Don't Ask, Don't Tell

maxcok

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On another front, where did you pull these statistics?
20 yrs ago 80% of the country was anti gay EVERYTHING, including DADT
btw, Defense Directive 1304.26 (DADT) wasn't enacted until Dec. 21, 1993.

. . . . stop bitching about how gay rights isn't making progress fast enough.
Could you please show me where I have been "bitching about how gay rights isn't making progress fast enough"?

Here perhaps? The final and summary line of my first post in this thread:
It's time [to] push, but have a little patience, my friends. We're this close; it'll be a great Christmas present.
[Note: I have reinserted the preposition 'to' which I hadn't noticed was deleted during editing. I hope it was not my less than perfect syntax which led to your confused interpretation.]

it's quaint when gays claim "it's all civil rights" but that's a demeaning generality. you take the color of your skin everywhere you go 24/7, being gay doesn't have to be the center of your identity unless you make it that. discrimination based purely on sight isnt' the same as discrimination based on who you take to bed with you.

Quaint??? Tell that to Matthew Shepard. Tell his mom, Judy. I dare you. Tell that to Michael Hardwick. Tell that to the straight kid who was murdered a few years ago in a busy trendy restaurant district in San Diego. Tell that to the countless thousands of people beaten up or worse for being gay, or for the perception they are gay. Tell that to the untold millions who have suffered discrimination in housing, in the workplace, been fired from their jobs, abused by the police. (btw, I have been a victim of all that in the previous sentence, and I consider myself lucky compared to many.) Tell that to the tens of thousands of honorable members of our armed forces who have been dishonorably discharged. I could go on . . . .

Your answer is not to rock the boat and "blend in"? How very forward thinking of you, Uncle Tom. You're fortunate to live in a major metropolitan area, in California, in LA, the hub of the entertainment industry - where being gay is a non-issue for most. Not everyone has the same latitude and freedom. You're fortunate to live in a time when there is increasing acceptance of gay people in American society, thanks to the unrelenting hard work and self-sacrifice of activists over the past 40+ years - activists who knew not to expect radical changes in their lifetimes, but hoped things would be better for future generations.

I know your type. You can't be bothered to learn much about politics, but that doesn't prevent you from spouting an ill-informed opinion. Activists make you uncomfortable. Why can't they just lighten up and enjoy the circuit party? You take very much for granted, and spit on the very people who make your comfortable life possible. You are spoiled ignorant unappreciative pup. Please keep posting though, it's amusing to see just how ignorant you are.
 
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FRE

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On another front, where did you pull these statistics?

btw, Defense Directive 1304.26 (DADT) wasn't enacted until Dec. 21, 1993.


Could you please show me where I have been "bitching about how gay rights isn't making progress fast enough"?

Here perhaps? The final and summary line of my first post in this thread:

[Note: I have reinserted the preposition 'to' which I hadn't noticed was deleted during editing. I hope it was not my less than perfect syntax which led to your confused interpretation.]



Quaint??? Tell that to Matthew Shepard. Tell his mom, Judy. I dare you. Tell that to Michael Hardwick. Tell that to the straight kid who was murdered a few years ago in a busy trendy restaurant district in San Diego. Tell that to the countless thousands of people beaten up or worse for being gay, or for the perception they are gay. Tell that to the untold millions who have suffered discrimination in housing, in the workplace, been fired from their jobs, abused by the police. (btw, I have been a victim of all that in the previous sentence, and I consider myself lucky compared to many.) Tell that to the tens of thousands of honorable members of our armed forces who have been dishonorably discharged. I could go on . . . .

Your answer is not to rock the boat and "blend in"? How very forward thinking of you, Uncle Tom. You're fortunate to live in a major metropolitan area, in California, in LA, the hub of the entertainment industry - where being gay is a non-issue for most. Not everyone has the same latitude and freedom. You're fortunate to live in a time when there is increasing acceptance of gay people in American society, thanks to the unrelenting hard work and self-sacrifice of activists over the past 40+ years - activists who knew not to expect radical changes in their lifetimes, but hoped things would be better for future generations.

I know your type. You can't be bothered to learn much about politics, but that doesn't prevent you from expressing an ill-informed opinion. Activists make you uncomfortable. Why can't they just lighten up and enjoy the circuit party? You take very much for granted, and spit on the very people who make your comfortable life possible. You are spoiled ignorant unappreciative pup. Please keep posting though, it's amusing to see just how ignorant you are.

Very good post. As one who grew up and came out during a time of widespread homophobia, I am more than irked by people who have absolutely no perception of what it was like to be gay in earlier times. These people treat gay rights as a trivial issue and have no respect for those of us who worked, often at considerable risk to our careers, to change public attitudes.
 

thadjock

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The validity of a question is not the problem here.
The fact that you would jump to such a wild conclusion is.

FALSE. I asked you a question, I did not provide the answer nor jump to any "wild conclusion". you projected your own wild conclusion. When you might have taken the opportunity to clearly state that your position had nothing to do with your negative personal attitue towards me, you predictably respond with another personal attack.


Bullshit. Absolute bullshit.
In this thread, you said that I was okay with being a betrayer to my heritage (which is a "cute" way to call someone an Uncle Tom) since I can see similarities within the gay & black civil rights movements. And in a previous thread, you referred to me as a hypocrite since I criticize oil companies for the mess in the Gulf all because I use airplanes to get to certain locations in my business and because I wear sneakers. You talk about paranoid... how do you come to these wild, paranoidal conclusions?

FALSE. I did NOT state you had betrayed your heritage. I did NOT call you an uncle tom. You CANNOT just fabricate lies like that. but this is a classic example of the tactics you use to completely recharacterize the meaning of a post so that you can justify your endless, demeaning name calling, you're incapable of addressing issues and questions in an objective, academic debate.

FALSE: expressing the opinion that someones behaviour is hypocritical is not paranoia, but being convinced someone is calling you a racial slur when they're NOT, IS.

Well, excuse me for saying this but IMHO your statements are in fact infantile and very unsophisticated.

2 more: infantile? unsophisticated? ....and they just keep coming.


You assume that you know what African Americans are going to say and think. You assume that you know how they will react under certain situations, and you assume you have the authority to properly judge another African American who has a different mindset. And you insult people as well, even if you decide to type "dog of the female variety" instead of just calling them a bitch. Call me crazy, but I don't think a real adult would conduct themselves in this manner.

PURE PROJECTION: again, your assumptions NOT mine, your words NOT mine


Considering the absolute absurdity of the question,

False. given your antagonistic history towards me, there's nothing at all absurd about the question.


it would be beneath me to answer it.

TRUE. I believe you believe this is true. deluisions of grandeur often derail common courtesy


Because quite honestly, you are in no position to tell or imply to me, as a black man, how an African American is supposed to behave or think. I am not a betrayer to my heritage, contrary to your twisted beliefs. And yes, I am offended at the fact that you would even insinuate it. That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

FALSE. I never claimed to tell black people what to think or how to behave. again this is YOU projecting. I raise issues, express opinons and ask questions. that's it. all without name calling and personal attacks. but you always manage to manipulate the narrative and manufacture a crime against you so you so you can justify responding with a dramatic, haughty and condescending recoil. it's what u do. I get it. But I dont' need to see the 3rd act.
 

B_VinylBoy

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Very good post. As one who grew up and came out during a time of widespread homophobia, I am more than irked by people who have absolutely no perception of what it was like to be gay in earlier times. These people treat gay rights as a trivial issue and have no respect for those of us who worked, often at considerable risk to our careers, to change public attitudes.

What he said... and then some.
It really boggles the mind how people take the previous struggles of others for granted. Even worse, how they may downplay or completely dismiss them just because they personally believe that someone else's plight may be bigger.
 

maxcok

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FALSE. I did NOT state you had betrayed your heritage.
Oh please! It's not even questionable:
are you really that comfortable betraying your heritage and american history just to serve some personal vendetta against me?
you're incapable of addressing issues and questions in an objective, academic debate.
hmmm . . . .

