Embarassed Yank

D_Tim McGnaw

Account Disabled
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Posts
5,420
Media
0
Likes
110
Points
133
Article 48: of the Lisbon treaty states that ‘with just intergovernmental agreement, with no need of going back to the citizens anywhere, they can make any change to this constitutional document, adding any new powers, without having to revisit an electorate anywhere.’ Thus the public and the people of Ireland, or anywhere else in Europe will never again need to embarrass ourselves by voting incorrectly. The only people required, or able, to vote to change the treaties are the unelected European council.


The Lisbon treaty has 7 articles, not 48. The clause you quote is garbage, I'm currently sitting next to someone involved in writing and negotiating the Lisbon treaty who laughed at this quote and said I quote "That guy needs to read the actual Lisbon Treaty not some crap he picked up off the internet." :biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1:

Seriously there's no need to make things up, there are some real problems with the EU imaginary ones are not necessary.

Obvioulsy, You are Irish so would have a better understanding naturally. However me overlooking the whole situation it was apparent that this was not strictly democratic.

Oh well then if you think it was undemocratic, millions of Irish voter stand corrected. :rolleyes:





The fact the broadcasting commission of Ireland, in just this one referendum that there was no need to give equal airtime to both sides, which let to 70 percent of airtime taken by the 'yes' camp.
Which is breaking the law on broadcasting standards.

Another lie! :biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1: You're just making things up, for a start I doubt you know anything about Irish broadcasting standards regulations with regard to political broadcasts, and the fact that you've never heard of the Referendum Commission rather suggests you're just pulling things out your butt. I can't discuss this with you if you're just going to make things up. :tongue:
 
Last edited:

TurkeyWithaSunburn

Legendary Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Posts
3,589
Media
25
Likes
1,224
Points
608
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male


Article 48: of the Lisbon treaty states that ‘with just intergovernmental agreement, with no need of going back to the citizens anywhere, they can make any change to this constitutional document, adding any new powers, without having to revisit an electorate anywhere.’ Thus the public and the people of Ireland, or anywhere else in Europe will never again need to embarrass ourselves by voting incorrectly. The only people required, or able, to vote to change the treaties are the unelected European council.

Lisbon vote no: a second referendum? How democratic

If you're gonna copy and paste parts of articles at least post the source of the articles :rolleyes:
 

D_Tim McGnaw

Account Disabled
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Posts
5,420
Media
0
Likes
110
Points
133
Lisbon vote no: a second referendum? How democratic

If you're gonna copy and paste parts of articles at least post the source of the articles :rolleyes:

The article's a load anyway x704, so it's academic where he got that quote from. Like my man in the know says "read the Lisbon treaty not some crap he picked up off the internet". Just goes to show you can't trust every source that happens to come up on a google search. :wink:
 

Drifterwood

Superior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Posts
18,678
Media
0
Likes
2,812
Points
333
Location
Greece
Sorry but I think that comment was un-called for. Farage has given up so much to try to restore the freedom of Europe and the UK. He even almost died last week when his plane crashed campaigining.

He has free speech, so do I.

He was trying to pull a cupid stunt, the pilot should sue him and the health and safety executive prosecute him. Perhaps not, it wouldn't be in the public interest to give him the platform.

The man embarasses me - sorry.
 

TurkeyWithaSunburn

Legendary Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Posts
3,589
Media
25
Likes
1,224
Points
608
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
The article's a load anyway x704, so it's academic where he got that quote from. Like my man in the know says "read the Lisbon treaty not some crap he picked up off the internet". Just goes to show you can't trust every source that happens to come up on a google search. :wink:
Not if he's plagiarizing :tongue:
 
7

798686

Guest
I havnt seen him in person, only on the telly. First off, Im pro Eu. Very pro EU by british standards. But i rather like Farage. I saw him being interviewed after the Irish no vote and he had some very pithy things to say about Eu treaties being steamrollered through without the consent of the people. I entirely agreed. I really hate politicians who refuse to answer an argument but instead attack the man, and just about every party has been systematically ridiculing UKIP and the other one, BNP. The conservatives do so because UKIP and BNP supporters would be natural conservatives were it not for the existence of these other parties. Others attacked the man because the points he was making were unanswerable. The Lisbon treaty was forced through against the wishes of the european populations. Ireland is generally pro-EU, but it was defeated and they had to play good cop/bad cop to get them to agree. France refused it at a referendum, so the French government changed the law to avoid having a referendum. Cameron refused to support the idea of having a referendum in the UK until it was too late.(at which point he jumped on the band waggon)

I approve of the EU. I do not approve of forcing through new treaties which people do not agree with. I think it can only work by the consent of those who are part of it.

So anyway, when I have seen him in action he has addressed the isues, whereas typically other politicians around him spent their time attacking him and not answering. A sure sign he was right and they wrong.

Id have to say he is rather like Winston Churchill in his determination to achieve a goal and an inclination to break conventions to do it. Refreshing compared to most of the look alike politicians we see. Churchill also thought we should not be part of the EU. They would probably have got on.

Also, I see little prospect of it, but parliament would be a better place were he in it. We could do with a BNP and a few more Greens too. These people exist with parties supporting them bcause fundamentally the have a point which the big parties find it easier to pretend does not exist. Having them hanging about the place might encourage them to do something.

Incidentall, while were talking about who should be in parliament, although religion is not an issue in british politics, Church of England Bishops have seats ex-officio in the house of Lords. Cant remember if they still have voting rights. Anyone?
Good post, Dandy. :smile:
 

alx

Sexy Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2010
Posts
1,024
Media
0
Likes
60
Points
73
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
The Lisbon treaty has 7 articles, not 48. The clause you quote is garbage, I'm currently sitting next to someone involved in writing and negotiating the Lisbon treaty who laughed at this quote and said I quote "That guy needs to read the actual Lisbon Treaty not some crap he picked up off the internet." :biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1:

Seriously there's no need to make things up, there are some real problems with the EU imaginary ones are not necessary.



Oh well then if you think it was undemocratic, millions of Irish voter stand corrected. :rolleyes:







Another lie! :biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1: You're just making things up, for a start I doubt you know anything about Irish broadcasting standards regulations with regard to political broadcasts, and the fact that you've never heard of the Referendum Commission rather suggests you're just pulling things out your butt. I can't discuss this with you if you're just going to make things up. :tongue:

I did not say there were 48 articles, I said it was article 48. Which is different.

As for making things up, well If thats your view then so be it. Who am I to tell you what to believe.
Either Your mate is chatting crap, or I've been sold a Fake copy. As mine is vol 51 containing 361 pages.

The lisbon Treaty Is in two parts, The first is 'The treaty on the european union'
This contains 55 articles, hence why I metioned the clause in article 48.

The second part is 'The treaty on the functioning of the european union'
This contains 358 articles.

Following these there are 37 protocols.

Yes that Article 48 was quickly taken from a website, Obviously this is not the actual article itself, more of a quick summary of the article.
If it really does mean that much to you I could write out the whole 10 Paragraphs of the actual text.
However I honestly did not think that LPSG was that bothered nor intrested in this information, and frankly seems OTT.

There is no getting away from the fact that this is a self-amending clause.

BTW Im not blaming the Irish voters, it was bound to happen. the EU has massive inflence.


Lisbon vote no: a second referendum? How democratic

If you're gonna copy and paste parts of articles at least post the source of the articles :rolleyes:

The article's a load anyway x704, so it's academic where he got that quote from. Like my man in the know says "read the Lisbon treaty not some crap he picked up off the internet". Just goes to show you can't trust every source that happens to come up on a google search. :wink:

Yes this was where I got the summary from, I did not know that LPSG was going to be so critising regarding not sourcing a small bit of text.
You guys are more harsh than my lecturers when it comes to sourcing your info.
In fact I thought that sourcing the info, or even writing out the actual article would simply get me nothing more than "you noob" replys.

Ok, now that i have pointed out the fact that yes there is such a thing as the self-amending clause of article 48, will you bother to actually enlighten yourselfs with this 'new' knowledge.

He has free speech, so do I.

He was trying to pull a cupid stunt, the pilot should sue him and the health and safety executive prosecute him. Perhaps not, it wouldn't be in the public interest to give him the platform.

The man embarasses me - sorry.



Oh yes how very wrong of me, of course it was a stunt, a stunt that should have killed him.
I really do not think that he is the kind of man to kill himself for publicity.
You are talking about a man that at the age of 21 was diagnosed with testicular cancer, which spread to his stomach and lungs.

I can safely say that he cherishes life far too much to even consider crashing a plane.

Where does peoples intollerance come from, I really would like to know.
 
Last edited:

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Article 48: of the Lisbon treaty states that ‘with just intergovernmental agreement, with no need of going back to the citizens anywhere, they can make any change to this constitutional document, adding any new powers, without having to revisit an electorate anywhere.’ Thus the public and the people of Ireland, or anywhere else in Europe will never again need to embarrass ourselves by voting incorrectly. The only people required, or able, to vote to change the treaties are the unelected European council.

The above is my problem!

It does say

The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States
in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cmsUpload/cg00014.en07.pdf (section 56 amends article 48. The lisbon treaty is really a list of changes to other existing treaties)

though it also talks about adopting majority rather than unanimous voting for something (im not going to look up what the section referred to really is) provided all the national parliaments simply do not object within 6 months.
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Sorry Dandelion, but this -

isn't a true reflection of the situation, and I have to say that though critics of the EU and EU supporters with concerns about the current structure of the EU may well dislike the fact that Ireland voted yes in the end it has to be said that Irish people aren't idiots and nor are they children who can be bullied into voting for things they do not want. The first No vote sort of proves that. The leverage Ireland then had over the EU was enough to wring concessions and other agreements from it to make the Lisbon treaty palatable to the Irish electorate.
I dont mind they said yes and I dont mind they got the chance to improve the deal so they could accept it. They absolutely were threatened that if they did not accept it everyone would hate them and never ever give Ireland any concessions ever again (bad cop) and they got the concessions (good cop). What I mind is that everyone else didnt get this opportunity.
 
Last edited:

Victoria

Just Browsing
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Posts
52
Media
0
Likes
0
Points
91
Location
english suburbia
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Female
Are you aware of the reasons why the Irish electorate voted no? Are you aware for instance that a wealthy British businessman with Irish connections undertook a massive disinformation campaign about the Lisbon Treaty claiming a large variety of spurious horrors which would befall Ireland should it have voted yes?

Are you aware that Ireland negotiated a variety of exceptions and special clarifications of the Lisbon treaty after the no vote which were then presented to the people of Ireland who then democratically voted yes to the Lisbon treaty, their concerns having been addressed? Are you also aware of the inherent logic in your argument which claims that only the first referendum's no vote was democratic and the second following yes vote was somehow undemocratic? If the second vote was undemocratic in your estimation then I assure you the first was equally so since there was no discernible difference in the level of gravity which the Irish electorate was aware of in both cases


Your point about this phantom clause is frankly nonsense? Who are you suggesting is able to legally vitiate the entire Lisbon treaty? Member states? If so what is your quarrel with such a clause? :rolleyes:


Were you aware that UKIP's ill informed position on the Irish no vote was highly unwelcome and an embarrassment to the Irish people?

You've badgered on at length on the failings of the British political system , i'm curious though - what elevates the republic of Irelands political system above the uk's to such a dizzingly atmospheric height it's escaped your seemingly eagerly portioned out scrutiny?

it's really that perfect?:tongue:

I 'm curious - how do things work in the republic of Ireland politically ?
 

D_Tim McGnaw

Account Disabled
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Posts
5,420
Media
0
Likes
110
Points
133
I did not say there were 48 articles, I said it was article 48. Which is different.

As for making things up, well If thats your view then so be it. Who am I to tell you what to believe.
Either Your mate is chatting crap, or I've been sold a Fake copy. As mine is vol 51 containing 361 pages.

The lisbon Treaty Is in two parts, The first is 'The treaty on the european union'
This contains 55 articles, hence why I metioned the clause in article 48.

The second part is 'The treaty on the functioning of the european union'
This contains 358 articles.

Following these there are 37 protocols.

Yes that Article 48 was quickly taken from a website, Obviously this is not the actual article itself, more of a quick summary of the article.
If it really does mean that much to you I could write out the whole 10 Paragraphs of the actual text.
However I honestly did not think that LPSG was that bothered nor intrested in this information, and frankly seems OTT.

There is no getting away from the fact that this is a self-amending clause.

BTW Im not blaming the Irish voters, it was bound to happen. the EU has massive inflence.





Hey look I wouldn't even argue with you about this but my current boyf is one of the lawyers who wrote the thing, so guess what? I'll probably go with him on how the thing is structured. The Lisbon Treaty has seven articles. The bulk of it contains amendments to the Treaty on European Union (Article 1, paras 1 to 61) and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (formerly the Treaty establishing the European Community) (Article 2, paras 1 to 295). The TEU now has 55 articles and the TFEU has 358.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

Account Disabled
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Posts
5,420
Media
0
Likes
110
Points
133
You've badgered on at length on the failings of the British political system , i'm curious though - what elevates the republic of Irelands political system above the uk's to such a dizzingly atmospheric height it's escaped your seemingly eagerly portioned out scrutiny?

it's really that perfect?:tongue:

I 'm curious - how do things work in the republic of Ireland politically ?


Did I say it was perfect? :tongue: But there are a number of ways in which the political system here is more democratic, though frankly I would say most of the rest of the EU is more democratic than the UK so it's not a chauvinism. :wink:
 

Sergeant_Torpedo

Experimental Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2006
Posts
1,348
Media
0
Likes
23
Points
183
Location
UK
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Be under no illusions, when a people are denied a say in government and their consitutional rights can be altered and overriden then we are no longer living in a democracy. Give the prolls circus and bread (Britain's Got Talent, TV soccer, and pizza)and they will be satisfied, or so the Eurocracy think.
 

D_Harvey Schmeckel

Sexy Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Posts
549
Media
0
Likes
50
Points
163
I had written that after viewing Nigel Farage without the embellishments of the Gregory Brothers, I did not conclude as did alx that: This party is the only moral party that has common sense in the UK.
so he asked: And your reasons for this? Genuinely Interested.

Just one reason, although I could cite a great many horror stories from history in support: raw xenophobic hatemongering is a terrifying destructive force and anyone who openly expresses and encourages it is dangerous. Americans certainly have reason to be alarmed by this theme and tone in our political discourse (see Arizona), and I was shocked by Farage's display.
 
Last edited:

Victoria

Just Browsing
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Posts
52
Media
0
Likes
0
Points
91
Location
english suburbia
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Female
Did I say it was perfect? :tongue: But there are a number of ways in which the political system here is more democratic, though frankly I would say most of the rest of the EU is more democratic than the UK so it's not a chauvinism. :wink:

I want specifics ... not a whimsically toned quick reply .:rolleyes:

The different parties there , their political leanings ect?
 

TurkeyWithaSunburn

Legendary Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Posts
3,589
Media
25
Likes
1,224
Points
608
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
Yes this was where I got the summary from, I did not know that LPSG was going to be so critising regarding not sourcing a small bit of text.
You guys are more harsh than my lecturers when it comes to sourcing your info.
In fact I thought that sourcing the info, or even writing out the actual article would simply get me nothing more than "you noob" replys.

It comes down to using someone else's words as your own vs actually stating your own opinion in your own words.

If we are more harsh than your professors are, find new professors! If you created some stellar paragraph making a point who's to say they won't pass it off as their own, garnering widespread acclaim etc.
 

D_Tim McGnaw

Account Disabled
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Posts
5,420
Media
0
Likes
110
Points
133
I want specifics ... not a whimsically toned quick reply .:rolleyes:

The different parties there , their political leanings ect?


OK sorry didn't have a lot of time this morning. Erm well Irish politics has been dominated by one of two Republican/Nationalist right of centre parties both of which are branches of the Old Sinn Fein which fought the war of independence during the 1920's. After the Free State treaty was negotiated by Michael Collins on behalf of an essentially free country half his party repudiated the deal with Britain because it fell short of full independence and there was a brief but bloody civil war which the Free Staters won, minus Michael Collins who was ambushed down in Cork and killed.

The Free Staters became the Cumann na nGaedhael party, which later absorbed a nascent Irish fascist Brown-Shirt movement. The Free Staters dominated the early Daíl ("parliament"). In 1933 they became Fine Gael which is the name they still go by.

The late thirties saw the rise of the defeated party from the civil war which became Fíanna Fáil under the another icon of Irish republicanism Éamon de Valera. It was under Fíanna Fáil that the republic was finally declared in the 1940's.


Both of these parties as I say have been more or less right wing, at times extremely and other less so, and both are Nationalists and Republican. Both are Populist also. The major differences between them are subtle and voters for them tend to be tribal based on where you live in the country, and/or which of them your relatives supported during the Civil War. There's a class element to this tribalism too, with Fine Gael being traditionally a more middle class party especially in the countryside where farmers with larger holdings and often Protestant Republicans supported them. Fíanna Fáil have a more working class poor support base.

In addition to these two behemoths is the Irish Labour party (also stridently republican as are all Irish political parties really) which is actually older than both the big Nationalist parties. At one time it was fairly large and enjoyed a more nationwide support but over time Fíanna Fáil has robbed a lot of its working class vote especially outside Dublin, Dublin being where most of the Labour party's support is these days.

Labour used to be a socialist party in the same style as its British counterpart, but these days it's more of a Social Democrat party with a largely middle to upper middle class urban support base.

There have been a variety of smaller parties in the last 80 years or so. The thing to remember is that we have Single Transferable Vote proportional representation here which means that constituencies have multiple seats meaning that in most cases each constituency tends to have a mix of parties represented in the Dáil.

The Irish constitution after the manner of the American constitution is a single document which structures how this country functions. All changes to the constitution must be put to a vote in a referendum and the highest constitutional court in the country is the Supreme Court. The Dáil is bicameral, being split in to the Dáil and the Senate or an Seanad Éireann, the latter is supposed to be the upper house while the Dáil is the primary legislature where the Executive is etc.

There is of course also a President who is head of state, but apart from signing laws and some glad handing the President has very little power.


Essentially the system here means that TD's (Teachta Dala or MP's to you) of all parties are extremely held to their support at a local level, in very few other countries is the axiom that all politics is local more true than it is here. This can mean that coherent characteristics or policy differences between parties are very difficult to discern and you have to know your local TD's and how what they think and how they vote in the Dáil fairly well to know if you want to vote for them.

Voting in elections can be highly tactical and since parties field multiple candidates within constituencies in order to maximise the number of seats they get there's plenty of sometimes virulent competition even between candidates of the same party. It also means that TDs elected in marginal seats can have disproportionate power within the government and sometimes will be given Ministries which they then use to feather their nests within their own constituency.

It also means that whips have only fairly limited control over backbenchers from seats with strong majorities which leads to the whip being withdrawn from them, there are often a handful of "Independent Fíanna Fáil" TDs and often a quite a few independent TD's in general.

The voting system means that this country almost always has a coalition government. Most frequently Fíanna Fáil +, sometimes these coalitions can be highly heterogeneous and sometimes very unified, it depends on how the votes are cast and who can negotiate a viable government. The one thing which is always a given is that Fíanna Fáil and Fine Gael will never be in government together because of the tribalism which makes them despise one another. Which ever of these two gets in to government you're guaranteed that a right of centre party will be the largest party in the coalition, with the largest number of Ministers and whose leader will be Taoiseach (Prime Minister). The dynamics of coalition government make politics here very febrile and tense at times and at other times extremely stable as has been the case for the last 15 years or so.

Whatever the drawbacks of coalition the electorate here now exactly what they're doing when they hit the voting booths and they vote coalitions in to government on the basis that it's always good to have one of the two big parties be held to account by one or more of the smaller parties and independent TD's.

When I first moved here they'd only a few years earlier had a referendum to change the constitution to legalise Divorce (1996), and not long before that decriminalised Homosexuality (1993), and abortion still isn't legal here except in extreme circumstances where the life of the mother is at risk from continuing the pregnancy. An estimated 10,000 Irish women travel every year to Britain to obtain abortions, despite there having been a number of incredibly controversial referenda to change the constitution to make abortion legal.

Oddly enough though when Homosexuality was decriminalised the age of consent for Homosexual sex was made equal to that for Heterosexual sex, nearly a decade before that happened in Britain.

The sudden flurry of social changes which happened during the 1990's were the result of wider economic and social trends which came to be described as the Celtic Tiger.

Ireland joined the EU in 1973 ending decades of relative isolation and it has always been a relatively enthusiastic member. Strictly speaking the Celtic Tiger could never have happened were it not for Billions in EU funds having been pumped in to this country in the preceding decades, which upgraded the infrastructure.

The mid twentieth century was pretty bleak here, dominated by the Roman Catholic church and and crippled by poverty and mass emigration. There are some cultural hangovers from that time, most notably abortion laws, but actually the benevolent influence of the EU here (yes I said it) combined with rapid economic growth (now suddenly somewhat shrunken) have transformed Ireland permanently, making it an open and open-minded country which while it has it's problems is rightly proud of its successes and the structures of a state which took several hundred years of intermittent bloody conflict with Britain to create.

There have been corruption scandals, some pretty astounding ones actually, most arrising from the 80's and early 90's, and of course there have been child sex abuse scandals too involving the RC church.

A lot of this country is dominated by localism and it is often true that it's not what you know but who you know, but I'm yet to meet a country where that isn't the case.

Hope this has been helpful. :wink:
 
Last edited: