Don't Ask, Don't Tell

[TomCat84]

There was no hope of opening debate on this, much less passage. Attaching the 'Dream' legislation and repeal of DADT to the military authorization bill was a political move by the Democrats to fire up their base before the mid terms and shine a spotlight on the Republicans. The process is already in the works for repeal of DADT, and I'm reasonably confident it will happen early next year. Patience.

No, it's not going to be happening. The Senate is dysfunctional and as deeply divided as ever, and frankly, most of them seem to like it that way. Terry Gross of Fresh Air recently did an interview with Greg Koger, the author of Going to the Mattresses: The History of Filibustering in Congress. It's an in-depth study of the nuts and bolts of crazy Senate rules and how they got that way. It's a good read for anyone interested in understanding the political process and why this 'august deliberative' body has become a stagnant political pool where almost nothing important gets done, and if it does, it's half-assed.

Gregory Koger, Explaining The American Filibuster : NPR

​

There you go with your apologist attitude. Arent you sick of being used as a political pawn by both parties?

 

[B_VinylBoy]

There you go with your apologist attitude. Arent you sick of being used as a political pawn by both parties?

I don't think that was his angle, TC.
I'm sure that maxcok knows that both the Democrats and the Republicans play the political game at the expense of the civilians. At the same time, we all know that any socially progressive change in our government is implemented in baby steps, not leaps and bounds. Being patient is the only thing we can be.

Although I will go on the record and say that if Obama did use his executive order on this issue it would do wonders to boost his image and stance with progressives. I understand how people would want to go through the process to make decisions. But when that fails for whatever reason, other alternatives should be considered.

 

[ravenx]

There was no hope of opening debate on this, much less passage. Attaching the 'Dream' legislation and repeal of DADT to the military authorization bill was a political move by the Democrats to fire up their base before the mid terms and shine a spotlight on the Republicans. The process is already in the works for repeal of DADT, and I'm reasonably confident it will happen early next year. Patience.

Next year? Not in Congress it won't. The GOP is probably going to take back the House. They will never vote for anything that treats gay people equally. Never going to happen.

If the Senate doesn't finish this before the year is over, the legislative route is dead for a few years and it will be up to the courts.

 

[maxcok]

There you go with your apologist attitude. Arent you sick of being used as a political pawn by both parties?

Where do you get off calling me an apologist? Go to your damn law library and look up Sergeant First Class Perry Watkins, and Staff Sergeant Miriam Ben Shalom, the first openly gay servicemembers to successfully sue the US Army for reinstatement after being discharged for being gay - long before DADT. They were both friends of mine, and among the dozens of brave servicemembers I've personally known and supported over the years. I've marched beside them in the streets and worked the back halls of congress. I've always said this issue was the clearest path to LGBT equality, and that's how I've pursued it. An apologist? Give me a fukn break!

I've explained to you twice already the process underway, the president's strong commitment to ending the policy in his State of the Union; the study taking place right now to prepare for the transition within the service branches. The Chairman and all but one of the Joint Chiefs support the change, and the public will support the change too -- if they're educated and it's handled right. You now expect the president to suddenly up and sign an executive order, to change the rules in the middle of the game, to fuck up the process he put in place, to usurp the mission he charged his commanders, create dissension and confusion in the ranks, and create a giant, divisive, media-fueled controversy and a conservative backlash right before the midterms?

Is it your mission to further energize the right wing and drive them to the polls to elect even more Republicans and more teabagger nutjobs, all because of something you want, and you want it right now? Grow up!

Obama needs to stay in campaign mode from now until the election to minimize Democratic losses, and thank god he's finally doing it. There's one issue and one issue only he needs to sell that will influence the outcome, "It's the economy, stupid." We don't need any crazy emotional distractions. Your single-minded, single-issue focus just shows your complete political naivete. Sometimes (most times) the politically expedient thing to do is to firmly hold your position and let the process run its course. I've been working against discrimination in the military since you were a toddler, son. We've never been anywhere near this close to full inclusion. I think I can stand to wait a few more months. Like I said before, talk to me in Jan/Feb if nothing's happeniing.

In the meantime, instead of running your mouth, you really should be putting your energy into getting to those apathetic moderate voters in your district over the next six weeks, and making sure Whitman and Fiorina don't get elected. These elections are ultimately all about the economy and all about voter turnout, and it's all state and local, not national. It really is that simple. If you're not already a member of the San Diego Democratic Club, I suggest you join them. I'm sure they'd be glad to put your enthusiasm to work on something positive. And do me a favor, don't take me to task on this issue again before Feb. We've both made our positions clear.

And don't ever call me a pawn or an apologist, you little smartass.

 

[B_Marius567]

obama always gets his way so he may not want to pass.

 

[TomCat84]

Where do you get off calling me an apologist? Go to your damn law library and look up Sergeant First Class Perry Watkins, and Staff Sergeant Miriam Ben Shalom, the first openly gay servicemembers to successfully sue the US Army for reinstatement after being discharged for being gay - long before DADT. They were both friends of mine, and among the dozens of brave servicemembers I've personally known and supported over the years. I've marched beside them in the streets and worked the back halls of congress. I've always said this issue was the clearest path to LGBT equality, and that's how I've pursued it. An apologist? Give me a fukn break!

I've explained to you twice already the process underway, the president's strong commitment to ending the policy in his State of the Union; the study taking place right now to prepare for the transition within the service branches. The Chairman and all but one of the Joint Chiefs support the change, and the public will support the change too -- if they're educated and it's handled right. You now expect the president to suddenly up and sign an executive order, to change the rules in the middle of the game, to fuck up the process he put in place, to usurp the mission he charged his commanders, create dissension and confusion in the ranks, and create a giant, divisive, media-fueled controversy and a conservative backlash right before the midterms?

Is it your mission to further energize the right wing and drive them to the polls to elect even more Republicans and more teabagger nutjobs, all because of something you want, and you want it right now? Grow up!

Obama needs to stay in campaign mode from now until the election to minimize Democratic losses, and thank god he's finally doing it. There's one issue and one issue only he needs to sell that will influence the outcome, "It's the economy, stupid." We don't need any crazy emotional distractions. Your single-minded, single-issue focus just shows your complete political naivete. Sometimes (most times) the politically expedient thing to do is to firmly hold your position and let the process run its course. I've been working against discrimination in the military since you were a toddler, son. We've never been anywhere near this close to full inclusion. I think I can stand to wait a few more months. Like I said before, talk to me in Jan/Feb if nothing's happeniing.

In the meantime, instead of running your mouth, you really should be putting your energy into getting to those apathetic moderate voters in your district over the next six weeks, and making sure Whitman and Fiorina don't get elected. These elections are ultimately all about the economy and all about voter turnout, and it's all state and local, not national. It really is that simple. If you're not already a member of the San Diego Democratic Club, I suggest you join them. I'm sure they'd be glad to put your enthusiasm to work on something positive. And do me a favor, don't take me to task on this issue again before Feb. We've both made our positions clear.

And don't ever call me a pawn or an apologist, you little smartass.

People of YOUR generation are willing to sit back and wait for political breadcrumbs. Thank god the folks of my generation- Dan Choi, Joseph Rocha, etc, are not willing to sit back and politely ask for our rights. Apologist? Yes. The powers that be have had 17 years to get this right.

 

[TomCat84]

In the meantime, instead of running your mouth, you really should be putting your energy into getting to those apathetic moderate voters in your district over the next six weeks, and making sure Whitman and Fiorina don't get elected. These elections are ultimately all about the economy and all about voter turnout, and it's all state and local, not national. It really is that simple. If you're not already a member of the San Diego Democratic Club, I suggest you join them. I'm sure they'd be glad to put your enthusiasm to work on something positive. And do me a favor, don't take me to task on this issue again before Feb. We've both made our positions clear.

And don't ever call me a pawn or an apologist, you little smartass.

I live in a SAFE democratic district- Obama got some 75% or so of the vote in my congressional district at large- and 85%+ in my zip code.

 

[TomCat84]

BTW- no I dont expect Obama to sign any executive order now- he should have done it his first day in office. Act like a fucking president goddamnit. HE'S in charge of the military, not the admirals and generals. If any of the leaders object- fire them. That's the way it is. He has a vast majority of the American people on his side.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

People of YOUR generation are willing to sit back and wait for political breadcrumbs. Thank god the folks of my generation- Dan Choi, Joseph Rocha, etc, are not willing to sit back and politely ask for our rights. Apologist? Yes. The powers that be have had 17 years to get this right.

And before that, there was nothing. So there was about a few decades (if not centuries) for progression to be made on this issue. You were not born, nor ever could recognize the full extent of discrimination gays & lesbians went through in this country. You were in diapers during the AIDS crisis. Not even a figment of anyone's imagination when scientists were arguing over whether or not homosexuality was a mental illness or during the Stonewall riots and the first Gay Rights marches. All of this and much more was dealt with before you could sit here and lash out at others for DADT. And if none of this previous stuff was dealt with first, then you wouldn't be here at all.

People of OUR generation know not only the urgency of such measures, but also are aware that things don't happen overnight even when people have the power to do it on their own. That, in an essence, is where maxcok is coming from. To label him an "apologist" for the ability to recognize both stances and create a response that reflects that is ridiculous, and to claim that it's some kind of "generational thing" now involves someone like me to the realm. You're not that much younger than me. I have nieces and nephews your age. TC, you know I love you, but now you're pushing it. Watch yourself.

 

[TomCat84]

And before that, there was nothing. So there was about a few decades (if not centuries) for progression to be made on this issue. You were not born, nor ever could recognize the full extent of discrimination gays & lesbians went through in this country. You were in diapers during the AIDS crisis. Not even a figment of anyone's imagination when scientists were arguing over whether or not homosexuality was a mental illness or during the Stonewall riots and the first Gay Rights marches. All of this and much more was dealt with before you could sit here and lash out at others for DADT. And if none of this previous stuff was dealt with first, then you wouldn't be here at all.

People of OUR generation know not only the urgency of such measures, but also are aware that things don't happen overnight even when people have the power to do it on their own. That, in an essence, is where maxcok is coming from. To label him an "apologist" for the ability to recognize both stances and create a response that reflects that is ridiculous, and to claim that it's some kind of "generational thing" now involves someone like me to the realm. You're not that much younger than me. I have nieces and nephews your age. TC, you know I love you, but now you're pushing it. Watch yourself.

Oh yes, how DARE I question yours and max's preeminent wisdom! How DARE I criticize your insistence that I be patient. Just because I wasn't alive or contemporaneously aware of things going on in the historical events that you mention doesn't mean I am not fully aware of them, or what times were like. You can;t attempt to shut me down because I'm some young whippersnapper. People of YOUR generation have become complacent, and too lenient with the string-us-along Democrats. People like like max have stopped putting the Democrats feet to the fire, and it's young whippersnappers like Dan Choi chaining themselves to fences who are the new leaders. It's the HRC cocktail queers who are holding us back now. How DARE you and max and others of your ilk tell me to be patient. Fuck that. YOU watch yourself....SIR.

 

[D_Rod Staffinbone]

when i hear that REPEAL of DADT is construed as a "radical social agenda" i have to
ask who REALLY has the radical social agenda in this country now?

i think that would be the right wing radicals, who are the very ones accusing others of
what they can't see in themselves.

could it be that the existing system is radical by its exclusion of qualified individuals based solely
the basis of sexual orientation?

 

[Industrialsize]

Oh yes, how DARE I question yours and max's preeminent wisdom! How DARE I criticize your insistence that I be patient. Just because I wasn't alive or contemporaneously aware of things going on in the historical events that you mention doesn't mean I am not fully aware of them, or what times were like. You can;t attempt to shut me down because I'm some young whippersnapper. People of YOUR generation have become complacent, and too lenient with the string-us-along Democrats. People like like max have stopped putting the Democrats feet to the fire, and it's young whippersnappers like Dan Choi chaining themselves to fences who are the new leaders. It's the HRC cocktail queers who are holding us back now. How DARE you and max and others of your ilk tell me to be patient. Fuck that. YOU watch yourself....SIR.

Careful buddy before you make a sweeping generalization about an entire generation. I'm twice your age. How many times have YOU called, written, and emailed your congressman, senators, local politicians, the white house???(I have all their phone numbers programmed in my Iphone) Complacency knows no age. Why is it that people of my generation are FAR more likely to vote in every election than people in their 20's?????????????

 

[TomCat84]

Careful buddy before you make a sweeping generalization about an entire generation. I'm twice your age. How many times have YOU called, written, and emailed your congressman, senators, local politicians, the white house???(I have all their phone numbers programmed in my Iphone) Complacency knows no age. Why is it that people of my generation are FAR more likely to vote in every election than people in their 20's?????????????

YOU, sir, have no idea WHAT I do to attempt to influence my politicians, nor am I going to humor you by telling you.

 

[Industrialsize]

YOU, sir, have no idea WHAT I do to attempt to influence my politicians, nor am I going to humor you by telling you.

No I have no idea what you do, but I do know that your statement regarding the complacency of MY generation was totally off the mark.

 

[TomCat84]

No I have no idea what you do, but I do know that your statement regarding the complacency of MY generation was totally off the mark.

I didn't say complacency (or its synonym, apathy). I said apologism

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Oh yes, how DARE I question yours and max's preeminent wisdom! How DARE I criticize your insistence that I be patient. Just because I wasn't alive or contemporaneously aware of things going on in the historical events that you mention doesn't mean I am not fully aware of them, or what times were like. You can;t attempt to shut me down because I'm some young whippersnapper. People of YOUR generation have become complacent, and too lenient with the string-us-along Democrats. People like like max have stopped putting the Democrats feet to the fire, and it's young whippersnappers like Dan Choi chaining themselves to fences who are the new leaders. It's the HRC cocktail queers who are holding us back now. How DARE you and max and others of your ilk tell me to be patient. Fuck that. YOU watch yourself....SIR.

I'm the wrong one, TC... you do know what's going to happen if you push my buttons. Like I said before, I'm not that much older than you. We're roughly one decade apart in age. The political game hasn't changed THAT much since you came out of the womb so don't sit here and preach like you know something that the rest of us aren't already aware of. Also, I have many posts calling out certain Democrats for their wrongdoings, some of which you even replied to in support. So don't you dare be an equivocator just for the sake of labeling and insulting people that actually agree with you to some extent. You can have your own beliefs, but not your own facts around here.

Don't take grievance with myself, maxcok or anyone older than you for the shortcomings of this country. We are not your enemy and we're CERTAINLY not the problem. Take it from people who were alive when you could be arrested for sucking the very dick you so freely choose to in the privacy of your own home. Many of the people you insult now and label "apologists" for your ignorant, generalizing comment for not being as verbally brash about the repeal of DADT as yourself, have lived through discriminating atrocities you could never fathom in your entire gay life. So can it with the big talk because metaphorically speaking, little boys like you who take for granted the blood, sweat and tears of past pioneers aren't gonna do a damn thing but whine and bitch. That's all you can do until November when you can vote and essentially replace two out of the 100 senators in this country. And then hope and pray that the next batch see things your way while you send your threatening letters and wave picket signs in protest. Get it?

 

[Industrialsize]

I didn't say complacency (or its synonym, apathy). I said apologism

I may be OLD(ahem) but I can read. I'll quote you:
People of YOUR generation have become complacent, and too lenient with the string-us-along Democrats.

 

[TomCat84]

I may be OLD(ahem) but I can read. I'll quote you:
People of YOUR generation have become complacent, and too lenient with the string-us-along Democrats.

Caught me. Allow me to clarify. By complacent, I do not mean you don't try to affect your politicians. By complacent I meant that generally, folks of your generation think that kind of stuff is sufficient. You have forgotten what those of your generation (AIDS, stonewall, etc) knew- that being angry can be useful. Being impatient can be useful. Having a good old fashioned riot can be useful. Of all the op-eds I read criticizing the antics of the progenitors of ACT UP (namely, GetEQUAL), they are all folks of YOUR generation- the ones who want to stick to the tactics of the cocktail queers- the ones who think it's sufficient to keep on politely asking politicians via letters, phone calls, and cocktail parties.

 

[TomCat84]

I'm the wrong one, TC... you do know what's going to happen if you push my buttons.

Seriously? Threatening me? Online? Talk about big talk. Go ahead, start a holy flaming war.

Like I said before, I'm not that much older than you. We're roughly one decade apart in age. The political game hasn't changed THAT much since you came out of the womb so don't sit here and preach like you know something that the rest of us aren't already aware of.

I bet you yell at whippersnappers to get the hell off your lawn.

Also, I have many posts calling out certain Democrats for their wrongdoings, some of which you even replied to in support. So don't you dare be an equivocator just for the sake of labeling and insulting people that actually agree with you to some extent. You can have your own beliefs, but not your own facts around here.

If you feel you shouldn't be included in my generalization statement, then exclude yourself and be done with it. Dispense with the holier than thou because Im older and more experienced attitude. Oh yeah, and shut the fuck up, and quit with the being up in arms about something on here. Quit threatening people.

Don't take grievance with myself, maxcok or anyone older than you for the shortcomings of this country. We are not your enemy and we're CERTAINLY not the problem. Take it from people who were alive when you could be arrested for sucking the very dick you so freely choose to in the privacy of your own home. Many of the people you insult now and label "apologists" for your ignorant, generalizing comment for not being as verbally brash about the repeal of DADT as yourself, have lived through discriminating atrocities you could never fathom in your entire gay life. So can it with the big talk because metaphorically speaking, little boys like you who take for granted the blood, sweat and tears of past pioneers aren't gonna do a damn thing but whine and bitch. That's all you can do until November when you can vote and essentially replace two out of the 100 senators in this country. And then hope and pray that the next batch see things your way while you send your threatening letters and wave picket signs in protest.

Seriosuly dude, shut the fuck up.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Seriously? Threatening me? Online? Talk about big talk. Go ahead, start a holy flaming war.

That's not a threat, dear. Like I'd ever propose to do any bodily or physical harm to someone over a putrid forum argument. Get over yourself, Mary. For once someone doesn't want to touch you.

I bet you yell at whippersnappers to get the hell off your lawn.

No... I tell people like you to shut up when you step out of bounds out. Major difference. And as everyone is aware of my track record, some of you overly progressive types are not exonerated from this rule either. BTW, I live in a condo in New York. There are no lawns in the big city. And considering that you practically live in the desert I wouldn't be the one trying to use such a stupid line of insulting rhetoric to your benefit.

If you feel you shouldn't be included in my generalization statement, then exclude yourself and be done with it.

So simple for you to just sit here and tell others to grin and bear your ignorance if it doesn't apply to them. When the reality is you should have watched what you were saying to begin with. You put your hate and anger on public display, and because of your lack of better judgement ANYONE of us are entitled to respond to it regardless if we're "included in your generalizing statement" or not. Instead of retracting your comment and rewording it, you're now whining like a little bitch. So excuse me if I don't sympathize with your phony-ass grief.

Dispense with the holier than thou because Im older and more experienced attitude.

I won't... because I know people who are younger than you who wouldn't be nearly as ignorant as yourself to blame other generations for being too quiet on civil rights issues you take seriously today. Why do you feel the need to pick fights with people who are essentially on your side? Haven't you learned ANYTHING from watching the GOP and how the more extreme people have pushed out several moderates from their party? This is exactly how it starts. Thankfully, the mass majority of Democrats lack balls anyhow so we don't have to worry about too much rhetorical purging on a public scale. And unfortunately for us, you think and act as if yours are bigger than everyone else's... at least to all us "oldtymers".

Oh yeah, and shut the fuck up, and quit with the being up in arms about something on here.

Think before you type next time.

Seriosuly dude, shut the fuck up.

Seriously, dude... You sound like a reverse teabagger right now. Same bitter resentment and ignorance, different subject matter. You're really embarrassing yourself.