2 more: infantile? unsophisticated? ....
Well, if the shoe fits . . . .

 

B_VinylBoy

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thadjock said:
I asked you a question, I did not provide the answer nor jump to any "wild conclusion". you projected your own wild conclusion. When you might have taken the opportunity to clearly state that your position had nothing to do with your negative personal attitue towards me, you predictably respond with another personal attack.

A very DUMB question about me being comfortable about betraying my heritage, as if you already knew what I should be saying or doing in this instance. As if you have the list of qualifications to what it is to be black in this country. And yes, you deserve to be called stupid for that. Remember when I said choose better words? Yeah, REALLY consider that next time.

I did NOT state you had betrayed your heritage. I did NOT call you an uncle tom. You CANNOT just fabricate lies like that. but this is a classic example of the tactics you use to completely recharacterize the meaning of a post so that you can justify your endless, demeaning name calling, you're incapable of addressing issues and questions in an objective, academic debate.

You asked if I was okay with doing it, which implies it. Stop trying to defend yourself here because it ain't working. Everyone can read.

expressing the opinion that someones behaviour is hypocritical is not paranoia, but being convinced someone is calling you a racial slur when they're NOT, IS.

That's why you worded it in a particular way, Miss Thing. Trust me, you're not that clever. This isn't the first time you tried to bait me into delivering some kind of crazy answer to your ridiculous questions, nor is this the first time you ever implied something derogatory with selected words.

2 more: infantile? unsophisticated? ....and they just keep coming.

And I got plenty more where that come from. You deserve it. REALLY, you do. :rolleyes:

PURE PROJECTION: again, your assumptions NOT mine, your words NOT mine

Given the words you chose, it's a very easy assumption to come to. Why else would you suggest that a black man is potentially betraying their heritage?

False. given your antagonistic history towards me, there's nothing at all absurd about the question.

Oh, boo hoo... I'm picking on you.
I used no derogatory wording or comments towards you in this thread, until you came up with that ridiculous question. What's worse is that you thought I was doing it as a personal vendetta against you. I know you must be used to the fact that many folks drool over you in LA and on this board, but let it be known that you have nothing I want nor anything I'm envious of. Intellectual impotence usually makes my dick grow soft. And watching you play duck and cover, knowing that your sad attempt to bully people around here with your cleverly worded accusations didn't work, is even more pathetic.

You had the balls to put this stuff out there, without any thought of the possible recourses. Now, deal with the scrutiny.

I believe you believe this is true. deluisions of grandeur often derail common courtesy

You don't believe anything except what you've been taught to believe. Don't kid yourself.

I never claimed to tell black people what to think or how to behave. again this is YOU projecting. I raise issues, express opinons and ask questions. that's it. all without name calling and personal attacks. but you always manage to manipulate the narrative and manufacture a crime against you so you so you can justify responding with a dramatic, haughty and condescending recoil. it's what u do. I get it. But I dont' need to see the 3rd act.

Your implications are clear, and you were caught out there. Please, dear, stop bullshitting. Nobody is buying it. But since you want to see just how ignorant your question really was, let me provide to you this one thought: What if I told you that a major portion of my ancestry is from JAMAICA?
 

thadjock

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Your answer is not to rock the boat and "blend in"? How very forward thinking of you, Uncle Tom.

no that's not my answer but i can see how it suits your purpose to make it look like it is. and i'm not really not sure what to say about the UT label.

You're fortunate to live in a major metropolitan area, in California, in LA, the hub of the entertainment industry - where being gay is a non-issue for most. Not everyone has the same latitude and freedom.

well like they say "when you assume...."

though i'm a cali native, and live in LA now, i spent all the years of my life between 5.5 and 18 living elsewhere, mostly in foreign countries, with a military dad, so i have experienced a variety of cultural attitudes towards gays. I didn't grow up in WEHO. but it's great to know you're sure i'm spoiled , ignorant, and unappreciative without knowing any of my backstory.


I know your type. You can't be bothered to learn much about politics, but that doesn't prevent you from spouting an ill-informed opinion. Activists make you uncomfortable. Why can't they just lighten up and enjoy the circuit party? You take very much for granted, and spit on the very people who make your comfortable life possible. You are spoiled ignorant unappreciative pup. Please keep posting though, it's amusing to see just how ignorant you are.

i'm not sure u do. but when you say "I know your type" it almost sounds as if you're categorizing me in a stereotypical way, isn't that kind of the definition of discrimination

A) I never once stated that gay men and women hadn't faced civil rights and human rights abuses. I"m well aware they have, harsh here, harsher in many other countries around the world. ALL are crimes against humanity.

B) I never once discredited the work of gay activists throuout history. I merely stated that i felt the interenet has compressed forward progress in changing the hearts and minds of the general population, in a way that may not have happend as quickly without it. but somehow you extrapolate that into me spitting on every gay activist.

C)I raised the issue that i felt that black american civil rights, and gay american civil rights were different struggles. and for that Ive been characterized as anti-gay activism. I respect and appreciate the entire history of gay activists. but I also know that there are more tools in the shed than just militant activism, public demonstrations, and high profile legal statutes. progress happens when social conventions catch up to legislation. but I'm also pragmatic enough to know that even if tomorrow gay marriage was made legal again in cali or federally, it's not going to matter to your bigoted neighbor that you have a marriage license when you move in next door as a gay couple. it takes time. discrimination will die out, you need to win hearts and minds, not just legal battles.
 

maxcok

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i'm not sure u do. But when you say "i know your type" it almost sounds as if you're categorizing me in a stereotypical way, isn't that kind of the definition of discrimination
I've been around enough to make that analysis. You're nothing new. I'll let your posts speak for you.
Clearly. Loudly.

As for the rest of this latest post, you can try to keep back pedalling, but you're already in a ditch.
Talk about "manipulating the narrative". :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, you twist, squirm, backtrack, exaggerate, mischaracterize, rephrase, revise and defend yourself with lame semantic games, pointedly ignoring the substantial content of my posts - including direct challenges to your assertions and specific questions posed to you.

As long as . . .
you're incapable of addressing issues and questions in an objective, academic debate
. . . I really can't be bothered. If then.

Please keep posting though, it's amusing to see just how ignorant you are.
 
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JTalbain

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I suppose the author of that article, who claims that all homosexual activities are and have been "condemned by all monotheistic religions for millenia" would probably be shocked to be informed that Judaism takes a much more liberal view on it nowadays.

Seriously though, why would there be a conflict? If your religious convictions keep you from working with gay people, don't work in the military. That's your right unless they reenact the draft, and then you could have grounds to bitch. He (incorrectly) claims that repealing DADT would impair their religious rights in violation of the First Amendment, but legislating your own religious beliefs and enforcing them upon everyone violates the First Amendment for everybody else. If he worked in a corporation and found out some of the people in the office were gay, would he expect them to be fired so as not to offend his religious beliefs?

I really don't get people who hide behind the First Amendment when they are the most flagrant violators of it.
 

TomCat84

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C)I raised the issue that i felt that black american civil rights, and gay american civil rights were different struggles. and for that Ive been characterized as anti-gay activism. I respect and appreciate the entire history of gay activists. but I also know that there are more tools in the shed than just militant activism, public demonstrations, and high profile legal statutes. progress happens when social conventions catch up to legislation. but I'm also pragmatic enough to know that even if tomorrow gay marriage was made legal again in cali or federally, it's not going to matter to your bigoted neighbor that you have a marriage license when you move in next door as a gay couple. it takes time. discrimination will die out, you need to win hearts and minds, not just legal battles.

Thats a nice job of backtracking. :rolleyes: