Eden / The concept of Original Sin

madame_zora

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I think what's being said is that the OT, much like the NT was largely comprised of writing down oral traditions. I believe the authors of the books were not necessarily the original storytellers so much as perhaps the ones with the literary skills for writing. No, I wasn't there, but we know enough about the traditions of those times to make what could be considered an educated guess. That's the best we're ever going to get, I'm afraid. Until we master the art of time travel, we'll never know exactly how it came to pass, we have enough trouble recounting with any accuracy things that happened in our own country a hundred years ago.

There was disease, famine, theft, fighting, and the more educted scribes and priests of the time found it necessary to give people a way to understand how to prepare food in a way that would not make them sick, not to eat things that weren't good for them, make them understand why they shouldn't hold grudges against their fellows, shouldn't steal, cheat, lie, should work to support themselves, not have sex with close realtives, and the like. I think the Bible neither proves nor disproves the existance of God, but gives some practical advice for living if you can weed it out from amid the stories. If God exists, one could see it as a way to bring honour to your heavenly father to do what is good and follow His advice, but if you don't believe it was inspired by God there is still much there that is useful. I don't like to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but I find a lot in the Bible that is of no practical use to me personally. Yet there is some that is. There is absolutely NO PROBLEM with reading with discernment a book that was neither written by one author, nor even during one time period! Just because a small group of fundies believe you have to doesn't make it so.
There is also no problem with taking as allegory stories that were written as such. If it is made clear in the NT as blatantly "Here is a parable...", then I don't see it as much of a stretch to assume that that was a commonly accepted style of communicating an idea of that time. Perhaps is was the style even before that, as in when the OT was written, things changed much slower back then. We must remember how few people were actually able to read and write back then, so most stories HAD to be orally passed on. We've all played whisper-down-the-line, we know how that works.

To assert that the Truth has not been reported perfectly doesn't mean that there is no truth to be told, only that it was told by imperfect human beings for reasons now unknown to us. As with any religous text I have read, there is a story of a God, a Messiah, a corrupt people who needed to learn a better way. These premises are universal and therefore give me some question as to the Truth of religous (moral) principles. I believe we all have an innate desire to do good, but before we can we must know what it is. Was this desire implanted by God? Do others creatures who walk the Earth have it? Does it really exist or do we just want to believe it does?

I have a difficult time going the nihilistic route and believing we were formed from nothing, going nowhere, have no purpose. I cite as evidence the exquisite mechanics of our bodies, how all the creatures on Earth form a food chain, the chemical balance of the planet, the mathematical beauty of the rotation of the plantes around the sun, galaxy, etc. This all appears to form a pattern and I can't wrap my mind around the concept that it is for no reason. Perhaps man's concept of God is infantile at best, but that still doesn't make me a complete non-believer. Sure, I'm non-believer if you ask me if I take the Bible literally and follow it's teachings, but I love many of the teachings of Christ (as they have been reported) and his valiant attempt to restore our focus to one of peace. Jesus called us to give away our possessions and dedicate our lives to the well being of others. It's hard to find fault with that. He bade us to forgive each other our transgressions, feed each other, share our good fortune, and comfort each other. Sure, I can pick out inconsistancies in the book other people wrote about him, but I'd rather look at how he lived, what he was doing, why he claimed to do it, and what happened as the result. I don't have to believe his mother was a virgin to respect greatly what he dedicated himself to doing. I don't have to believe Barney is real to believe there were dinosuars either.
 

iggy

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Originally posted by GottaBigOne@Jun 5 2005, 03:44 PM
Isn't it rather presumptive to say that "the creation story was never meant to be taken literally" How would you know? Did you write it?
[post=317974]Quoted post[/post]​


Scientifically, it has no proof (but it is an accepted theory on how the universe was created).

Church's proof, the bible. and FAITH!

and... it was written by people through the wisdom of the holy spirit, which may not be present at the time of happening. a known fact.


iggy
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by Dr Rock
the X chromosome is the "default" in every sexually dimorphic animal species, just so you know. I won't even bother explaining how far beyond retarded it'd be to bring evolutionary biology and scientific fact into a discussion of a work of fictional dogma. you wanna believe all that drivel, be my guest.
I already said I didn't, and I know good and well that 99% of scientists that are anti-evolution are creationists/Christian (or otherwise religious). I for one would be more than willing to debate creationists. If anyone is interested, don't forget to list the many NON Christian scientists and their credentials (no pharmacists or mail-order "Doctors" please) as well as the academic journals in which their work has been published.
 

iggy

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Originally posted by madame_zora+Jun 5 2005, 04:38 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madame_zora &#064; Jun 5 2005, 04:38 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>To assert that the Truth has not been reported perfectly doesn&#39;t mean that there is no truth to be told, only that it was told by imperfect human beings for reasons now unknown to us. As with any religous text I have read, there is a story of a God, a Messiah, a corrupt people who needed to learn a better way. These premises are universal and therefore give me some question as to the Truth of religous (moral) principles. I believe we all have an innate desire to do good, but before we can we must know what it is. Was this desire implanted by God? Do others creatures who walk the Earth have it? Does it really exist or do we just want to believe it does?[/b]




FAITH&#33;


<!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora
@Jun 5 2005, 04:38 PM
I don&#39;t have to believe his mother was a virgin to respect greatly what he dedicated himself to doing. [/quote]



another church dogma.. Mary, mother of Jesus Christ, was in fact a virgin, when she conceived Jesus, with the power of the Holy Spirit and Born.

you may question, Jesus Christ was God, yet the also the Son of God. The holy spirit is also God, yet also the Holy Spirit we know in a form of a Dove. another dogma. Three persons, one God..


iggy
 

madame_zora

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I would never accept as fact anything that could not be proven.

Dogma=I believe it because someone told me to. I could never do that and look myself in the eye.
 

Pecker

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Originally posted by iggy@Jun 5 2005, 06:27 AM
Three persons, one God..
[post=317992]Quoted post[/post]​

Three persons, three Gods.

God the Father.
God the Son.
God the Holy Ghost.

Simple concept. Easier to imagine.
 

Pecker

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"Thank you for calling Schwartz, Schwartz, Schwartz & Schwartz."

"Is Mr. Schwartz in?"

"No, he&#39;s out playing golf."

"All right, then let me speak to Mr. Schwartz."

"He&#39;s not with the firm any more, he&#39;s retired."

"Then let me talk to Mr. Schwartz."

"He&#39;s away in Boston, won&#39;t be back for a month."

"Okay, then let me talk to the other Mr. Schwartz."

"Speaking&#33;"
 

Dr. Dilznick

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The Bible does not support the Trinity, but it does refer to Elohim; the plural title of God used during Judaism&#39;s infancy to deal with a monotheistic God within a polytheistic culture area.
 

B_DoubleMeatWhopper

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Originally posted by Dr. Dilznick@Jun 5 2005, 11:50 AM
The Bible does not support the Trinity, but it does refer to Elohim; the plural title of God used during Judaism&#39;s infancy to deal with a monotheistic God within a polytheistic culture area.
[post=318006]Quoted post[/post]​

Scripture does not refute the Trinity. We see in the Gospel according to St. John that the Logos (Word) was not only the Son of God, but also God Himself ("In the beginning was the Word; the Word was in God&#39;s presence, and the Word was God."). The Word was God the Son, and it&#39;s clear from the above passage that the Word wasn&#39;t simply an emanation, but was God, though distinct from God the Father. In many places in the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, Jesus was referred to as the Word. And what of the Holy Spirit? The Hebrew word for &#39;Spirit&#39; is rûah, which also means &#39;breath&#39; and &#39;wind&#39;. There are many instances in the Old Testament which speak of the rûah as a creative Force, the &#39;breath of God&#39;. Christ said, "I will send you my Spirit." At His baptism, the Spirit descended upon him like a dove. The Scriptural references to the Spirit which indicate that It is part of the Whole God, therefore part of God Himself, are too numerous to mention. There is indeed Scriptural support for the Trinity if you know where to look.

The Elohim discussion is a whole other can of worms.
 

iggy

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Originally posted by madame_zora@Jun 5 2005, 07:07 PM
I would never accept as fact anything that could not be proven.

Dogma=I believe it because someone told me to. I could never do that and look myself in the eye.
[post=317996]Quoted post[/post]​

Things in the Old Testament arent really facts. Nobody cannot prove it. They are stories that as human beings need to reflect to. they are written by persons not present at the time of happening, guided by the holy spirit.

Fact: Many things in this world nobody can explain. even science. like From where we came from. is there really an omnipotent being to start with?

dogma: its not that you believe something because someone told you to. there is no explanation to this but FAITH.

before the spaniards conquered the philippines and brought Catolicism, The natives used to believe in "bathala" the creator. They would venerate idles.
People would create stories about the unexplainable and belive on it. Faith there comes in. So when spaniards came, thay taught Catholicism. People were forced to believe on Jesus Christ, the Bible, and the Catholic Faith. So, is this really Faith? I think so, Yes...

Children, when born on a Moslem Family, He would revere Allah and the Qu&#39;oran. thats Faith. when born on a Catholic Family, he would revere Jesus Christ and the Bible. thats Faith.

in the end, it doesent really matter who you believe on, as i believe that there is only one God. Just too many representations/persons.

iggy
 

headbang8

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Let me get this straight...

The bible isn&#39;t literal truth. It&#39;s an allegory to help explain what god is like, the nature of the universe, the difference between good and evil, and the responsibility we need to take for ourselves and others.

OK, if that&#39;s so, I think there are better tools for the job.

Many of the themes that run throughout the bible are shown in Aesop&#39;s Fables, often better put and easier to understand. For example, the tale of the bald man and the fly (moral: revenge hurts the avenger) makes much more logical sense than the asserted doctrine to turn the other cheek.

Isn&#39;t the whole rich-man-camel-eye-of-the-needle schtick better told in Tom Wolfe&#39;s Bonfire of the Vanities? or Jonathan Franzen&#39;s The Corrections? Or even Dickens&#39; Christmas Carol? The last tells us much more about the redemptive qualities of charity than any passage I can recall from bible study.

And so it goes. Do I need to believe that Aesop has a hot-line to god in order to trust what he says? No. It makes eminent human sense even without that endorsement. We only need recourse to the authority of god if the stories and parables simply don&#39;t make sense, and we have to be threatened into believing them.

As hung_big points out, A&E are forbidden to eat from the tree of knowledge? I smell a rat, here. Sounds like the authorities interpreting the word of god brewed up some opiate to keep the masses quiet.

For me, I find redemptive grace in all art. A good story of any kind tells us things we can&#39;t see, understand, or explain in any other way. And to give it its due, the bible (especially the new testament) is a ripping good yarn.

But it&#39;s no more than that.

I&#39;m with Dr. Rock and GBO on this one. Let&#39;s get back to business. Do I see a thread on Adam in Celebrity Endowments?
 

iggy

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Originally posted by headbang8@Jun 5 2005, 11:05 PM

And so it goes. Do I need to believe that Aesop has a hot-line to god in order to trust what he says? No. It makes eminent human sense even without that endorsement. We only need recourse to the authority of god if the stories and parables simply don&#39;t make sense, and we have to be threatened into believing them.

As hung_big points out, A&E are forbidden to eat from the tree of knowledge? I smell a rat, here. Sounds like the authorities interpreting the word of god brewed up some opiate to keep the masses quiet.

[post=318032]Quoted post[/post]​

We were given Free Will, so we could believe at whatever we wanted to belive... just like we want to have sex to whomever we want... right? :evilgrin:

But there should be a Central Authority, the Church (Catholic), does not to tell the people what to and what not to believe, but to set guidelines on the principle of right and wrong.
In the end, it would really depend on the beliefs and views of the individual. The church cannot dictate this. This is the reason why there are so many denominations in the Christian Faith.

iggy
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by headbang8
As hung_big points out, A&E are forbidden to eat from the tree of knowledge? I smell a rat, here.
Also consider this: Genesis 2:16-17 has God telling Adam:

"You may eat from every tree in the garden, but not from the tree of knowledge of good and evil; for on that day you will certainly die"

I&#39;ve always had a hard time understanding why Christians say the serpent lied to Eve. Interesting little tidbit: Eve hadn&#39;t even been created yet, mind you (she didn&#39;t come into existence until Gen 2:21), so she was never told this to begin with. But that&#39;s beside the point. The point is that God said that Adam would die the day he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the serpent said he wouldn&#39;t. Sure, you could say it corrupted the human flesh who until then were to live eternally, but none of that is actually in Genesis (or the Bible at all for that matter).

