Don't Boycott the Olympics (or Ceremony)

kalipygian

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Personal attacks should be left out of the debate.

The low figure for Tibetans who have died as a consequence of treatment under the PRC occupation is 300,000. The estimate by the Central Tibet Administration is 1,100,000.

Protesters killed in Tibet the last two months are estimated @140. Detained several thousand.
 

faceking

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The low figure for Tibetans who have died as a consequence of treatment under the PRC occupation is 300,000. The estimate by the Central Tibet Administration is 1,100,000.

Protesters killed in Tibet the last two months are estimated @140. Detained several thousand.


Stats getting twisted here.... Rep Barbara Lee, at the forefront here.... said some estimates are at 140..... and detainees are approx 1,000.

China's Govt Does Not Reflect
 

kalipygian

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Stats getting twisted here.... Rep Barbara Lee, at the forefront here.... said some estimates are at 140..... and detainees are approx 1,000.

China's Govt Does Not Reflect

The 140 figure consists of names reported by Tibetans in their own country to their government in exile.

The PRC is not allowing independent verification, they flew in a group of reporters to Lhasa, but kept them on a short leash.
 

Chick&2DicksUK

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When we went to China, as mere tourists, we were allowed pretty much nowhere without our "guide".

China is perhaps third only to North Korea and Burma in its control over their people and visitors.

Actually, it's before Burma, not after, so it's second only to Korea (which exists only with China's permission - so maybe it's ipso-facto first, too).

At least we know where Burma's "official" 'Guantanamo' is (not sure about their unofficial ones).

Insein Prison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note, the prison is pronounced "insane" in Western-speak.
 

dong20

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When we went to China, as mere tourists, we were allowed pretty much nowhere without our "guide".

China is perhaps third only to North Korea and Burma in its control over their people and visitors.

It must have been a long (20 years+)time ago, or you were in semi-restricted areas or (more likely), being fed a line. I have been in China several times, in several regions, urban and rural - including Tibet which I wasn't 'allowed' to go but that's never stopped me before, sometimes for weeks at a time. It was just me.

I suppose they could have been spying on me, but Le Carre it's not. I can't speak to what happens to travellers in North Korea or Burma, yet. Cuba is quite restrictive, but there too like most restrictions, they're relatively easy to circumvent.

That said, I've not been in China since late 2004 (briefly) so things could have changed in the 'guide' area ... Drifter?
 

midlifebear

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The International Olympic Committee is just a fancy, altruistic-sounding name for a business model that generates a steady revenue stream with the "idylic" gloss of the ancient Greek's concept of athletic achievement. It is a FOR PROFIT business. That alone is enough to boycott the Olympics.

"The IOC distributes proximately 92% of Olympic marketing revenue to organisations throughout the Olympic Movement to support the staging of the Olympic Games and to promote the worldwide development of sport. The IOC retains approximately 8% of Olympic marketing revenue for the operational and administrative costs of governing the Olympic Movement." That all sounds spiffy, but the organisations in question are media outlests such as television networks and advertising companies.

You can even check out the guestimate in revenues raked in by the mormon church in 1992 (that religious organization oversees Bonneville Broadcasting Corporation (which owns the local NBC Television affiliate, radio station, and second largest newspaper in the State of Ewetaw, among other media outlets across the USA).

A friendly athletic competition is one thing, but moving mountains (which the IOC was able to encourage the State of Ewetaw to actually do), enriching politicians (Senator Born' Orrin Hatch, most notably) as well as messing with the ecological health of the planet (how many athletic stadiums and giant slaloms do we really need?) is not a nice way to treat mother nature.

And now it's OK to support this FOR PROFIT organization's pockets by celebrating repressive governments? Come to Barçelona where I will happily take you on a tour of condemned Olympic swimming pools and substandard housing now used by the city government for teaching classes for le Universitat de Barçelona that are slated to be torn down because of asbestos and . . . well, just cheap building materials. Some of it's still working (the main Olympic Park), but the outer venues (veledrome, for example) are a drain on the local economy.

By all means BOYCOTT the OLYMPICS.
 

titan1968

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Aren't Chinese companies heavily involved in the oil and gas sector in Burma? The People's Republic of China also sells weapons to the military dictatorship in Burma (we all know what happened to their democracy movement and their supporters a few months ago); they also support financially and politically the regime in North Korea (another military dictatorship). We musn't forget their actions in the Sudan (Darfur)....

When we went to China, as mere tourists, we were allowed pretty much nowhere without our "guide".

China is perhaps third only to North Korea and Burma in its control over their people and visitors.

Actually, it's before Burma, not after, so it's second only to Korea (which exists only with China's permission - so maybe it's ipso-facto first, too).

At least we know where Burma's "official" 'Guantanamo' is (not sure about their unofficial ones).

Insein Prison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note, the prison is pronounced "insane" in Western-speak.
 

kalipygian

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Aren't Chinese companies heavily involved in the oil and gas sector in Burma? The People's Republic of China also sells weapons to the military dictatorship in Burma (we all know what happened to their democracy movement and their supporters a few months ago); they also support financially and politically the regime in North Korea (another military dictatorship). We musn't forget their actions in the Sudan (Darfur)....

The military dictatorship in Burma/Myanmar is so heavily supported by the PRC it is almost a client state. Quite possibly it would have otherwise been overthrown.
 

faceking

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The 140 figure consists of names reported by Tibetans in their own country to their government in exile.

The PRC is not allowing independent verification, they flew in a group of reporters to Lhasa, but kept them on a short leash.

In understand and sympathize with the Tibetan cause, but am barely wise to understand that both sides will twist and bump figures. Granted 1 vs 140 doesn't make it right... just here to keep stats honest and/or disclosed.

Noticed here in SF... there was CLEARLY about 80%, if not more... pro-China vs pro-Tibet supporters circa torch time....
 

kalipygian

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In understand and sympathize with the Tibetan cause, but am barely wise to understand that both sides will twist and bump figures. Granted 1 vs 140 doesn't make it right... just here to keep stats honest and/or disclosed.

Noticed here in SF... there was CLEARLY about 80%, if not more... pro-China vs pro-Tibet supporters circa torch time....

That would not be what got reported.

There is a very old large Chinese community there, perhaps the largest in the country. They probably outnumber the Tibetans by more than 100 to 1. A person could have pride in their Chinese background and their country's increased prosperity without being against improving human rights for peoples subject to the PRC.

There was a lot of organizational effort and probably money expended, as well as pressure to turn out in support.

I used to know some Iranian students whose tuition was paid for by the Shah. They had to show up and demonstrate in his favor when he visited the US. It is probably much the same with students from the PRC in the US, I don't know how much financial assistance their government gives them, but they probably have a variety of holds, they have no hesitation in arm twisting.

Came across a report by a Russian correspondent of upwards of 2,000 being arrested in one incident in the Tibetan majority western Szechuan, formerly eastern Kham province of Tibet. Most are processed, fined, put through political re-education sessions, forced to denounce the Dalai Lama and 'splittism' on tape, not held permanently.
It did not start as a protest, they were trying to conduct some of their traditional religious services, which the authorities did not want to allow.

The Dalai Lama is arriving in Seattle tomorrow for a five day 'Seeds of Compassion' program. I thought Desmond Tutu was going to be there also, but I don't see his name on the schedule.

Seeds of Compassion : 5-Day Gathering in Seattle
 

transformer_99

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I don't give a flip about the Olympics anyway. Effectively my apathy has the same effect as a boycott. Olympic basketball is the NBA anyway, Olympic baseball is the MLB, Olympic Soccer is FIFA/Professional Soccer. The other sports, Olympic Hockey, that's the NHL, eventually the skiing and and so on are X Game people. Just another avenue to promote professional sports. Who cares who the fastest runner/swimmer is ? We saw the steroid abuse across all sports in the last 20, 30, 40 years, it is what it is !

Besides, Tibet stands in the way of inhuman rights and Wal-Mart. Everything we hold near and dear in America. Tibet needs to be assimilated back into China. Really, a bunch of Tibetan monks standing in the way of progress and the new world order. They continue this road, might as well add them to the endangered species list like spotted owls. This will be interesting though, the Jews/Israel were put on that list from WW II and the holocaust. Since America has a deep financial interest in/with China, do we save Tibet like the Jews ?
 

kalipygian

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This Blog will tell you things about the Tibet that was liberated by China.

News Checker: Dalai Lama, A Hero in the Western World

(If the Nobel committee finds out about all that, they will probably want his peace prize back:biggrin1:)

Those pictures are probably from the propaganda museum the Chinese government has set up in Lhasa, with diorama's of monks torturing serfs. Ninety percent of the tourist visitors to Tibet are Han, probably most of them believe it, and think it justifies their rule. I don't see any credibly connection with any of that with any cruelty by the fourteenth Dalai Lama. A cup made out of a skull was something that was kept around.

I have read quite a few historical contemporary first hand accounts of visitors to Tibet before Chinese rule, I don't recall a mention of flaying. Sir Charles Bell, the British commissioner to Tibet, Sikkim, and Bhutan for the first quarter of the 20thc, said that the Tibetans governed themselves more decently than did the Chinese themselves. Also that the Chinese were much crueler to subject and 'inferior' peoples. The Thirteenth Dalai Lama came close to abolishing the death penalty entirely.

Ritual use of human bones does not necessarily mean the person was cruelly treated or purposely killed. They were used for material for cups, jewelry for ritual dancers, and trumpets. Similar to a Momento Mori in European culture. A reminder of the impermanence of the earthly vessel. I'm a bit skeptical about the use of human skin for drums. The bones would have been from a highly respected person, probably a Lama, not an unknown. They would have been passed down over many generations, and used in ceremonies.

The Tibetans, like the Zoroastrians, practice 'sky burial', the corpse is dismembered, the bones are pounded up and mixed with barley flour, all is fed to vultures. I would not want to witness it. I would be glad if my remains or those of my loved ones were put to some practical use, such as feeding birds. Our practices of inhumation or cremation waste a lot of resources.

Even if some of it were true, it does not give the PRC the right to rule and exploit Tibet as a colony. The present issue is the present behavior of the CCP dictatorship.

If you would like to read some first hand accounts of the cruelty of the PRC in the first quarter century of their rule over Tibet, I suggest 'In Exile from the Land of Snows', John Avedon, 1984.
 

Drifterwood

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Did you read the discussion that followed those historic pictures Kali?

I am in China at the moment. There are two sides to every story. A lot of Chinese people have become enraged at the dishonour shown to the Chinese Olympic torch and quote the manhandling of a handicapped Chinese Paralympian in Paris. The Chinese Government is trying to keep a lid on the demonstartions and anti French sentiment.

I wouldn't mind the debate, but the free Tibet slogan just emphasizes how little most Westerners know about the history and issues. I have this vision of all the Fox News brigade who couldn't have pointed to Tibet on a map a month ago, now saying "Fuck Yeah - Free Tibet".

Conditions in China today and incomparable to the repulsive rule endorsed by the Dalai Lamas pre '51. If you want to support monks who ritually drink wine mixed with human blood out of human skulls. That's just dandy. Whistle away on your thigh bone flute.
 

kalipygian

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Did you read the discussion that followed those historic pictures Kali?

I am in China at the moment. There are two sides to every story. A lot of Chinese people have become enraged at the dishonour shown to the Chinese Olympic torch and quote the manhandling of a handicapped Chinese Paralympian in Paris. The Chinese Government is trying to keep a lid on the demonstartions and anti French sentiment.

I wouldn't mind the debate, but the free Tibet slogan just emphasizes how little most Westerners know about the history and issues. I have this vision of all the Fox News brigade who couldn't have pointed to Tibet on a map a month ago, now saying "Fuck Yeah - Free Tibet".

Conditions in China today and incomparable to the repulsive rule endorsed by the Dalai Lamas pre '51. If you want to support monks who ritually drink wine mixed with human blood out of human skulls. That's just dandy. Whistle away on your thigh bone flute.

I wonder how they did that without gagging?:confused: (are you sure you don't have them confused with the Aztecs?)

So, someone there directed you to that website?

People outside the PRC have access to a variety of sources, while the people of the PRC are raised with only their own government's propaganda.

True, many westerners grew up with the Shangri-La and Lost Horizons mythologies. Some get beyond that. People do readily take up causes that don't cost themselves anything. (Tibet, the 'western treasure house' has about 40% of the mineral resources under the PRC's control)

I am aware that the PRC media tries to present themselves as victims. People should not hurt their feelings by mentioning their occupation of Tibet. I have come across some unbiased reporting by Chinese in Hong Kong. I think trying to portray the Olympic Torch relay as something sacred is quite overblown. The blue track suited Chinese torch guards have themselves manhandled torchbearers.

The Dalai Lama has repeatedly asked that demonstrations be non violent. The PRC should thank him, rather than inventing lies about him. They just make themselves look silly and shrill.

I came across a report about a student in the US who was offered $40., lunch, and transportation to demonstrate against the visit of the president of the ROC.
 

The Dragon

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Our Olympic team will not be boycotting the Olympics and our swim team will kick arse in the pool yet again.
Everyone knows that Australian's have to swim fast to avoid the sharks and the crocs! Slow swimmers get eaten.
 

faceking

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Did you read the discussion that followed those historic pictures Kali?

I am in China at the moment. There are two sides to every story. A lot of Chinese people have become enraged at the dishonour shown to the Chinese Olympic torch and quote the manhandling of a handicapped Chinese Paralympian in Paris. The Chinese Government is trying to keep a lid on the demonstartions and anti French sentiment.

I wouldn't mind the debate, but the free Tibet slogan just emphasizes how little most Westerners know about the history and issues. I have this vision of all the Fox News brigade who couldn't have pointed to Tibet on a map a month ago, now saying "Fuck Yeah - Free Tibet".

Conditions in China today and incomparable to the repulsive rule endorsed by the Dalai Lamas pre '51. If you want to support monks who ritually drink wine mixed with human blood out of human skulls. That's just dandy. Whistle away on your thigh bone flute.

How dare do you post contrarian thought, much less the other side to the story amongst the "there is no argument" logic that permeates the Etc Etc thread??? (sarcasm awry)

If ya'll hate China so much, quit buying any shit made in China. Boycott any and every store that carries their goods, etc...

nah, it's more convenient to partake in buffoonery, and draw attention to myself and find sort of public validation in sprinting after an innocent torch bearer.