Electronic Voting Machines: Can They be Trusted?!?

[Lex]

From CNN.com and Time.com

Do You Trust This Machine?

...
A bigger worry concerns something that is least likely to happen--that someone will somehow meddle with the devices and manipulate vote tallies. It's not impossible. Princeton computer scientist Edward Felten and a couple of graduate students this past summer tested the defenses of a voting machine made by Diebold, a major manufacturer of such devices.

Felten's team found three ways to insert into the machine rogue programs that allowed them to redistribute votes that had already been cast. In one instance, the testers had to take the machine apart with a screwdriver--an act likely to draw the attention of poll workers. But in two others, they were able to quickly infect the device with a standard memory-access card in which they had installed a preprogrammed chip.

Other computer scientists have also breached electronic voting machines. Congressman Vernon Ehlers, a Michigan Republican who has been holding hearings this fall, says manufacturers "have produced machines that are very vulnerable, not very reliable and I suspect fairly easy to hack."...

 

[dong20]

From CNN.com and Time.com

Do You Trust This Machine?

As the article says such a machine is only as good (i.e. secure and tamperproof) as its programmers and designers design. A 'traditional' voting system is only as reliable as those running the polling stations, those securing and transporting the voting boxes and of course those counting the votes. So I think the better question should not be whether such a system is completely trustworthy - it isn't; but is it more or less subject to abuse than traditional voting systems.

Whatever the risk, I'm sure the use of such devices, at least at local level is inevitable. There have been trials of SMS and e-voting in some local elections in the UK and they seem to have been well received.

 

[tripod]

The problem is with the Diebold company... not electronic voting machines. Diebold has a monopoly over the electronic voting machines in the U.S., I bet that NONE of the machines in the UK are from that company. The president of the company vowed to "Do Everything he could to put George Bush in the White House". This was documented in a campaign letter sent before the 2004 election. Complete and utter Bullshit! I fucking HATE republicans sometimes...

 

[dong20]

The problem is with the Diebold company... not electronic voting machines. Diebold has a monopoly over the electronic voting machines in the U.S., I bet that NONE of the machines in the UK are from that company. The president of the company vowed to "Do Everything he could to put George Bush in the White House". This was documented in a campaign letter sent before the 2004 election. Complete and utter Bullshit! I fucking HATE republicans sometimes...

My point exactly. Technology is only a small part of the problem. It's those pesky organic parts of a system that are the leading cause of failure.

 

[rawbone8]

I started a thread back in September on the risk of hacking the machines.

Is Electronic Voting Secure? Princeton Scientists: NO

The article also noted that in some jurisdictions the polling station officers were allowed to take the machines home with them the night before election day to facilitate an early start.

SpeedoGuy's last post in the other thread points out some action to require paper receipts.

Interesting. Cheating and/or catching cheats can be managed in a lot of different ways. Confidence in the process is enormously important.

 

[ceg1526]

Give me the little old ladies who run my polling place and a paper ballot anyday. And give me some canidates I feel comfortable voting for.

Take care

Ceg

 

[cruztbone]

Yes, the litle old ladies took their job seriously and did so without partisan ship. Diebold is owned by a Republican loyalist group. Sequoia is owned by a businessmen's group from Venezuela. Only a paper trail can protect us from Ohip and Florida GOP dirty tricks. Demand that your state's secretary of state provide a paper trail of how you voted! WE WONT BE FOOLED AGAIN!!!

 

[jakeatolla]

As long as they don't run on Windows based systems .....:biggrin1:

 

[Tsimshan]

Not on my life and I prefere those little old ladies too.

 

[jeremyA]

I happen to knowsome people who work in one of the companies involved in a similar scheme in this country and to be honest you wouldnt trust them to look after your dog let alone protect your rights to a fair election.

 

[madame_zora]

I had a brief chat with a woman at the polling place where I voted in 2004 (where my "provisional ballot" that I had to use because my address had changed was not counted) who told me that the Diebold electronic voting machines had arrived registering votes for bush. She also told me that they couldn't be worked on by anyone other than Diebold technicians.

Sorry folks, no checks and balances here- only checks. Our elections are completely screwed.

 

[dong20]

...... who told me that the Diebold electronic voting machines had arrived registering votes for bush. She also told me that they couldn't be worked on by anyone other than Diebold technicians.

Sorry folks, no checks and balances here- only checks. Our elections are completely screwed.

To play Devil's advocate :

If she had said, "oh, they're so simple anyone with a basic IT qualification can open them up and work on them" would that have made you happier or more trusting?