I&#39;ll respond to DMW&#39;s post later.
 

B_DoubleMeatWhopper

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Originally posted by Dr. Dilznick@Jun 5 2005, 03:18 PM
Also consider this: Genesis 2:16-17 has God telling Adam:

"You may eat from every tree in the garden, but not from the tree of knowledge of good and evil; for on that day you will certainly die"

Would it be better to phrase it as "...for at that time you will certainly sign your own death warrant"? Dealing with the Scripture in translation is dodgy at best. Hebrew has many peculiarities that we don&#39;t have to deal with in English, and as a result, much of the character of Hebrew expression is lost. Yôm meant &#39;day&#39;, but it also meant an &#39;unspecified period of time.

I&#39;ve always had a hard time understanding why Christians say the serpent lied to Eve.

Because the serpent did lie to Eve. "But the serpent said to the woman: "You certainly will not die&#33;" Ummm, guess what: Eve did not live forever: she died&#33;
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper
Because the serpent did lie to Eve. "But the serpent said to the woman: "You certainly will not die&#33;" Ummm, guess what: Eve did not live forever: she died&#33;
There was a tree of life, that if they ate from they would live forever. God&#39;s fear of them living forever (with the knowledge of Good and Evil, hence the "become like God" of which the serpent spoke") was what prompted their expulsion from Eden. So basically, they did not have eternal lives before then, so eating the tree didn&#39;t make them die. How do you not see that?


The passage is Gen 3:22-23

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

That makes it glaringly obvious that they were NOT going to live forever before eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Meaning that eating from the tree did NOT make them die. Meaning that the serpent was NOT lying.
 

Dr. Dilznick

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And even if he did lie, it&#39;s irrelevant. The argument is that they did not die by eating the fruit and death wasn&#39;t introduced because of it either. Address that, as that is all that matters.
 

B_DoubleMeatWhopper

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What does it really matter? Disecting an allegory is useless. It is not a literal history, therefore the details are not verifiable. The point of the story is that we are not like God: there is some &#39;image and likeness&#39; of God in us, but we are separated from God. Voluntary sin (like the eating of forbidden fruit) separates us even farther from God (like being driven out of the Garden of Eden [=Paradise]). It is a moral tale, not a documentary on the History Channel. Trying to disprove a premise by disputing the factuality of a fable is weak.
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper
What does it really matter? Disecting an allegory is useless. It is not a literal history, therefore the details are not verifiable. The point of the story is that we are not like God: there is some &#39;image and likeness&#39; of God in us, but we are separated from God. Voluntary sin (like the eating of forbidden fruit) separates us even farther from God (like being driven out of the Garden of Eden [=Paradise]). It is a moral tale, not a documentary on the History Channel. Trying to disprove a premise by disputing the factuality of a fable is weak.
Repost: "I personally don&#39;t believe this tale literally in the slightest, but am arguing for a reinterpretation of it within the framework of the faith." The argument has nothing whatsoever to do with facts. I&#39;m well aware of that.

So tell me, what did eating the fruit do besides give them knowledge of good and evil? You&#39;re implying it killed them, but providing no scriptural evidence whatsoever to defend that position, and it&#39;s central to the discussion. Could you show me when it says or even implies that they were going to live forever before they ate from the tree?

Anyway, you said the serpent lied to Eve. I&#39;ll post the lines in Genesis where the serpent spoke. Gen. 3:4-5. He said specifically:

"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

That is all that has been said about it. The serpent said they would be as gods by knowing good and evil and God confirmed exactly that word for word in Gen. 3:22. Let me post it again.

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever."

What is the discussion about here? Who cares the degree to which they were like God? No one is even discussing that. All that matters is what the serpent said was 100% true. They became as gods by knowing good and evil. Do gods know good and evil? Yes. Did Adam and Eve before that point? No. Did they attain that knowledge after eating the fruit just like the serpent said they would? Yes. Fuck.