Eden / The concept of Original Sin

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Dr. Dilznick, Jun 4, 2005.

  1. Dr. Dilznick

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    If man was supposed to live content there without aging, working, etc... for eternity, why was the serpent in there? Also, consider an omniscient God knows putting the "snake" and "tree" there would end up in us falling. It was a set-up.

    Plus, notice how God cast Adam & Eve out of the Garden so they WOULDN'T live forever? An addition: God expects man to make the right choice regarding the trees BEFORE he gives them the knowledge of good and evil. Again, a massive set-up, or at least that's what it looks like to me. Any comments?
     
  2. Imported

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    hung_big: Ironic how he doesn't want them to eat from the tree of knowledge, no?
     
  3. iggy

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    there is no right or wrong answer with regards to this.

    in the story of creation, these are the things are meant to happen. god created man to be tempted by the devil.

    but the bible is not to be read literally. it is to be reflected. things written on the bible may or may have not happend actually, as it is written by people who were not physically present at the time of happening, but guided by the wisdom of the holy spirit.

    these are the things imposible to fathom by the human psyche. there is no right or wrong explanation. faith then is there. firm belief of things without logical proof.


    iggy.


    p.s. these are my beliefs.. you mat or may not agree with me..
     
  4. Pecker

    Pecker Retired Moderator
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    It's not really as complicated as it at first seems.

    Sure, it's a setup but it's a tried and true method that has been done before and will be done again (eternity is a long, long time after all.)

    Adam and Eve were given everything they needed to live a paradisical life, forever if they wanted it that way, but they were also commanded to multiply and replenish the Earth.

    Enter the serpent. He tempted Eve to eat of the tree (his motives were self-serving: he hated Jehovah and would delight in the suffering of His creation) and once she succumbed to the temptation she realized what a horrible thing had happened. Now she was condemned to physical death but Adam was still in an eternal state - they would not be able to have children.

    When Adam understood what had happened he agreed that the only thing that made sense, as far as mankind was concerned, was for him to partake of the fruit also.

    To keep them from eating of another tree that would circumvent death, allowing them to live forever without the opportunity for salvation, Jehovah banned them from the Garden.

    It was not the action of an angry, deceiptful God but rather it was a realization of the Plan that continues to this day.
     
  5. iggy

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    depends really on how you interpret the story of creation.. just like holy trinity, 3 persons but 1 god...

    man beore eating the fruit of knowledge doesnt really know abot good and evil (reason why they are not ashame of being naked). But because the serpent TEMPTED and FOOLED the woman to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge, they were given understanding of what is good and evil (also realizing that they are naked).

    because they have knowledge of what is good and evil, they were not allowed to eat any fruit from a tree that gives life, and live forever.


    iggy
     
  6. B_RoysToy

    B_RoysToy New Member

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    God's purpose was to give man the freedom of choice. Without which growth would be impossible. Man (used collectively including female), even in the Garden of Eden, had the choice of eating or refraining from eating from the tree. He chose the wrong path, but God used this original choice to make possible the growth which humanity needs to learn to live closer to God. We learn from our mistakes and hopefully don't continue to make them, hence growth results.

    Man was given million of years to learn and grow, but, again, failed to be strong enough to overcome sin and live closer to God. I believe He sent his son Jesus to serve as an example for mankind to follow. Once again sin stood in the way and Jesus was crucified by sinful man. God's will was for man to live as Jesus lived, which would have kept Him from dying on the cross. Ultimately God's will will prevail, although in a different manner. After the crucifixion. faith is mandatory for mankind to grow to overcome sin.

    I believe Heaven is living close to God, regardless of what we designate as a place. We are very limited with our finite words to describe the infinite.

    Help me out, here, Jacinto. Are my thoughts compatable with your position?

    Luke
     
  7. Dr Rock

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    who lives in the east 'neath the willow tree? Sex
    :eyes:
     
  8. Dr. Dilznick

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    How can it be sin when he gave them a choice before they had the knowledge of good and evil; they were given an option of right and wrong without knowing what right and wrong were.



    "And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.""

    It's not sin, his reason for casting them out was he didn't want to have man be like him (know good & evil AND live forever) The idea that all men are born sinners (a core Christian dogma) stems directly from this tale. Remove original sin: no baptisms, no Jesus dying for all our sins, etc.



    I never brought God's goodness into question; just the common conceptions of this myth. People claim it's a simple test, when it's not simple in the slightest and the test isn't fair.



    Individual Christians may take a metaphorical view of it, but the church (central voice of interpretation of the Bible for Christians) still maintains it as literal. This is the exact fall, not a metaphorical one. And most Christians take churches' edicts as the Bible as it's supposed to be read; they hardly give any personal interpretation to it. And BTW I'm not challenging Christianity, I'm actually playing within it because I personally don't believe this tale literally in the slightest, but am arguing for a reinterpretation of it within the framework of the faith.



    Ah yes, Satan as a servant of God, much like his role shown in Job, which some would term the first full appearance of Satan (while earlier references are just cameos.) And BTW, no church acknowledges a set-up; their view is one of man falling, disobeying God of complete free will, (not accurate) not the set-up view.
     
  9. B_DoubleMeatWhopper

    B_DoubleMeatWhopper New Member

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    My opinion, and the opinion of many noted theologians, is that the story of the Garden of Eden is an allegory. Much of the Bible should not be taken literally. The first task in interpreting the Eden story is defining what sin means. In theological terms, sin is that which separates us from God. Okay, let's think about what 'separates' us from, i. e. what makes us different from, God. The most obvious difference is that God is pure Spirit, but we are encumbered by flesh. God, as Spirit, is omnipresent. Since we are in the flesh, we can only exist in one particular place. This physical form is the origin of our separation from God: Original Sin. Our physical bodies have physical needs that would not be necessary if we were spirits, so we look for ways to ease our burdens. The only way we can do that is by trying to gain knowledge of what can make the way easier for us, in other words, we succumb to the temptation to obtain knowledge. Some would see this knowledge as contrary to God's plan for us, so such temptation must come from the Devil. So we are in the state of Original Sin, and that is somehow bound up with the knowledge of the difference between right and wrong. Baptism washes away the taint of Original Sin, but we are already in the flesh. As we grow, we gain knowledge, but we continue to reaffirm our Original Sin by engaging in actual sin, thus separating ourselves from God throughout our life. When we die, however, we are finally free of our bodies and, as Spirit, we are able to join with God.

    As an aside, according to mediaeval tradition, the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge was not an apple, as so many refer to it, but the quince.
     
  10. iggy

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    i am saying my beliefs as a member of the roman catholic church. i was not taught in catholic schools and church to take the bible literally but metaphorically.

    Christianity has lots of branches/sects. each branch has different beliefs for that matter.

    iggy
     
  11. B_DoubleMeatWhopper

    B_DoubleMeatWhopper New Member

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    I don't what denomination you refer to as "the church", but that is not the view of the Catholic Church.
     
  12. iggy

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    remember that God made man by his own image...

    iggy
     
  13. iggy

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    right.. but these again are the things that are meant to happen..

    For god so loved the world, he gave us his only son, Jesus Christ our saviour..

    iggy
     
  14. B_DoubleMeatWhopper

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    remember that God made man by his own image...

    iggy
    [post=317819]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]

    Yes, but in my opinion, that means that man has a soul, and that soul is a mirror of God's Spirit. That is the part of us that will not die when the body expires. I don't believe that 'made in His own image' means that He created man to 'look like' Him.
     
  15. Dr. Dilznick

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    My sincere apologies. Perhaps it's the effects of 20+ years of indoctrination from a Protestant upbringing.
     
  16. Dr. Dilznick

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    Another aside: the X chromosome in humans is the "default" one, which makes me think that women came first.
     
  17. Dr Rock

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    the X chromosome is the "default" in every sexually dimorphic animal species, just so you know. I won't even bother explaining how far beyond retarded it'd be to bring evolutionary biology and scientific fact into a discussion of a work of fictional dogma. you wanna believe all that drivel, be my guest, but don't go confusing it with the real world - that's when everything starts going very badly wrong, as history demonstrates.
     
  18. steve319

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    Isn't there a school of (academic) thinking that believes the creation story to be an early Jewish children's tale that ended up adopted as "truth" after awhile?
     
  19. Dr Rock

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    who cares?
     
  20. Freddie53

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    For the record, the points that Jacinto made about his view of the creation story which is Roman Catholic is also the view held by most mainline Protestant denominatoins: Episcopal (Anglican), Lutheren, Presbyterian and Methodist.

    The literal view of the Creation story is held by fundamentalist Christians and conservative Evangelical Christians.

    Since it is an allegory, it is not necessary to nickpick why God would create a serpent. The serpent is necessary to the story.

    Here is some other comments made on the story. I believe these are basic views held by most who do not consider the story to be a literal story but an allegory.

    Adam and Eve represent all of human kind. The situation is simple. Man has a choice and man always ultuimately chooses to live away from God and no person ever born has been in total communion with God. We aren't able to completely understand God. We are not able to bridge the gap and completely see God. That is the concept of original sin. The words "original sin" do not appear in the Bible.

    So in the story humans make wrong choices and aren't able to be completely in the presence of God. They no longer have the previledge of living in a perfect world which is the garden.

    God did not want humans eating from the tree of life because he did not want humans living forever in a nonperfect world. He wants humans to come to heaven where there is perfection.

    But here is where it gets sticky. God decided to let man have a free will and make his own choices. Therefore, it is up to humans to decide when they wish to have a relationship with God.

    Let us digress a moment. Before the creation story, there was a rebellion in heaven and some of the angels revolted under Lucifer. There is no uniform opinion if Lucifer and the serpent are the same identity.

    There is no need to get too caught up in the details of this story. It is an allegory. It was never meant to be taken literally. And the details simply make up an exciting story to tell and retell.

    However, according to Christian theology. This sin which is separation from God needed to be corrected. Enter Jesus who came and lived a sinless life and died on a cross. This is called the atonement. That means that Jesus paid the price for the sins of all the people in the world. Past, presnet and future.

    So the only "sin" that is a real problem is the rejection of God. To reject God is to also reject the perfect heaven that is there for all people when their earthly bodies die.

    There is some suggestions in the Bible about humans having a choice after death to choose a relatiionship with God. I will admit that it is not crystal clear to me about what choices our spiritual being can have after the death of our physical bodies.

    The Creation Story is a wonderful story to tell to help explain the human predicament in that we humans do not on our own have a connection to God and it is of our own doing. The Bible says as the story later unfolds that God has a plan to allow all humans to have that complete communion with God.

    That is why the Sacrament of Holy Communion is so sacred to most Christians. It reenacts the story of God himself dying as a man to show that salvation is available to all. And it is a process by which we are in communion with not only God, but all the saints and those people who have died who are also at Communion with God. The people of God who have died and gone on into heaven are at Communion with God as we are at communion with God when we receive the Sacrament of Holy Communion. It is my personal belief that at the Sacrament of Holy Communion all those people who I have loved and died can see me at the altar from the "cloud of witnesses" as described by St. Paul. It is a very special time for me.

    The Story of the Creation must be understood in light of the story of the entire Bible. To get mired into the details is to lose sight of the purpose of the story.

    The short version is this:

    We screw up. God makes it possible to get out of this imperfect world and into a perfect world in heaven. We all screw up. hinse the concept of original sin. But make no mistake about it, we each have our chocies and while all do mess up amd choose not to be in communion with God. it is still a choice. And it is a choice of humans to get into Communion with God or a choice to tell God to shove it. Either way it is a free choice each of us have to make.
     
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