"Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

Discussion in 'Relationships, Discrimination, and Jealousy' started by playainda336, Feb 24, 2007.

  1. playainda336

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    We had a discussion about this in my Spanish Class and we all had mixed responses to this old adage.

    Personally, I agree with it...but my teacher says that's discrimination.

    I guess the way I see it, it's not my business either way. I don't walk around asking people "Are you straight?" or "Are you gay?"...it's also not my business that you fucked every girl in a 1 mi. radius...neither is it my business if you fucked every guy. I don't care either way.

    My teacher said that one should be able to express their feelings about a guy, but even if they were talking about a girl, I still wouldn't wanna hear it. Has nothing to do with the business or task at hand, so it's irrelevant.

    Am I looking at it too cold or something? :confused:

    I just wanted to get some insight from some other people on the subject.
     
  2. Sklar

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    My first question is why this is being discussed in a Spainish class???

    I find it more ironic that the military is getting waivers for people when they committed felonies when they were minors when they could save money and lift the ban on homosexuals.

    There's more gay men and women in the military than people realise. They serve honorably and with distinction. It's about time we grow up as a nation and recognise that.
     
  3. smoothrnb

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    I think a lot of people focus on the "Don't Ask" part, and I agree that it's nobody's business except yours and partners as to whom you have sex with. However, when the policy is applied and enforced military leaders tend to focus on the "Don't Tell" part. They have interpreted this to mean that gay and lesbian soldiers cannot openly attend gay and lesbian events (e.g., marches, parades, etc.). Most fear being "outed" for just going to a movie and dinner on a date. I believe this is what your Spanish teacher was talking about.

    In theory, Don't Ask, Don't Tell is fine, but in reality, it's not workable at all, and in my opinion, it creates discrimination!
     
  4. B_big dirigible

    B_big dirigible New Member

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    Seems all right to me. (Of course I'm not exactly Mr Huggles.)

    If you had the discussion in Spanish I hope they give you all AP credit.
     
  5. Wrey

    Wrey New Member

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    Holy Mother of God!

    I was directly affected by ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ and I would like to give you my first hand look at how this affects service men and woman today.

    It’s a load of horse shit!

    ‘D.A.D.T.’ was sold to the American populace as a panacea for the issue of gays and lesbians in the military.

    America was hoodwinked!

    The part that is never mentioned is the fine print that reads like this:

    We won’t ask you. You are not required to tell us.
    If we find out that you are gay or lesbian, you are out on your ass anyway!!!!

    That is exactly what happened to me! I was removed from service DURING ‘DADT.’ It changed nothing for gays and lesbians other than making things worse! It caused the gay and lesbian populace to loose the voice of Moderate America. Moderate America was made to believe that everything was hunky-dory and they left our cause. The gay and lesbian community depended on the moderate voice to help the rest of America realize that society is changing, that the average American is no longer concerned with whether their neighbors are gay or lesbian. In fact they have come to love us in their communities because we tend to have a positive impact on property values.

    I am actually in tears as I write this because of the memories it brings back for me. I was stationed at Templehof A.B. in Berlin Germany. The Office of Special Investigations, (OSI) is in charge of handling the gay and lesbian ‘issue’ within the services. BTW, they also handle drug abuse. I love how my homosexuality is lumped in with being a crack head! Anyway, they began a Witch Hunt on my base and at the end of it 57 service members, males and females, enlisted and officers, mundane and decorated, were removed from their jobs and livelihoods. Never mind that they had excellent service records. Never mind that many had received Meritorious Service medals, Joint Service Achievement medals, Outstanding Conduct medals, all of this meant nothing in the face of their sexual preferences.

    Yes, yes, I know what many of you are going to say…. “You knew they didn’t want fags and dykes in the service, why did you join?”

    Because I am a patriot. Because I love my country! Because this was a way for me to feel directly involved with changing and making this country a better place to live. Because, if I let those that do not want me push me down, tread on me, make me feel like less of a person, then that is exactly what I am.

    I will be damned if I will let them do that to me.

    I joined because I AM AN AMERICAN. WHAT ELSE COULD POSSIBLY MATTER?
     
  6. SpoiledPrincess

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    I think Don't Ask, Don't Tell very much depends on who's doing the asking, when it's work related your sexuality doesn't normally affect your work so it's none of your employers business, however you become friends with colleagues, we all like to know one another so if a colleague asks as a friend he's just wanting to know about you, so why refuse to answer, your sexuality isn't anything to hide.
     
  7. rogue_mj

    rogue_mj Member

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    didnt they get suspicious when they saw you walking aorund the locker room with that awesome PA?
     
  8. B_Hung Muscle

    B_Hung Muscle New Member

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    I guess I disagree, Spoiled. Don't ask, don't tell doesn't depend on anything. It is discrimination pure and simple.

    It implicitly encourages people to hide something they should not be ashamed of.

    I'm sorry you experienced this, Wrey. I wish your story and the thousands (yes, thousands) of servicemembers who go through his horror could have their stories known.
     
  9. SpoiledPrincess

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    As I read this thread this had nothing to do with the army, and how can a friend asking you your sexuality be discrimination, it's simple nosiness like them asking you what you like to do, what kind of films you like, what you did last night?
     
  10. Wrey

    Wrey New Member

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    Thank you again, and always, for your support buddy. (Big hug)

    SpoiledPrincess: In the United States the phrase Don't Ask Don't Tell is very specifically related to descrimination against gays and lesbians in the armed forces. I realize that the term has come to have the more loose meaning of the topic of sexuality in the workplace, any workplace.

    Although I try to take a more worldly view, it hurts me to know that this phrase has become watered down. This issue is alive and ugly today in the U.S. and it means degradation and denegration for so many people. It means just one more way for one more group to be marginalized. It allows one more point of entry to EVERY CITIZEN of the U.S. to have their lives scrutinized and found wanting.
     
  11. SpoiledPrincess

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    As I'm English I didn't realise the term had come to be solely applied to this, when it's used to discriminate in the armed forces it's absolutely ridiculous. We're people 24 hours a day and during most of that time our sexuality isn't even a consideration, like any form of unjustified discrimination it should be illegal and actionable.
     
  12. Wrey

    Wrey New Member

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    Truly, thank you for your words of support. I knew full well that we chiming in from different cultural points of view and background, so no worries at all. :cool:

    Am I correct in the belief that the United Kingdom has removed these laws from its armed forces?
     
  13. SpoiledPrincess

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    In September 1999 the European Court of Human Rights ruled that excluding gay people from the army breached human rights and the ban on gay people serving in the army was lifted in January 2000. Funnily enough the army didn't fall apart :)
     
  14. Wrey

    Wrey New Member

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    Yeah, in the U.S., the idea of the 'services falling to pieces' was also used as an argument for:

    1) Keeping women from serving in the armed forces.

    2) Keeping people of color from serving in the armed forces.

    In neither case did the U.S. military self destruct.

    As an aside to this topic, I would like to add that there were and are vast numbers of str8 people serving today who also want to have these laws removed. I had all kinds of friends, str8 and gay alike, in uniform who knew that I was gay. NO ONE CARED!!!

    It's as though there is a cancerous core of individuals who happen to have power and influence who want to maintain a situation of inequity.

    The str8 people serving in the armed forces who would side with gays and lesbians are forced into silence because they themselves could very well find the cold eye of the OSI upon them.

    During the witch hunt at Templehof, three of the service members who were removed were STR8!

    They were removed because they admited that they knew of gays and lesbians with whom they served. They knew, they had no problem, and they even supported us. For this they lost their jobs.

    If someone wants to persecute me for who I am, that's one thing. To deny my friends their livelyhoods because they were cool with me, because they cared about me, because they loved me as true friends, that, IMHO is a karmic felony of the highest order!
     
  15. DC_DEEP

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    I'm not certain of the exact status these days, but a friend of mine was one of the subjects of that issue when it was going through the process in the UK. He was a high-ranking officer in the Royal Navy (four gold stripes on his epaulet, I don't remember the designation at the moment) and fought to keep his job and his commission when he was outed. I believe the ban was overturned in the UK, but again, I am not certain.

    I finished my one tour of duty just barely before DADT was implemented. Back then, it was simply "under no circumstances let ANYONE know you are gay." The question "Are you now, or have you ever been, a homosexual" was part of the enlistment process.
     
  16. monsternmypant

    monsternmypant New Member

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    DADT makes me mad as hell because it affects one of my partners and our relationship on a daily basis. My younger partner Steve joined the U.S. Marine Corps knowing the danger of being perceived as Gay or Bisexual in the Armed Forces, but he never imagined wanting anything more than down-low quickies or being a top during man-on-man rapes that take place as rites of initiation. Some days he openly questions whether he would have been better off being a fully closeted jarhead, rather than falling in love with another man, then another, and sharing a home with us. Can any of you who don't get how evil DADT is imagine how you would feel hearing from your spouse or lover those sorts of thoughts?

    Hell, as far at the USMC is concerned, he doesn't even live here. He lives with my family in my old room that is now littered with some of his crap.and my parents take in his mail and would gladly tell any investigators that he trades groundskeeping and handyman services for rent. The arrangement causes less stress for him than what he sees some of his closeted peers go through, but I still can't be in public with him and have any semblance of PDA like I can with Mike. And if the three of us are together, well... The fear at this point is not around being discharged but being shaken out of a seemingly long-term post out of the line of fire into the hell that is Iraq and Afghanistan. If Steve got sent over there to his horror and Mike or I thought we played a part in it, we would never be able to live with ourselves.

    DADT was a stupid compromise by Bill Clinton, and it's still hurting GLBTQ serivce members and their families of birth and choice more than it helps the bullshit "unit cohesion" that is talked about. Racism, sexism, and religious prejudice are still evident in the Armed Forces, but they haven't been written into code like DADT.

    Stop the prejudice, Stop the rape. Set my lover free!

    Support Servicemembers Legal Defense Network!

    "Big D"
     
  17. LeeEJ

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    These days, in the US military, it's not asked at all (as is the policy under discussion here). But, at some point in the enlistment process, you're handed a sheet and told to sit down quietly by yourself to read it. It says, effectively, that homosexual behavior is illegal in the military and can result in your being discharged.

    I sat there and thought carefully about it. Since I'm straight, it really doesn't apply to me (although, technically, anything besides penis-vagina sex is prohibited under the UCMJ... no blowjobs, doing a girl up the butt, etc). But, it IS awkward being in such an organization while some of my friends back from college and here in DC are most definitely gay.

    I figure that if there's going to be any change for the better in the military, it has to come from within. And, even if it's going to be slow as hell, it's gotta start sometime. Might as well be one of the good guys, then.
     
  18. DC_DEEP

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    Quite correct. I understood that is how the process works now, I was just putting in a little pre-DADT perspective.
    Also true, (and you left out adultery, that's against UCMJ too) but those would usually be pursued as Article 15, at most... and then only if the CO had a vendetta against the "perpetrator." There were 3 men in my unit who were having extramarital affairs; everyone knew about them. Only one, though, pissed off the Major, and ended up in a court martial. Most often, it's ignored or a "back-slappin', locker room joke" situation if a serviceman is getting blowjobs from a female or committing adultery. Awkward, indeed.
     
  19. LeeEJ

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    Oh, the soap opera that has gone on in my unit, even only since I've been here...

    Back in boot camp, there was a class on the UCMJ, and part of it talked about how sex related to it. Gay sex wasn't even discussed much since it was basically understood to be outlawed. When oral & anal sex were also described as outlawed, there was a collective, "Wha..??" from the recruits.

    The instructor then went, "Okay, now tell me this..." He went out one door at his end of the lecture hall, came back in through another, and said, "Now, tell me what happened while I was gone. Anyone?" Nobody really had an answer, and he goes, "Now, who could say that I didn't get a blowjob from my wife while I was back there? What happens behind closed doors doesn't matter, does it?"

    HMMMMMMMMMM...... kinda makes you think, doesn't it...
     
  20. Wrey

    Wrey New Member

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    I'll tell you what his comments make think....

    They make me think that my right to something which is as integral and unchangeable to myself as my eye color lays in the hands and opinions of another. It makes me think that I live in a country where my existance has none of the protections that are the right of everyone else.

    It makes me think that the Constitution of The United States is spit upon every day by the very people who claim to protect it.

    We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal.

    Really? Are we really holding these truths? Do we honestly think they are self evident? Are we really treated equally?
     
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