Electronic Voting Machines: Can They be Trusted?!?

DC_DEEP

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Many manufacturers don't like it, car makers for example don't like their 'black boxes' to be re-programmed. Does that mean they contain a secret means of tracking their drivers movements, reporting speeding etc etc? :biggrin1:
Um, yes, Dong, I actually do have it on good authority that those built-in gps/registration/blackbox devices are doing exactly that. Here in this country, when you rent a car, they charge exceptionally high premiums if you cross state lines. If you rent, claiming in-state travel only, and their blackbox says otherwise, it gets a bit sticky. That's no accident. Passage of legislation permitting the much-discussed "national ID" in this country will take that to unprecendented levels.
<...>After a 2 month battle to reverse a £1000 error by them (which was resolved today :biggrin1:) I'd have good reason not to. It's just I trust them more than I trust leaving it lying around unprotected.
I believe they owe you damages for that, my friend. I'm not generally terribly litigious, but these motherfuckers need to learn several lessons, including "you can't fuck with people at random, without suffering the consequences. If you fuck up, you are responsible. If you fuck up bad, you need to rectify more than just 'so sorry, I was wrong.' "
I'm not suggesting that but just because you (or I) believe something doesn't make it so (or not so) or a Diebold/Bush conspiracy. Based on 'evidence' millions think 9/11 was also a Bush lead conspiracy and based on 'evidence' millions don't; both groups can't be right can they.
I don't believe the "bush/9-11" conspiracy either, but the bastard certainly did latch on to the tragedy once it occurred, anyone who denies that is just a moron. However, collusion is not necessarily a conspiracy, either. When enough dollars and legislation are on the table, I doubt Diebold will turn down the opportunity.
 

madame_zora

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I never seek to represent anyone but myself. But suggesting that Diebold (for example) don't want just anyone to tinker with their kit means it's bent is quite a leap. Many manufacturers don't like it, car makers for example don't like their 'black boxes' to be re-programmed. Does that mean they contain a secret means of tracking their drivers movements, reporting speeding etc etc? :biggrin1:

No, you missed the entire point. Diebold makes the machines, Diebold contributes to the Republicans, Ken Blackwell, a known crooked republican was the overseer of the election (also took money from Diebold), Diebold's owner promised to "deliver the election for bush" in his own words, the machines registered votes for bush, right out of the box, and Ohio had the FIRST AND ONLY ELECTION IN RECORDED HISTORY that went against the exit polls! Do you get what I'm saying YET? THEN Ken Blackwell refused to testify on a committee investigated voter irregularities, so the laws were fucking changed to protect him! If you don't see a problem, then I'm glad you're over there.

I posted all those links so you'd know I wasn't making this stuff up. I can post thousands more if you'd like to read more, but this is how it is.

I read some, yes but they demand a degree of familiarity that only a resident or avid politico watcher would have. I don't dispute that such systems are open to abuse, of course they are. My comment was really that all systems involving people are open to abuse and electronic systems are only as good as those who design them and their software.

Sure, all system are open to abuse. WE have an election in one week, WE are talking about things people need to hear RIGHT NOW.

I'm not averse to the technology per se and suggesting that a blanket rejection would be irrational. I don't keep my money under the bed anymore, that's not to say I have 100% confidence in banking computers. After a 2 month battle to reverse a £1000 error by them (which was resolved today :biggrin1:) I'd have good reason not to. It's just I trust them more than I trust leaving it lying around unprotected.

I'm certainly not adverse to technology either, just technology without a paper trail. I want us to get a receipt for our vote, and to be able to have them verified by paper if there's a recount called, which the current machines won't do. It wouldn't have been more expensive to build them that way, they were intended to be impossible to monitor in any way. THAT'S my complaint. The owner bragging about "delivering the election for bush" was just shoving it right in our faces.

Basically, electoral fraud or any fraud for that matter is going to happen whenever and wherever people are involved in a process, whatever that process may be. We have confidence in the traditional voting system because it's what we know best. That breeds complacence and just perhaps false trust.

Yep, false trust alright. That's what happens when we get too many devil's advocates and no one really honing in on reality. We have an extremely obvious case of fraud here, as well as Florida. If Americans don't face reality, the world will pay.

I'm not suggesting that but just because you (or I) believe something doesn't make it so (or not so) or a Diebold/Bush conspiracy. Based on 'evidence' millions think 9/11 was also a Bush lead conspiracy and based on 'evidence' millions don't; both groups can't be right can they.

Oy vey. No, two conflicting arguments can't both be right. That's a whole different, unrelated argument. I am only talking about this one thing, Diebold machines, for which there is a literal avalanche of evidence. I want Americans to know what they're voting on.

Similar thing happened in Zambia in September this year, Sata was ahead in polls but Mwanawasa was re-elected. This lead to riots in Lusaka. That election wasn't rigged (significantly, anyway :rolleyes:) though if it was a fix Zambia is better off without Sata who models many of his views and policies on those of Mugabe, as well as being bonkers, much like Mugabe actually.

Okay, well that was entirely pointless. YOU don't know if it was rigged or not, but it wasn't even in America! It has nothing to do with Diebold, and whether you like one better than the other doesn't have shit to do with the election being rigged. You weren't here for the screaming in the streets in Dayton. No, nothing close to a riot, but let that shit happen again and see how it goes.

Sorry, I digress. My point being that polls can only tell you so much, too often what you want to hear. You may be right, and as they say there's seldom smoke without fire but I'd suggest that using Ohio polling predictions being wrong for the first time as evidence of electronic vote rigging is supposition, bordering on superstition. MZ, I don't know what the solution will be but I'd lay odds that eventually it will have a plug on it.

Polls have set an historical precedent of perfect accuracy in this state, what the HELL are you talking about? It matters one HELL of a lot that this was the first and only one in history to go against the exit polls. I've mentioned this now three times, please understand- I'm angry about something VERY real! Your last sentence I'm sure will resonate with most Americans, even the politically active ones, but if you read your own sentence very carefully, you'll notice a) no solution offered, and b) no one responsible for carrying it out. "It will have a plug in it"? Really? How, and by whom?
 

dong20

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Dong, I'm starting to wonder why I post here at all anymore. I was trying to talk about specific things that are happening here in our country that our people should really be aware of, but everything I or anyone else try to do to raise awareness gets sidetracked into hypothetical "what ifs" that have nothing to do with our reality. So your elections aren't rigged- that's great. Did you read any of the links I took the time to post? Ours are.

I wonder that all the time (why I do I post I mean). Yes, I did, you see a conspiracy and proof of rigged elections. I see dishonesty, greed and opportunity for personal patronage and evidence of exploiting what we all know to be a flawed system. What you linked to is reported news, it's interesting and often compelling but ultimately it's not proof of anything. If I believed everything I read online or in the media (or here) then lunar landings were fake and a giant leap for mankind, 9/11 was an inside job and a terrible terrorist atrocity and there's aliens walking among us yet we're all alone in the universe.

I didn't say our elections aren't flawed, where did I say that? But flawed isn't rigged. I said there is scope for fraud in any electoral system and sure, it occurs, here in the UK as it does in the US. The question is, is it on such a massive and systematic scale as to undermine the entire democratic process? I doubt it but I'm open to persuasion. Convince me.

If our citizens don't get outraged about OUR rigged elections, they will continue. No reason why that should bother you, it isn't your country. It bothers the fuck out of me, and it bothers me even more that AMERICANS aren't doing their homework. I try to make it easy to follow along by posting these threads, and I'd really prefer you not sidetrack everything I write unless you are willing to do an equal amount of research. Then again, you're free to post whatever you want, I just hope the point doesn't get lost for those who desperately need to hear it.

That's not true and it does bother me, if for no other reason that this: For better or worse the US has a significant impact on my life, through it's geo-politcal power and influence on UK politics. So suggesting I don't give a rats about what happens there is an insult to my intelligence and I don't know how you came to that conclusion. To be fair, usually the shoe is on the other foot when it comes to US intransigence in world affairs.

I'm not sure what I'm sidetracking, (Zambia? well damn, you know they have electoral fraud also and for the first time tried electronic systems in the last elections to reduce it, or is this just about US voting machines and systems and associated Republican dirty dealing? Pardon my sarcasm.:tongue:)

DC_DEEP, JustAsking, Lex, myself and a few others care very much about our political climate and are trying to publicise things often not brought to the forefront. This is more than a way to pass time or exercise wit for us, hope you understand.

I do understand your point, essentially: gullable, ill educated, insular and self absorbed Americans are being hoodwinked, denied their democratic and constitutional rights and deceived by evil big business with a radical right wing agenda acting in colusion with corrupt politicians. Trust me, I get it and it's not unique to America, like most things really.

But if this was meant to be about only the narrow confines of the Diebold conspiracy then the OP should have been clearer in it's premise. I thought this was about whether electronic voting machines/systems can be trusted in general, which I believe they can, it's the people running and designing them that can't. I didn't read a geographical or philopsophical requirement into it, my mistake.
 

dong20

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Um, yes, Dong, I actually do have it on good authority that those built-in gps/registration/blackbox devices are doing exactly that. Here in this country, when you rent a car, they charge exceptionally high premiums if you cross state lines. If you rent, claiming in-state travel only, and their blackbox says otherwise, it gets a bit sticky. That's no accident. Passage of legislation permitting the much-discussed "national ID" in this country will take that to unprecendented levels.

I also heard about those systems or similar ones that cater for specific markets but I was talking about mainstream car sales. Don't get me wrong I think it's probably only a matter of time but Mercedes for example not wanting Joes auto repair to change the programming on a EMU to improve performance isn't proof of a massive conspiracy to track my every movement! YET.:eek:

I believe they owe you damages for that, my friend. I'm not generally terribly litigious, but these motherfuckers need to learn several lessons, including "you can't fuck with people at random, without suffering the consequences. If you fuck up, you are responsible. If you fuck up bad, you need to rectify more than just 'so sorry, I was wrong.'

I waited and played nice untill I got my money back. Now comes the complaint letters, with itemised phone call sheets and so on, recorded phone calls etc. I doubt it will get me any cash but they will need to waste a lot of their own going through the process, it's almost as good.:biggrin1:

On Dielbold: I'm not saying he is a saint, far from it but suspicion isn't proof. Once it becomes so then whining about lack of due process becomes disengenuous. That's a general comment, not aimed at you.
 

dong20

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No, you missed the entire point. Diebold makes the machines, Diebold contributes to the Republicans, Ken Blackwell, a known crooked republican was the overseer of the election (also took money from Diebold), Diebold's owner promised to "deliver the election for bush" in his own words, the machines registered votes for bush, right out of the box, and Ohio had the FIRST AND ONLY ELECTION IN RECORDED HISTORY that went against the exit polls! Do you get what I'm saying YET? THEN Ken Blackwell refused to testify on a committee investigated voter irregularities, so the laws were fucking changed to protect him! If you don't see a problem, then I'm glad you're over there.

No I believe I got your point. I see the dots but while they join up neatly for you I need a little more convincing, I'm not saying a lot just a little more than you. But of course not being American, I couldn't understand. I also see the problem, but to me you jumped from Accusation to Conviction without Burden of proof.

I posted all those links so you'd know I wasn't making this stuff up. I can post thousands more if you'd like to read more, but this is how it is.

Did I say you made it up. As I said a lot of it is convincing just not completely convincing, from this distance anyway. But when you're as frustrated with the process as you seem to be that sentiment probably doesn't help.

I'm certainly not adverse to technology either, just technology without a paper trail. I want us to get a receipt for our vote, and to be able to have them verified by paper if there's a recount called, which the current machines won't do. It wouldn't have been more expensive to build them that way, they were intended to be impossible to monitor in any way. THAT'S my complaint. The owner bragging about "delivering the election for bush" was just shoving it right in our faces.

I do agree that a receipt (even an optional one) would be a good thing. It's a defintite design flaw.

Yep, false trust alright. That's what happens when we get too many devil's advocates and no one really honing in on reality. We have an extremely obvious case of fraud here, as well as Florida. If Americans don't face reality, the world will pay.

Well yes, but it's reality as you see it. That doesn't make it reality as I or others necessarily see it. It's obviously fraud to you, but that doesn't make it fraud. I'm not in possession of all the facts so how can I be categorical, and due respect neither are you.

Oy vey. No, two conflicting arguments can't both be right. That's a whole different, unrelated argument. I am only talking about this one thing, Diebold machines, for which there is a literal avalanche of evidence. I want Americans to know what they're voting on.

Yes, I was being tangential, sorry but I was merely trying make a point that just because it's in the media doesn't make it so. The media have an agenda too remember.

Okay, well that was entirely pointless. YOU don't know if it was rigged or not, but it wasn't even in America! It has nothing to do with Diebold, and whether you like one better than the other doesn't have shit to do with the election being rigged. You weren't here for the screaming in the streets in Dayton. No, nothing close to a riot, but let that shit happen again and see how it goes.

No, not for sure, but better than you I'd wager having been there in the run up and knowing some of those involved. Much as you would know about the US situation better than me of course, which I don't dispute.

But again with the America centric view, I get it (now) that your angle here is solely on Diebold but I was speaking more generally, about related events occuring in the other 95% of the planet. I have an interest beyond my own back yard. But I'm happy to stay in yours for a while.

Polls have set an historical precedent of perfect accuracy in this state, what the HELL are you talking about? It matters one HELL of a lot that this was the first and only one in history to go against the exit polls. I've mentioned this now three times, please understand- I'm angry about something VERY real!

I was talking about polls not being infallible, which they're not. Nothing more. Is it significant that this poll didn't reflect the result? Yes. Is it suspicious that it coincided with the machine being used? Probably. Is it proof the election was rigged? No.

Your last sentence I'm sure will resonate with most Americans, even the politically active ones, but if you read your own sentence very carefully, you'll notice a) no solution offered, and b) no one responsible for carrying it out. "It will have a plug in it"? Really? How, and by whom?

No, here you missed my point; by 'plug' I meant a power plug not a political one. As in eventually, I'm sure voting sytems will go electronic. I can't be more specific in terms of how and who.

Pesky linguistic pond.:rolleyes:
 

ClaireTalon

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Yes, perhaps, but times change, and people will make mistakes with whatever technology they're presented with. Did you ever type your PIN wrong, or dial a wrong number? Of course, does that mean we should all surrender our ATM cards and cellphones?

No, because ATM cards and cell phones are redundant technologies. If I don't like ATM's, I can still go to the bank branch and get cash, and if I don't have a cell phone, I can use phone boxes. On the other hand, at voting machines I'm forced to use them, and can't switch to the good ol' pen & paper.

Clearly, the disadvantages of these technologies make it more reasonable to make a small move back in time.

I seem to recall that happening here in the UK also, but that was back in the days when everyone was honest so it was cool.:tongue: :wink:

According to my man, this was in 1983. And it was a B2 or B3 pencil.
 

Jan039

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Votecomputers are NOT save. On this time its a hot item here in the netherlands. At 22 nov we have to vote, and since a few years we do that with votecomputers, but they found out that those computers are not save.
On the tv we saw thats its easy to manipulate those computers, and they are sending a signal out, so with special equipment,someone else can see what you voted.
 

dong20

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No, because ATM cards and cell phones are redundant technologies. If I don't like ATM's, I can still go to the bank branch and get cash, and if I don't have a cell phone, I can use phone boxes. On the other hand, at voting machines I'm forced to use them, and can't switch to the good ol' pen & paper.

I know they and that wasn't really what I meant. It was just an example to illustrate the way we come to accept and depend on technologies that we may have initially resisted, felt were faddish or considered to be unecessarily risky or complex. I'm probably biased as I work in the tech industry and I so maybe I see the risks from a slightly different perspective.

Clearly, the disadvantages of these technologies make it more reasonable to make a small move back in time.

Voting machines? Sure they have disadvantages but I'd venture like the fear that ATMs would give our money to anyone those fears are more imagined than real. I just don't see a fundemental problem with the technology itself when used correctly only the possible risk of fraud and abuse in the programming and agenda behind it, this is I assume what you're referring to. On that I quite agree.

To remain on the parallels I could have the same fear that withdrawing &#163;50 from an ATM would debit &#163;60 and hope I don't check my statements closely. Or I got 'billed' for three mins when I called for two, checking my call log a month later would I remember?

According to my man, this was in 1983. And it was a B2 or B3 pencil.

Wow, I'm impressed in a geeky kinda way, that he can remember the type of pencil. 2B or 3B, nice & soft, all the easier to erase and change or is that retrospective paranoia? :tongue:
 

JustAsking

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For those of you who think electronic voting machines from Diebold are reliable please watch the HBO special called "Hacking Democracy". It aired for the first time last night. I imagine there are additional air times.
 

ClaireTalon

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Lol, actually the B2/B3 was an estimation from my side, he just said it was "a very black" pencil. and HB/B ones usually are more grey, whereas B2+ are black. The point still is, voting with a pencil was never something I'd have considered being practiced. Shouldn't a ballot be marked with permanent ink?

I'm also working in the tech industry, however only peripherally linked to computer technology, could say I'm at home in the analog world. Could also say that I never completely trust computers, and still do a lot of work on paper before I feed it into one. That's why I say that as long as the risks of electronic voting haven't been researched in depth, and the weaknesses of these machines have been evaluated and eliminated, we should rely on a widely-tested, cheap and reliable system: paper and pens.

I'm not saying all electronic voting machines should be trashed completely. They should be road-tested more for weaknesses before elections are run completely on them, road-tested also regarding their user-friendliness. One will never be able to create an interface that's understandable for just anyone, but there is still a number of people who have trouble using even the seemingly most simple design.
 

b.c.

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No, you missed the entire point. Diebold makes the machines, Diebold contributes to the Republicans, Ken Blackwell, a known crooked republican was the overseer of the election (also took money from Diebold), Diebold's owner promised to "deliver the election for bush" in his own words, the machines registered votes for bush, right out of the box, and Ohio had the FIRST AND ONLY ELECTION IN RECORDED HISTORY that went against the exit polls! Do you get what I'm saying YET? THEN Ken Blackwell refused to testify on a committee investigated voter irregularities, so the laws were fucking changed to protect him! If you don't see a problem, then I'm glad you're over there.

Can you spell b-a-n-a-n-a
r-e-p-u-b-l-i-c ?
 

D_Martin van Burden

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I'm the Democratic judge for the current election. I learned about a new voting system that Lexington, Kentucky had rolled out in last year's primaries called the eSlate. Pretty cool. I don't know if it's a Diebold device or not, but it runs on an accessible selection system. A select dial enables voters to highlight and select candidates. There are a minimalistic few buttons: Prev and Next pages, a ubiquitous Enter button and the Select dial.

Yeah, I was reading about this in Time magazine. I guess I'm more distrustful of the corporation than the technology itself. Then again, most states use electronic devices of some measure. I think it was Montana or one of the other western states to feature a shitload of mixed voting devices, paper and non-paper.