Eden / The concept of Original Sin

[Dr. Dilznick]

Originally posted by Krueger
the "not referring to physical death" sentence is explained two sentences before, saying that the "you shall surely die" was spiritual death: they lost their holiness. if you look at the death God warned the two about as this spiritual death, then they "on that day" passage makes sense. Their holiness would have been lost instantly.

You did not offer an explanation other than to say that it would make sense. It's just an assumption on your part.

 

[Freddie53]

Wow,

I never realized this story was this complicated. I take it as a simple story to explain to ancients that God is perfect and humans are imperfect and it is because of humans imperfections and that the story provides a backdrop for the Christian story of God redeeming humans through Jesus. God promises immediately that a plan to restore humans to complete harmony with God was being formulated and carried out.

It is accepted amongst most Christian theologians that the death talked about in the Adam and Eve story is spritual death. Through Jesus people can live forever spiritually.

This is what I have always been taught. Of course this whole tale is told through the perspective of Christian theololgy that has a Savior come (Jesus) and rescue human beings from their terrible mistake in the Garden. The word Adam is also translated man. Again, to look at the story's overall arching focal points instead of looking at little details makes the story have more sense at least to me. In other words, What is the "big picture" of this story? That is what really matters to me.

 

[jay_too]

I think it would be interesting to get the Jewish and Muslim persectives on the creation and the story of Adam and Eve.

In my freshman year at college, I remember reading a historical overview of the old and new testaments. One of the few things I remember with clarity is that the stories of creation and of Adam and Eve were relatively late additions to the old testament. They were written 100 - 70 BCE and not 3000 - 2000 BCE as much of the old testament was. It was believed that there was a need to explain the creation of the world; this need represented the influence of other middle eastern religions upon Judaism with their detailed stories of the creation.

jay

 

[GottaBigOne]

Freddie: I said that some parts of christian belief are "evil" to me. I use the word "evil" to make a point, to me it means very very wrong and harmful. I do not think you are harmful, just very wrong, but again thats my opinion I could be wrong about the whole thing. I do not think you are evil because I do not think your beliefs are held with bad intentions, I don't think you realize some of things that I do in christianity, I think if you did you wouldn't uphold them.
But then again, I don't know you, you could be Hitler!!

 

[13788]

Krueger: Yes, the idea that God was speaking to Adam and Eve about spiritual death is an assumption, but most of the arguments here are just those, assumptions, and though this one is not 100% provable, it's also not able to be proven against, and it's my belief and it works out quite well. It may not be right and I'm not trying to assert that it surely is, but it's working out fine for me. If you wanted my opinion, then there you have it.

 

[GottaBigOne]

Originally posted by Krueger@Jun 7 2005, 01:38 AM
Yes, the idea that God was speaking to Adam and Eve about spiritual death is an assumption, but most of the arguments here are just those, assumptions, and though this one is not 100% provable, it's also not able to be proven against, and it's my belief and it works out quite well. It may not be right and I'm not trying to assert that it surely is, but it's working out fine for me. If you wanted my opinion, then there you have it.

[post=318462]Quoted post[/post]​

This seems to be the argument used most to defend religious beliefs: "You can't prove it doesn't exist so I can choose to believe it anyway!" "You can't prove that there isn't an invisible hobgoblin living in the wiring of my computer so I can choose to believe there is!"

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by GottaBigOne@Jun 6 2005, 08:12 PM
Freddie: I said that some parts of christian belief are "evil" to me. I use the word "evil" to make a point, to me it means very very wrong and harmful. I do not think you are harmful, just very wrong, but again thats my opinion I could be wrong about the whole thing. I do not think you are evil because I do not think your beliefs are held with bad intentions, I don't think you realize some of things that I do in christianity, I think if you did you wouldn't uphold them.
But then again, I don't know you, you could be Hitler!!

[post=318455]Quoted post[/post]​

Oh I am aware of some of them. Jesus himself said there would be false prophets and that people would do all kinds of things in His name and that He would not know them. Anyone can say they are Christian and do anything they wish and many have. Truth is my worst judgements in my mind are against what I precieve to be false Christians. To me Christian living is love, not hate; sincerity, not fraudism, compassion, not greed; truth, not falsehood, eternity, not finiteism; hope, not despair; sharing, not covetness; character and duty, not complete moral failure. The eternal truths are found in all religions. Sadly the fakers are in all religions as well. There are some very fine Muslims. Then there are those who call themselves Muslims who hate and only want to murder. There are "Christians" who want to bomb and kill doctors who perform abortions. They is very unchristian.

GotabiogOne. despite our differences, I expect to see you in heaven. Why? You have the very ideals that I percieve and the highest ideals that a Christian should have. (That being from my perspective of course.) You explained yourself. And had I walked in your shoes, I might have said the same things you did. But I didn't. I know a lot of what I believe is very romantic from a literature perspective. But I believe in a merciful, compasiionate God who is in the business of creating. I really do believe when God is finished, God's creation will be perfect.

You have been nothing but kind to me in explaining your position. I appreciate that very much. I respect you much more than some who use the word "Christian" by their name who are basically frauds. Though I try not to judge other people. But some are so flagrant, it is hard to ignore like some TV preachers. Many of them, I won't even listen to AT ALL.

 

[GottaBigOne]

Thank you Freddie, you are definately a very moral and righteous person in my book. I believe you are a freethinker and not just a religious automaton blindly follwoing certain ideals because they suit your purposes. I wish there were more like you. If there is a heaven, I hope to be there with you as well, and if there isn't I hope you get the best out of this life.

 

[Dr. Dilznick]

Originally posted by Krueger
Also, i don't believe the Bible specifically does call that serpent the devil, but it is to be picked up from God's talk with Adam and Eve promising the coming of a savior.

What verse in Genesis suggests this? Please be specific.

Also, you fail to recognize the fact that it does directly cite the serpent (as in the species) itself as being the most cunning of all creatures created by God. On top of the fact that Eve did not appear startled or surprised to be in the presence of a talking serpent (belonging to a species which otherwise did not have the ability to talk.)

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen. 3:14,15

^I'm really confused as to how one can look at this verse, and see anything other than God saying that He will put enmity between the snake's offspring (snakes) and woman's offspring (people). Do you think the offspring of the serpent should be held accountable for the actions of Satan?

Yes, the idea that God was speaking to Adam and Eve about spiritual death is an assumption, but most of the arguments here are just those, assumptions, and though this one is not 100% provable, it's also not able to be proven against, and it's my belief and it works out quite well. It may not be right and I'm not trying to assert that it surely is, but it's working out fine for me. If you wanted my opinion, then there you have it.

No need to get defensive. There must be some kind of indication in the Bible that God was speaking about spiritual death, that's all I'm saying.

 

[jonb]

Yeah, the talk of a savior is way, WAY down the line. I think in Malachi. The mention of the Satan (as a job description, not an individual) is in Job, but he becomes an individual in the New Testament.

PEOPLE! There are about 50 different authors to the Bible. It SHOULD remind you of Rashomon. (Or at least that's how I remember it.)

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

The identity of the serpent of Eden: oh, goody ... we get to delve into ancient Semitic mythology and Hebrew word-play! According to ancient Hebrew mythology, the chief angel of the choir of Seraphim (the highest order of Angels) was an angel so dazzling that the Latin version of his name was Lucifer ('Light-bearer&#39. Lucifer was jealous of the power of YHWH and led a revolt in Heaven. He gathered a host of rebellious angels and waged warfare to try to usurp YHWH's place. The heavenly army of loyal Angels was led by the Archangel Michael, the second most exalted Seraph. During the battle, Lucifer was vanquished by Michael. The Abyss was created to house the defeated Seraph Lucifer, and he was renamed Satan ('Adversary&#39. Ever since, his mission is to turn all creatures against YHWH. He gathers the souls of those whom he seduces to join his infernal army in hopes of eventually wresting the power away from YHWH. Now comes the word-play: the word Seraph in Hebrew not only refers to one of that order of angels; it is also the Hebrew word for serpent. As a reference to his former glory in heaven, the serpent is the favourite guise of Satan.

"And the seraph appeared to the woman in the Garden."
"What seraph?"
"You know ... THE Seraph."
"Oh ... THAT seraph!"

Among the Hebrews, the serpent represented knowledge and healing (because of the renewed body emerging from the dead skin during the slough), and this was partly because it shared its name with the most glorious of angels, but it was also associated with death (because of its venomous bite) and Satan. The story of the fall of Man is the most famous instance of Satan assuming the form of a serpent, but it was a common image in Jewish folk stories. You will see a serpent crushed under the foot of the Virgin Mary in many statues of the Madonna and Child. This signifies that the birth of Christ crushed the reign of Satan.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper@Jun 7 2005, 06:26 PM
The identity of the serpent of Eden: oh, goody ... we get to delve into ancient Semitic mythology and Hebrew word-play! According to ancient Hebrew mythology, the chief angel of the choir of Seraphim (the highest order of Angels) was an angel so dazzling that the Latin version of his name was Lucifer ('Light-bearer&#39. Lucifer was jealous of the power of YHWH and led a revolt in Heaven. He gathered a host of rebellious angels and waged warfare to try to usurp YHWH's place. The heavenly army of loyal Angels was led by the Archangel Michael, the second most exalted Seraph. During the battle, Lucifer was vanquished by Michael. The Abyss was created to house the defeated Seraph Lucifer, and he was renamed Satan ('Adversary&#39. Ever since, his mission is to turn all creatures against YHWH. He gathers the souls of those whom he seduces to join his infernal army in hopes of eventually wresting the power away from YHWH. Now comes the word-play: the word Seraph in Hebrew not only refers to one of that order of angels; it is also the Hebrew word for serpent. As a reference to his former glory in heaven, the serpent is the favourite guise of Satan.

"And the seraph appeared to the woman in the Garden."
"What seraph?"
"You know ... THE Seraph."
"Oh ... THAT seraph!"

Among the Hebrews, the serpent represented knowledge and healing (because of the renewed body emerging from the dead skin during the slough), and this was partly because it shared its name with the most glorious of angels, but it was also associated with death (because of its venomous bite) and Satan. The story of the fall of Man is the most famous instance of Satan assuming the form of a serpent, but it was a common image in Jewish folk stories. You will see a serpent crushed under the foot of the Virgin Mary in many statues of the Madonna and Child. This signifies that the birth of Christ crushed the reign of Satan.

[post=318664]Quoted post[/post]​

DMW,

Thanks for your explanation. For the record, that is the version my late father had a Master's Degree in the Ancient History of the Middle East from Memphis University. But I can't remember all the details of the legends and ancient Hebrew mythology. My father was a Protestant minister and would have agreed with every word that you said. So that puts mainline Protestant and Catholic dogma on the same page concerning these creation stories.

Again, I repeat, so far everyone agrees on one thing. That these stories are allegories. That are full of symbolism. There is a much deeper meaning than what appears on the surface. To get caught up in one verse is opening the door to totally missing the main points of the story.

So, if a verse doesn't make sense, do ask. DMW is more likely than me to explain the mythology. But from what I have read of his comments puts him on the same page as what I was taught and what my father learned at the graduate level concerning ancient history.

My father died at age 65. I was not expecting it. I didn't write down sources and information. I just assumed he would be there with the info when I needed it.

DMW, I enjoy your posts on religion so much because you write with clairty and with the specific information and that reminds me of my father's great intellect. At his death, the other ministers said that he was the greatest authority on the Bible in this entire area. Ministers called him regularly for information.

It is refreshing to hear those stories the way you tell them. I haven't heard the mythological backgrounds of those stories since my father died. Very few Protestant ministers delve that much into the creation stories.

Jacinto, you may be just three years older than my eldest son, but your wealth of knowledge about the Bible is just stunning for a man of your age.

Thanks for your input.

Freddie

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

In classes at the seminary there is much emphasis placed on reading the Scriptures in their proper cultural, historical and linguistic contexts. When you learn these lessons, they stay with you. They might seem pretty useless in the outside world, but who knows? Maybe one day I'll be on Jeopardy and the clue will be, "The Aramaic words for 'hallowed be Thy name' "; I'll be ready!

 

[GottaBigOne]

Dmw, that was very informative post, thank you for your insight. But that leaves me with this question: Why do so many people base their lives on ancient mythology?

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

Originally posted by GottaBigOne@Jun 8 2005, 02:28 AM
Dmw, that was very informative post, thank you for your insight. But that leaves me with this question: Why do so many people base their lives on ancient mythology?

[post=318708]Quoted post[/post]​

Because they don't realise that there is a difference. I am religious, and I believe that the Bible is a very important book, but I realise that there are ancient literary devices like allegory and chiasmus and poetry and parables at work there that are not meant to be taken literally, but are meant to illustrate certain points more clearly. Unfortunately, people don't understand those devices, aren't taught about them by their clergy (who probably don't know about them either) and wouldn't care to become educated about them, anyway. It's easier to just say, "The Bible says it; I believe it; that settles it," than to actually learn something. That's unfortunate because they base beliefs on what they don't understand. Even worse, they usually base them on their ministers' interpretations rather than their own.

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

By the way, door-to-door evangelists avoid my house like the plague. One thing they're not taught to deal with is someone who knows something about religion, and especially someone who knows some Hebrew and Greek and has the Scriptures in their original languages on his bookshelf. Word gets around, and they want to skip the ordeal they'll encounter if they knock on my door to tell me what messages the Bible contains.

 

[Dr. Dilznick]

..

 

[Dr. Dilznick]

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper
The identity of the serpent of Eden: oh, goody ... we get to delve into ancient Semitic mythology and Hebrew word-play! According to ancient Hebrew mythology, the chief angel of the choir of Seraphim (the highest order of Angels) was an angel so dazzling that the Latin version of his name was Lucifer ('Light-bearer&#39. Lucifer was jealous of the power of YHWH and led a revolt in Heaven. He gathered a host of rebellious angels and waged warfare to try to usurp YHWH's place. The heavenly army of loyal Angels was led by the Archangel Michael, the second most exalted Seraph. During the battle, Lucifer was vanquished by Michael. The Abyss was created to house the defeated Seraph Lucifer, and he was renamed Satan ('Adversary&#39. Ever since, his mission is to turn all creatures against YHWH. He gathers the souls of those whom he seduces to join his infernal army in hopes of eventually wresting the power away from YHWH. Now comes the word-play: the word Seraph in Hebrew not only refers to one of that order of angels; it is also the Hebrew word for serpent. As a reference to his former glory in heaven, the serpent is the favourite guise of Satan.

"And the seraph appeared to the woman in the Garden."
"What seraph?"
"You know ... THE Seraph."
"Oh ... THAT seraph!"

Among the Hebrews, the serpent represented knowledge and healing (because of the renewed body emerging from the dead skin during the slough), and this was partly because it shared its name with the most glorious of angels, but it was also associated with death (because of its venomous bite) and Satan. The story of the fall of Man is the most famous instance of Satan assuming the form of a serpent, but it was a common image in Jewish folk stories. You will see a serpent crushed under the foot of the Virgin Mary in many statues of the Madonna and Child. This signifies that the birth of Christ crushed the reign of Satan.

The serpent in Genesis is clearly a serpent, "the shrewdest beast of the field that the Lord God had made," and it was cursed to crawl on its belly and eat dirt "all the days of its life," and was understood to be a serpent by ancient Hebrews according to even the Evangelical Christian Wheaton College professor of Old Testament, Walton, who wrote the NIV APPLICATION COMMENTARY on GENESIS (2002), available at any major Christian bookstore.

Serpent figures were common in the ancient world, and the description in Genesis of the serpent being stepped on and biting the heel of the seed of woman is merely a generic description of conflict. Hardly proof of anything. Consider Genesis, chapter 49 when Jacob blesses his children before his death, part of his blessing to Dan in verse 17 is: "May Dan be a snake beside the road, a viper by the path, that bites the heels of the horse so that its rider falls backward," (NET Bible). The generic term for serpent, "nahash," is used here (just as in Genesis when the "nahash" spoke to Eve). Most commentators believe that the serpent image in this passage is positive since this is a blessing. Dan, though a small tribe, will be as shrewd as a serpent, able to bite its enemies' heels so that they are defeated.
[NET Bible, 131, note no. 6; Sailhamer, 278; Henry, 92; The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, 46; H. C. Leupold, Leupold on the Old Testament. Vol. 2, Exposition of Genesis (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House and The Wartburg Press, 1942), 1188-1189]

In the story of Eve's temptation, the generic term for "serpent" is used, a "nahash." And that generic serpent is merely described as being "crafty," the Hebrew word being "arum," a word which is not necessarily negative, but suggests wisdom and adroitness, or being shrewd or clever.
[The Wycliffe Bible Commentary, 6-7; John H. Sailhamer, "Genesis," in The Expositor's Bible Commentary, vol. 2, ed. Frank E. Gaebelein (Grand Rapids: The Zondervan Corporation, 1990), 50]

There was also a miraculous sign given to Moses and Aaron when their rods were turned into serpents by God. (Exodus, chapters 4 and 7) Numbers, chapter 21, adds the story of "firey serpents" sent by God to bite the children of Israel, after which God commanded Moses to make a bronze serpent that brought healing to all who gazed upon it. References to "serpents" in the New Testament Gospels include Jesus telling the disciples to be "wise as serpents" (Matthew 10:16; 2); Jesus rebuking the Pharisees as "serpents and vipers" (Matthew 23:33); and a metaphor linking Jesus to the healing bronze serpent of Moses (John 3:14).

"Satan" is not a figure in Genesis, "satan" is only mentioned infrequently throughout the entire Hebrew Bible. In fact, the word "satan" probably did not begin as a personal name because in the earliest passages of Scripture the word is used in a generic fashion to describe both men and angels of God, and simply meant, "accuser." The "Angel of the Lord" who stopped the pagan prophet Balaam from going to a city to curse it, is called "satan." Yup, "an Angel of the Lord" sent by God is called "satan."

http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/skepticism/genesis_snake.html

 

[Freddie53]

To Dr D and all following this thread,

There is a basic difference here between what DMW and I believe about the creatoion story to what Dr. D believes.

Dr. D believes in a literal story with a literal Adam and a literal Eve with serpent in toe. So every verse is literal.

But DMW and I look at it from the culture of the Hebrews and consider it an allegory. Mythological. So the details mean much different things to us.

But make this clear. I don't think that we think the story is any less important. It explains a lot. I just prefer to look at the "big picture" of the story and try to understand it in the context of the culture in which the story was told and repeat probably for generations before it was written down.

While I will enjoy discussing and debating this as long as people wish, keep in mind that on all issues there will be a difference simply because we are not taking the same aproach to understanding the creation stories and will get differnet answers just about on every issue.

But I don't doubt the sincerity of Dr. D and what this means to him. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

 

[iggy]

the serpent isny actually satan, and angel or anything... it is a representation of Evil...


iggy