The machines themselves are not the real problem, or only a small part of it. The same benchmark must be applied to the existing 'manual' process : (Mis)trust, scrutiny and accountability. If not then really isn't it merely an irrational fear of a new technology and/or process not a sound proven basis for belief that this new technology is fundementally flawed or the process systematically 'rigged'.

 

[ClaireTalon]

I've always wondered why the election system had to be altered to these hi-tech toys. Punch cards, now fully-electronic touch-screen computers, and similar, they may have their advantages and cut the costs of paying numerous persons to count X'es, but it's turned out that even the most user-friendly input masks confuse a lot of people. Intentions of manipulating existent or not, the likeliness of making mistakes in the process of handling these machines increases the risk that the actual vote and the desired vote put in by the voter are different.

Really, wouldn't a black pen and paper be enough?

A little input. I have a friend, a guy who is a German immigrant. He moved here over 20 years ago, so I won't vouch for the actuality of this, but he told me it was usual for his voting there to mark his paper ballot with pencil. Now talk about possibilities to manipulate an election.

 

[madame_zora]

To play Devil's advocate :

If she had said, "oh, they're so simple anyone with a basic IT qualification can open them up and work on them" would that have made you happier or more trusting?

The machines themselves are not the real problem, or only a small part of it. The same benchmark must be applied to the existing 'manual' process : (Mis)trust, scrutiny and accountability. If not then really isn't it merely an irrational fear of a new technology and/or process not a sound proven basis for belief that this new technology is fundementally flawed or the process systematically 'rigged'.

I'm getting the point that you like to play devil's advocate, but sometimes that means you're representing the devil.

No, there's NO possibility that it's an irrational fear, which you would know if you've been reading my rants about Ohio politics this year. Since it seems you haven't, I'll recap:

Ken Blackwell (R) oversaw the elections (big fucking joke right there, but you'd have to know his reputation to get it. The only thing black about Blackwell is his name).

The Free Press -- Independent News Media - Election Issues

Diebold was a MAJOR contributor to the republican campaign, and the president of Diebold was quoted promising he'd deliver the election for george bush. He did.

Diebold Voting Machine Owner Committed To Give Votes To Bush in 2004

News From Underground: Diebold lobbyist gives Blackwell $10,000


I just figure everyone gets tired of hearing this shit over and over, so I just posted the most pertinent idea, but I rarely shoot off without knowing what I'm talking about.

*edit- it's important to note that Blackwell refused to show up for court to answer fraud charges, and as far as I know, they changed the laws to protect him from testifying.

It's also important to note that EVERY exit poll had Kerry winning safely. This is the first time in Ohio history that the exit polls have been wrong. Yeah fucking right.

 

[DC_DEEP]

I had a brief chat with a woman at the polling place where I voted in 2004 (where my "provisional ballot" that I had to use because my address had changed was not counted) who told me that the Diebold electronic voting machines had arrived registering votes for bush. She also told me that they couldn't be worked on by anyone other than Diebold technicians.

Sorry folks, no checks and balances here- only checks. Our elections are completely screwed.

LOL Oh fuck, I SURE HOPE THEY USE THE EXACT SAME MACHINES in a couple of weeks. Would it not just be THE SHIT if bush was not even on the ballot, but the "pre-programmed" machines tallied votes for him anyway?????

 

[dong20]

I'm getting the point that you like to play devil's advocate, but sometimes that means you're representing the devil.

I never seek to represent anyone but myself. But suggesting that Diebold (for example) don't want just anyone to tinker with their kit means it's bent is quite a leap. Many manufacturers don't like it, car makers for example don't like their 'black boxes' to be re-programmed. Does that mean they contain a secret means of tracking their drivers movements, reporting speeding etc etc? :biggrin1:

No, there's NO possibility that it's an irrational fear, which you would know if you've been reading my rants about Ohio politics this year. Since it seems you haven't, I'll recap:

I read some, yes but they demand a degree of familiarity that only a resident or avid politico watcher would have. I don't dispute that such systems are open to abuse, of course they are. My comment was really that all systems involving people are open to abuse and electronic systems are only as good as those who design them and their software.

I'm not averse to the technology per se and suggesting that a blanket rejection would be irrational. I don't keep my money under the bed anymore, that's not to say I have 100% confidence in banking computers. After a 2 month battle to reverse a £1000 error by them (which was resolved today :biggrin1 I'd have good reason not to. It's just I trust them more than I trust leaving it lying around unprotected.

