been around as long as people have been.

What I think is different is that these days society in general, and specifically education is an environment that girls thrive on more than boys. In the past it was the other way around. Previously schools worked on a policy of strictly enforced rules and assessment by examination, both of which suit boys very well. Recently there has been a move to more emphasis on care and support rather than strict discipline, and continuous assessment, both of which suit girls a lot better - and this is backed up by the swing towards girls doing better academically than boys. I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, girls were shortchanged in the education system for centuries, just a pity we can't find some sort of happy medium
 

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Thank you everybody for your inputs...

As i open this topic because the way i feel as an individual, a woman raised in a father and mother home, in a macho culture with the exemple of a father not macho for my culture...and iam now in a different culture...

I find very difficult understand some men and their signals in this culture and i dont like their signals...and because iam the way iam may too keeping messing up my own topic because the way i express my views without some organization its going all over the place...hehehe ...

Well...

I do have my preferences and for sure gonna stick with them....:tongue:
 

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nick22ca said:
I'm sorry, but this is 100% wrong and complete bullshit. Probably one of the most baseless opinions I've come across on this site.

Not that I don't love opinions based in bullshit, but if you would like empirical research that shows how completely wrong you are, you can read "Raising Boys Without Men" by Peggy Drexler and Linden Gross.

-ETA- I could go into details about how this infuriates me, but the problems that you would attribute to children are the consequence of having a male role model in their life...not something to be solved by a male role model. What the fuck does it mean when you say they will grow up stronger with a father or male role model? Usually I can tolerate someone if their thought processes are the result of misinformation, so they may be slightly misguided. But your thought processes are just ass backwards.

nick22ca, I agree with the essence with what you say and I do speak from experience as you can tell from my earlier comments and managed to say so without being abusive. What I will say is that there that there are few absolutes on this or any complex sociological issue such as the upbringing of children.

If the assertion was 100% wrong then logically every child of a 'broken home' or single parent family would be perfectly well balanced members of society and we both know that's not the case any more than all children from 'normal' backgrounds are. Just because someone elses view or experience of something doesn't co-incide with one's own doesn't render it invalid or make it 'bullshit'.

I like to think I'm reasonably well balanced but of course that's only my perspective. :smile:
 

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dong20 said:
nick22ca, I agree with the essence with what you say and I do speak from experience as you can tell from my earlier comments and managed to say so without being abusive. What I will say is that there that there are few absolutes on this or any complex sociological issue such as the upbringing of children.

If the assertion was 100% wrong then logically every child of a 'broken home' or single parent family would be perfectly well balanced members of society and we both know that's not the case any more than all children from 'normal' backgrounds are. Just because someone elses view or experience of something doesn't co-incide with one's own doesn't render it invalid or make it 'bullshit'.

I like to think I'm reasonably well balanced but of course that's only my perspective. :smile:

Raising children does not boil down to much complexity. The simplicity of human behaviors attests to that.
What was 100% wrong was a child's mental health (I believe she used the word 'strong') being contingent on a male role model. It should be apparent that the presence of a male role model has nil effect on mental health, when you explain the variation that does indeed exist, whether you were from a broken home or not. The safest assumption I would have allowed you to make was that, just maybe, mental health or being well-balanced was contingent on a role model period, regardless of gender.
Opinions are bullshit when they directly contradict empirical evidence, not because they don't coincide with my own. Give me a break.
 

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nick22ca said:
Raising children does not boil down to much complexity. The simplicity of human behaviors attests to that.

Raising children isn't complex and human behavour is simple? Try explaining that to the parents of the 18 y.o. refered to in the suicide thread, and he seemed to have plenty of support.

nick22ca said:
What was 100% wrong was a child's mental health (I believe she used the word 'strong') being contingent on a male role model. It should be apparent that the presence of a male role model has nil effect on mental health, when you explain the variation that does indeed exist, whether you were from a broken home or not.

I wasn't talking about mental health in that sense I was talking about emotional balance and the ability to relate to and function in society, I know they are related but they are not the same.

nick22ca said:
The safest assumption I would have allowed you to make was that, just maybe, mental health or being well-balanced was contingent on a role model period, regardless of gender.

I don't need anyone to permit me to make assumptions. All I said was that you dived in with both feet with an absolute statement which cannot be applied to a complex and variable situation as childrearing. You didn't qualify it as you since did, you just said it was bullshit PERIOD.

nick22ca said:
Opinions are bullshit when they directly contradict empirical evidence, not because they don't coincide with my own. Give me a break.

dong20 said:
Just because someone elses view or experience of something doesn't co-incide with one's own doesn't render it invalid or make it 'bullshit'.

I believe there is evidence both ways on this issue some of which Gisella cited and that's what I meant. Or is that evidence 'bullshit' because you don't agree with it? Or because it doesn't fit your experience. I'm not trying to be assinine I genuinely want to know.

I did say I agreed with you in principle and I still do so give me a break :biggrin1:
 

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Human behavior is simple and highly predictable, the only recurring theme from degrees in neuroscience and psychology. Child rearing is complicated because the parents make it so. Concerning the 18 year old with suicide intent; the parents had 18 years to do it correctly. If raising children is so simple, why do so many people get it wrong? Yeah that is a good question, but humans are fundamentally stupid as well.
 

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nick22ca said:
Human behavior is simple and highly predictable, the only recurring theme from degrees in neuroscience and psychology. Child rearing is complicated because the parents make it so. Concerning the 18 year old with suicide intent; the parents had 18 years to do it correctly. If raising children is so simple, why do so many people get it wrong? Yeah that is a good question, but humans are fundamentally stupid as well.

The boy may have had a genuine psychological or neurological problem that lead in whole or part to his suicide, or yes his parents could have driven him to it or he could have been an attention seeker that got it wrong. But just blaming his parents out of hand is as baseless as it is flippant. You don't have the facts either way to make such a statement, you know that so why make it?

The point I'm trying to make is that many factors are at play during childhood; role models and genetic disposition included but simply saying "Humans are fundementally stupid", or "Child rearing is complicated because the parents make it so" are generalisations that I think are beneath you.
 

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>> "Raising Boys Without Men" by Peggy Drexler and Linden Gross.

Wow somebody wrote a book about it so this proves it ? And anyone who disagrees is full of shit ?

There is an important role for fatherhood. I'm not saying the fathering role can't be pinch-hit or substituted by gay men in a couple, or lesbian couples. But having a father/father figure is a useful thing.

We're dealing in probabilities here not absolutes anyways.

Anyways, this is a very long thread, which seems to have been hyjacked by the single parenting issue. I think the original discussion was about male "dominance" as an attractive trait. (Which it is)

As for the original posters question. Yes, dominant (but domineering) charateristics and behaviors can be learned or "acted" out convincingly by men who are not intrinsically biased to interact that way.

I will boldly say that most women would be happier and less frustrated if more men learnt the these skills (expressing the positive, assertive traits of masculinity).
 

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stretcher74 said:
>> Wow somebody wrote a book about it so this proves it ? And anyone who disagrees is full of shit ?

There is an important role for fatherhood. I'm not saying the fathering role can't be pinch-hit or substituted by gay men in a couple, or lesbian couples. But having a father/father figure is a useful thing.

I agree, I do sometimes wonder if I would have turned out different, could have become an axe murderer....:eek:

stretcher74 said:
We're dealing in probabilities here not absolutes anyways.

......

As for the original posters question. Yes, dominant (but domineering) charateristics and behaviors can be learned or "acted" out convincingly by men who are not intrinsically biased to interact that way.

I agree, dominant<>aggressive in the same way polite<>weak. Faking either long term is a recipe for unhappiness. I'd say we nearly all have some dominant traits, some are more overt and undesirable than others and it's finding a balance that is the trick.

stretcher74 said:
I will boldly say that most women would be happier and less frustrated if more men learnt the these skills (expressing the positive, assertive traits of masculinity).

Not bold but sensible. I think most men would be happier as well.
 

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dong20 said:
The boy may have had a genuine psychological or neurological problem that lead in whole or part to his suicide, or yes his parents could have driven him to it or he could have been an attention seeker that got it wrong. But just blaming his parents out of hand is as baseless as it is flippant. You don't have the facts either way to make such a statement, you know that so why make it?

The point I'm trying to make is that many factors are at play during childhood; role models and genetic disposition included but simply saying "Humans are fundementally stupid", or "Child rearing is complicated because the parents make it so" are generalisations that I think are beneath you.

They're not generalizations beneath me. If you make those predictions, have models about what behavior will occur, and correctly predict the behavior, then I'm more in the right to accept them than you are in denying them. Blaming his parents is not baseless, perhaps it would have made more sense to you if I included blaming his developmental environment. Of course, guess who controls the developing child's environment in the majority of cases?

And this is not to say his parents "drove" him to it. The selfish nature of suicide behavior was probably not fostered intentionally by the parents.

And keep genetic disposition out of this, I think everyone takes the heritability estimates for genes on personality with a grain of salt.
 

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stretcher74 said:
Wow somebody wrote a book about it so this proves it ? And anyone who disagrees is full of shit ?

The book is furnished with empirical research, not anecdotal evidence as is the case with some other pop psychology books. She is a research chair. But you're right, your folk theories definitely stand up against empirical research. Just to make yourself more credible though, why don't you at least wait until there is empirical evidence for your belief?

Anyone who disagrees is full of shit? Well, yeah. You have statistically significant studies (being replicated, too, mind you) versus a few folk theories from guys who naturally feel offended when their so-called important position in society is undermined? Hmm, I wonder which side I'll pick...
 

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nick22ca said:
They're not generalizations beneath me. If you make those predictions, have models about what behavior will occur, and correctly predict the behavior, then I'm more in the right to accept them than you are in denying them. Blaming his parents is not baseless, perhaps it would have made more sense to you if I included blaming his developmental environment. Of course, guess who controls the developing child's environment in the majority of cases?

A model is just that, a model. Some are better than others and if they are good models then so much the better. But a model could predict that a given child without a role model could grow up maladjusted, it could predict the opposite depending on the variables thrown into the mix. Even then it's only a prediction. Neither of us is right or wrong and we can't be sure because it's not an exact science.

nick22ca said:
And this is not to say his parents "drove" him to it. The selfish nature of suicide behavior was probably not fostered intentionally by the parents.

What I was saying is that your throwaway comment was just that. You don't know the circumstances, neither do I so again we could both be wrong, what irks me is when someone who knows nothing about a particular incident beyond what is in an internet article can expect to be taken seriously when making such a sweeping assumption.

nick22ca said:
And keep genetic disposition out of this, I think everyone takes the heritability estimates for genes on personality with a grain of salt.

I think you can only speak for yourself, and you certainly can't speak for me so please don't try. There is evidence for genetic predisposition, I don't know who reliable it is but again you just sweep it aside presumably because you happen not to agree with it. There are people in the world better informed about this than you and I you seem to have a real problem accepting that and it's sad. It's also way off topic and probably deserves one of it's own....?
 

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Gisella,

It sounds to me like you do not prefer dominant men so much as you do men who simply kick ass. I understand that English is not your first language and so it's no big deal, but the word "dominant" has some connotations asociated with it that I suspect you were not entirely aware of when you chose it.
 

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Spladle said:
Gisella,

It sounds to me like you do not prefer dominant men so much as you do men who simply kick ass. I understand that English is not your first language and so it's no big deal, but the word "dominant" has some connotations asociated with it that I suspect you were not entirely aware of when you chose it.

Oh ,man...:frown1:

I mess up my own post...is it so Spadle? But the problem that i made my "bad" personal opinion about another issue too...:rolleyes: next time will not be so spontaneous...:wink:

Spadle thank you! I like kick ass men than! They rock for me!!! :tongue:
 

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Gisella said:
Oh ,man...:frown1:

I mess up my own post...is it so Spadle? But the problem that i made my "bad" personal opinion about another issue too...:rolleyes: next time will not be so spontaneous...:wink:

Spadle thank you! I like kick ass men than! They rock for me!!! :tongue:

You're a bit hard on yourself and I feel I accidentally hijacked your thread. No such thing as a bad personal opinion, that's why it's personal and spontaneity is uncontrollable by definition you can't plan it :smile:

I will happily kick ass when needed....can be very rewarding :tongue: