"Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

[Wrey]

Just to answer a few questions.

We talked about the Don't Ask Don't Tell thing in my Spanish class not because of the military, but my teacher considers herself an activist for gay rights. We talked about it in practical application of life, business, public places, etc.

Playainda: I realize that the initial tone of this thread had nothing to do with the military. The reason I swung the discussion is because of the choice of words. Let me explain....

Don't Ask Don't Tell has come to have a rather loose meaning concerned with dicussion of one's sexuality or sex life within environes that might be considered questionable such as work or school. My issue is that D.A.D.T. means a very specific thing to a cirtain group of people. When this term is coopted to mean something else, especially something rather casual, then it dismisses the import of the original issue. It makes those of us who have felt the strong, backhanded slap of discrimination feel that what happened to us is being taken lightely enough for the terms and words of our experience to become commonplace, even comical catch-phrases.

Have you ever heard a person use the word Gay to mean lame, bo-bo, stupid....?

When I hear people use this word in this way my blood turns to steam. They have no idea how much more insulting it is to hear this word mean lame or stupid than it is to hear it used to describe someone as homosexual.

I realize that this is an arguement on semantics, but sometimes semantics count. Semantics can be a window into how we think.

When I hear someone use D.A.D.T. casually, what I hear is someone saying that they have no sensitivity or care about me and my experiences or the experiences of others.

 

[DC_DEEP]

When I served in the USMC (89-93) it was widely known that three or 4 of the seargants in the communications platoon were having affairs on their wives.

No one batted an eye even though everyone joked about it being against the UCMJ.

Then a rumor went around that one of the corpsman was gay and he was relieved of his duty but forced to stay in the company.

Amazing how certain rules are not enforced while others are.

Further illustration of the points I made earlier, but more succinct. Thanks, Sklar!

 

[playainda336]

Playainda: I realize that the initial tone of this thread had nothing to do with the military. The reason I swung the discussion is because of the choice of words. Let me explain....

Don't Ask Don't Tell has come to have a rather loose meaning concerned with dicussion of one's sexuality or sex life within environes that might be considered questionable such as work or school. My issue is that D.A.D.T. means a very specific thing to a cirtain group of people. When this term is coopted to mean something else, especially something rather casual, then it dismisses the import of the original issue. It makes those of us who have felt the strong, backhanded slap of discrimination feel that what happened to us is being taken lightely enough for the terms and words of our experience to become commonplace, even comical catch-phrases.

Have you ever heard a person use the word Gay to mean lame, bo-bo, stupid....?

When I hear people use this word in this way my blood turns to steam. They have no idea how much more insulting it is to hear this word mean lame or stupid than it is to hear it used to describe someone as homosexual.

I realize that this is an arguement on semantics, but sometimes semantics count. Semantics can be a window into how we think.

Well let me clarify by saying I am definitely not taking lightly the connotation of the term. I created this thread in hopes of getting a better understanding.

Well, I don't mean to take lightly your experiences. You must understand, I've never been in the military, so I don't know how it was handled there. My knowledge of D.A.D.T. is just in the business place where it just is irrelevent, in my opinion.

I've definitely heard the word "gay" to mean "lame", "dumb", or "stupid". But I've also heard gay people using it for the same thing. Not to misdirect the semantics of the word, but "gay" originally just meant "happy" and not any of those words or "homosexual". In today's world, it seems like the discussion of the word "gay" and it's cultural connotation of "homosexuality" has certain similarities to the use of the word "nigger"/"nigga" (I'm Black...it's ok. I can say it. LOL) as the word originally just meant "ignorant" but people mean it to mean "Black".

Not the same, but I definitely do see the similarities.

When I hear someone use D.A.D.T. casually, what I hear is someone saying that they have no sensitivity or care about me and my experiences or the experiences of others.

Hmm...very interesting.

I only beg to present the opposing view. For someone who hasn't dealt with D.A.D.T. in the same way you have, it's not seen that way. They don't mean to take lightly your treatment. At least I don't think so...

...then again, I'm not everybody so.

Great Responses. Keep them coming!

 

[DC_DEEP]

Of course it would never happen in this sector of the galaxy, but I just wonder... what would happen if every gay and gay-friendly person in this country wrote to their senators and representatives, and demanded an immediate end to the ban on gays in the military? Just I thought, and yes, I know it will never happen.

 

[playainda336]

Actually, that's an issue that I wouldn't mind supporting full force.

I feel like sexuality has no bearing on the character of a person or the ability of a person to do their job.

I'm all for that issue.

 

[LeeEJ]

If some of the closed-minded jackholes (who currently enjoy the military being homosexual-free, at least on paper) decide to get out of the military if the ban was lifted, then that would be fine by me.

 

[Lex]

Of course it would never happen in this sector of the galaxy, but I just wonder... what would happen if every gay and gay-friendly person in this country wrote to their senators and representatives, and demanded an immediate end to the ban on gays in the military? Just I thought, and yes, I know it will never happen.

Imagine if every gay, bisexual and lesbian person and their supporters stood up, were counted and marched on Washington?

Powerful stuff.

 

[AlteredEgo]

I think a lot of people focus on the "Don't Ask" part, and I agree that it's nobody's business except yours and partners as to whom you have sex with. However, when the policy is applied and enforced military leaders tend to focus on the "Don't Tell" part. They have interpreted this to mean that gay and lesbian soldiers cannot openly attend gay and lesbian events (e.g., marches, parades, etc.). Most fear being "outed" for just going to a movie and dinner on a date. I believe this is what your Spanish teacher was talking about.

In theory, Don't Ask, Don't Tell is fine, but in reality, it's not workable at all, and in my opinion, it creates discrimination!

This is incorrect. They may attend marches and parades, just not in uniform. My boyfriend actually read me the policy because we were discussing this very issue. Rumors nor known association with other homosexuals are grounds for discharge or courtmarshal. According to the policy as it is written, an investigation must find that there is more than reasonable reason to believe that the person is commiting homosexual acts. That means sex or kissing. It seems very similar to the fraternizing policy to me.

Sec. 654. Policy concerning homosexuality in the armed forces

It's 3/4 of the way down the page; the word homosexual is highlighted in magenta.

Having said that, I am opposed wholly to this policy. Members of the military who I asked about it all seem to focus on the "unit cohesion" portion. They wonder what the homo is thinking about when they're in a ditch together. I figure the homo is thinking about not dying, and not accidentally shooting a friendly. But maybe I'm just crazy. I figure the same argument could be used to keep out anyone. What are those latinos, blacks, Asians, etc thinking about? Hubcaps? Basketball? Lo mein? Sex? No! Everyone's trying to stay alive. I also say, anyone who's willing to die for me, is free to have a go at it. I know I'm not looking to enlist!

 

[D_Sheffield Thongbynder]

Congress has an opportunity to rectify a shameful injustice. DADT is an enormity that needs to be done away with. Period.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Actually, that's an issue that I wouldn't mind supporting full force.

I feel like sexuality has no bearing on the character of a person or the ability of a person to do their job.

I'm all for that issue.

If some of the closed-minded jackholes (who currently enjoy the military being homosexual-free, at least on paper) decide to get out of the military if the ban was lifted, then that would be fine by me.

Imagine if every gay, bisexual and lesbian person and their supporters stood up, were counted and marched on Washington?

Powerful stuff.

Thanks, guys, I always thought it would be a good idea, I've just always been pragmatic enough to know that it never will happen. And in a way, that's sad, because so much discrimination could be eliminated with so little effort.

 

[Male Bonding etc]

Thanks, guys, I always thought it would be a good idea, I've just always been pragmatic enough to know that it never will happen. And in a way, that's sad, because so much discrimination could be eliminated with so little effort.

Well, knowing that the military was one of the first institutions to end racial segregation in the US, makes me a little more optimistic, DC, that this too shall pass.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Well, knowing that the military was one of the first institutions to end racial segregation in the US, makes me a little more optimistic, DC, that this too shall pass.

I'll try to be a little more optimistic, but I don't think the military integrated (racially) willingly, nor have any of the military academies integrated (by gender) willingly. In the meantime, I do what activist work I can, and hope for the best.

 

[Lex]

I'll try to be a little more optimistic, but I don't think the military integrated (racially) willingly, nor have any of the military academies integrated (by gender) willingly. In the meantime, I do what activist work I can, and hope for the best.

What do we need to do to organize a march?

I'm there.

 

[DC_DEEP]

What do we need to do to organize a march?

I'm there.

Lex, handsome, to be perfectly honest with you, a letter-writing blitz to Senators and Representatives, demanding that sexual orientation be added to the Federal non-discrimination policies would be more effective than a march. Unfortunately, the so-called gay rights activist organizations won't initiate it, and I don't have enough influence to solicit sufficient numbers to make a difference. Getting rid of Scott Bloch would also help.

If we were ever able to get the prohibited personnel practices changed in Title VII of the Civil Right Act of 1964, and in the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978, then and only then would anyone be able to put any real pressure on the Pentagon to reverse the ban on gays serving in the armed forces.

 

[witchway]

I'll try to be a little more optimistic, but I don't think the military integrated (racially) willingly, nor have any of the military academies integrated (by gender) willingly. In the meantime, I do what activist work I can, and hope for the best.

I was in the US Army (88-94). I was a language specialist (spanish, french,and german) and got to travel all over the world. Including the first Gulf War in ´91! I never really hid the fact that I was bisexual and none of my superiors ever made a fuss about it. I got laid on a quite regular basis and I even brought dudes on post to my room! Maybe I was just lucky, but I never felt discrimination in my various units. I hope someday all men and women (gay or bi) will be able to say the same!:smile:

 

[DC_DEEP]

I was in the US Army (88-94). I was a language specialist (spanish, french,and german) and got to travel all over the world. Including the first Gulf War in ´91! I never really hid the fact that I was bisexual and none of my superiors ever made a fuss about it. I got laid on a quite regular basis and I even brought dudes on post to my room! Maybe I was just lucky, but I never felt discrimination in my various units. I hope someday all men and women (gay or bi) will be able to say the same!:smile:

Thanks for the post, witchway. It really does reiterate one of my earlier statements - the hierarchy of the military really doesn't care whether or not you are bi or gay, but leaving that prohibition (and especially the means to either ignore or enforce it) simply gives them a weapon to use against servicemembers who don't play the "office politics" games. I did my job well, and I functioned as a part of the unit, but I refused to brown-nose. If anyone, from my platoon sergeant on up to our OIC, had known I was gay, you can bet your life that I would have been court-martialed in a heartbeat.

 

[witchway]

Hey DC! I think your absolutely right about some higher ups using the "gay card" as a means of getting some soldiers to cow-tail to them and have them pretty much subservient, for fear of being kicked out and dishonorably at that! I´m just glad my military experience was free of all that!:smile:

 

[DC_DEEP]

Hey DC! I think your absolutely right about some higher ups using the "gay card" as a means of getting some soldiers to cow-tail to them and have them pretty much subservient, for fear of being kicked out and dishonorably at that! I´m just glad my military experience was free of all that!:smile:

:tongue: Right. But none of them suspected me of being "one o' them queers." So, they used other weapons against me, namely, my conduct and proficiency marks, to keep me from getting promoted. Get this - I did my work well enough that the Assistant Chief of Staff recommended me for a Navy Achievement Award ( Navy Awards ), which I did receive; but my conduct and proficiency marks were so low that during a routine administrative review, our company commander asked me why my NJP or court-martial were not documented in my service record book. I replied that I had never had any disciplinary action. Apparently, marks that low could only be given for Marines who had received official disciplinary actions. The company commander blew a fuse, and ordered my CO to fix it, but that never happened. So, I didn't get a single promotion after completing A-school, but I did get a Navy Achievement Medal.

 

[Adrian69702006]

I think there is some wisdom in 'don't ask don't tell'. At present the Anglican Communion is tearing itself apart over the issues relating to homosexuality and homosexual practice. Bishops in the 'global south' which is to a large extent a developing part of the world and has a different perspective on things to the north west are declaring themselves at odds with their more liberal counterparts in Britain and America. The great pity is that it's all so unnecessary. People's sex lives should be private, particularly if they choose for them to be private, and that's where the matter should end, regardless of their sexuality. What consenting adults do in private should be regarded as their own business and that should be the end of the matter.

 

[DC_DEEP]

I think there is some wisdom in 'don't ask don't tell'. At present the Anglican Communion is tearing itself apart over the issues relating to homosexuality and homosexual practice. Bishops in the 'global south' which is to a large extent a developing part of the world and has a different perspective on things to the north west are declaring themselves at odds with their more liberal counterparts in Britain and America. The great pity is that it's all so unnecessary. People's sex lives should be private, particularly if they choose for them to be private, and that's where the matter should end, regardless of their sexuality. What consenting adults do in private should be regarded as their own business and that should be the end of the matter.

I really do not care, not one single iota, about the Anglican Communion. And in turn, they should not care, not one single iota, about me and my private life. I agree with your statement that "what consenting adults do in private should be regarded as their own business." I don't agree that there is any wisdom at all in "don't ask, don't tell." Heterosexual couples can keep their copulation in private, but they don't have to hide other aspects of their lives. "Don't ask, don't tell" requires same-gender couples to deny major portions of their lives that have nothing at all to do with copulation or sex.