Basically, electoral fraud or any fraud for that matter is going to happen whenever and wherever people are involved in a process, whatever that process may be. We have confidence in the traditional voting system because it's what we know best. That breeds complacence and just perhaps false trust.

I just figure everyone gets tired of hearing this shit over and over, so I just posted the most pertinent idea, but I rarely shoot off without knowing what I'm talking about.

I'm not suggesting that but just because you (or I) believe something doesn't make it so (or not so) or a Diebold/Bush conspiracy. Based on 'evidence' millions think 9/11 was also a Bush lead conspiracy and based on 'evidence' millions don't; both groups can't be right can they.

It's also important to note that EVERY exit poll had Kerry winning safely. This is the first time in Ohio history that the exit polls have been wrong. Yeah fucking right.

Similar thing happened in Zambia in September this year, Sata was ahead in polls but Mwanawasa was re-elected. This lead to riots in Lusaka. That election wasn't rigged (significantly, anyway ) though if it was a fix Zambia is better off without Sata who models many of his views and policies on those of Mugabe, as well as being bonkers, much like Mugabe actually.

Sorry, I digress. My point being that polls can only tell you so much, too often what you want to hear. You may be right, and as they say there's seldom smoke without fire but I'd suggest that using Ohio polling predictions being wrong for the first time as evidence of electronic vote rigging is supposition, bordering on superstition. MZ, I don't know what the solution will be but I'd lay odds that eventually it will have a plug on it.

 

[madame_zora]

LOL Oh fuck, I SURE HOPE THEY USE THE EXACT SAME MACHINES in a couple of weeks. Would it not just be THE SHIT if bush was not even on the ballot, but the "pre-programmed" machines tallied votes for him anyway?????

Haha, that would be a gas. The sad thing is- they ARE using the exact same machine, so you either get to vote on a machine that may or may not give your vote to the candidate you select, or vote on paper, and run the risk of your vote not being counted at all.

As a point of interest, Dilznick sent me this list of the most/least dangerous cities in the US, it's worth noting that all six major Ohio cities rank in the top 50 most dangerous! Cleveland, Youngstown, Cincinnati, Dayton, Toledo, and Columbus are all there- wonder why we're so angry? YOU try living with our collapsed economy and corrupt political system. Whatever you've got, we've probably got more of it.

The most, least dangerous U.S. cities - Yahoo! News

 

[dong20]

I've always wondered why the election system had to be altered to these hi-tech toys. Punch cards, now fully-electronic touch-screen computers, and similar, they may have their advantages and cut the costs of paying numerous persons to count X'es, but it's turned out that even the most user-friendly input masks confuse a lot of people. Intentions of manipulating existent or not, the likeliness of making mistakes in the process of handling these machines increases the risk that the actual vote and the desired vote put in by the voter are different.

Really, wouldn't a black pen and paper be enough?

Yes, perhaps, but times change, and people will make mistakes with whatever technology they're presented with. Did you ever type your PIN wrong, or dial a wrong number? Of course, does that mean we should all surrender our ATM cards and cellphones?

A little input. I have a friend, a guy who is a German immigrant. He moved here over 20 years ago, so I won't vouch for the actuality of this, but he told me it was usual for his voting there to mark his paper ballot with pencil. Now talk about possibilities to manipulate an election.

I seem to recall that happening here in the UK also, but that was back in the days when everyone was honest so it was cool.:tongue: :wink:

 

[madame_zora]

Dong, I'm starting to wonder why I post here at all anymore. I was trying to talk about specific things that are happening here in our country that our people should really be aware of, but everything I or anyone else try to do to raise awareness gets sidetracked into hypothetical "what ifs" that have nothing to do with our reality. So your elections aren't rigged- that's great. Did you read any of the links I took the time to post? Ours are.

If our citizens don't get outraged about OUR rigged elections, they will continue. No reason why that should bother you, it isn't your country. It bothers the fuck out of me, and it bothers me even more that AMERICANS aren't doing their homework. I try to make it easy to follow along by posting these threads, and I'd really prefer you not sidetrack everything I write unless you are willing to do an equal amount of research. Then again, you're free to post whatever you want, I just hope the point doesn't get lost for those who desperately need to hear it.

DC_DEEP, JustAsking, Lex, myself and a few others care very much about our political climate and are trying to publicise things often not brought to the forefront. This is more than a way to pass time or exercise wit for us, hope you understand.

 

[dong20]

..... YOU try living with our collapsed economy and corrupt political system. Whatever you've got, we've probably got more of it.

Or, in the case of the economy, rather less of it.

A politician once said, I'm told : "God give me health and strength, I'll steal the rest." :tongue: