"Emotionally Straight" Redux

Cale · Jan 9, 2005

I bet some of you rolled your eyes as you clicked into this topic. "Christ, it's that whiney bitch Cale again, still gay as ever and unwilling to admit it to himself. Why do I even bother reading his rants?"

Believe me when I say that no one could be more sick of it than I am right now, but I find myself coming back to this incredibly supportive community over and over hoping to find some glimpse of hope for myself. It's strange to think that intermixed with all the posts about penis size, sex techniques, and how to tell your best friend you want to sit down and give each other hand jobs, one would find this kind of serious sympathy and support.

I come to you again having already read your advice and personal experiences with this gripping issue over and over and over again. But rather than tell you the same old story you're all tired of hearing, this tale has a new twist I should have seen coming from miles away:

I have a serious girlfriend now, and she doesn't know I have gay feelings.

...I almost typed "and she doesn't know I'm gay" just now, but then flew my pinky over that faithful Backspace key. Am I in denial, people?

Seriously, I love this woman to death in almost every way imaginable -- she's tall, she's beautiful, she's intelligent, she's funny, and best of all she's the most down-to-earth person I've ever known -- I just lack any desire to get "down and dirty" with her.

Not that there's any rush to get that off our list; she shares the same belief that I hold that sex is something special to be shared between people who have known and loved each other for a long time.

......well...I suppose I should be using the term "share" loosely. Maybe I'm just too homosexual to have any interest in such an act with her. I have had plenty of times when I've been tempted almost beyond all self-control to drive down to the local gay bathhouse and relieve myself in anonymous pleasure.

Mostly I just want to know what the hell is wrong with me, and how am I going to best deal with it while simultaneously balancing my own emotions!

People, I'm just not like the admirable and courageous Corey Johnson who came out to his high school football team in freaking high school. I literally cringed when I read that his teammates joked about "good-looking guys" and gay bars in the lockerroom. I'm sure Corey felt fine with it and really, truly, deep-down didn't give a shit about homophobic peoples' stereotypes and derogatory comments, but I'm not that cool. Despite my own apparent feminisms that I've done my best to mask around other people, I hate seeing openly-gay and very feminine men -- with the lisp, wrist-bend, and ALL. I don't hate them or their lifestyle, it just makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable.

Am I insecure about this or WHAT?

Anyway, there I go again, ranting about the same damn issue. I'm sure most of you are already intimately familiar with what I'm going through, since this must be the fourth time I've brought it up here at LPSG.

The main reason for this post is the girl in the equation, the one I care a lot about and don't want to hurt. She has so much trust in me that I can almost literally feel it radiating into me when I'm spooning with her in bed late at night.

All my internal conflicts and mixed feelings came to a climax when we went to a hip-hop dance club downtown and started doing the sex dancing -- you know, when a guy and his girl basically have sex vicariously through dance moves and with all clothes still on. The whole time, all I could think about was how dishonest I was being with not only myself but this beautiful young woman. It hurt. I started hating myself again when only hours earlier I had been feeling fantastic about a new semester at the university and my path in life.

Should I just be open with this girl and tell her what I'm feeling? Something along the lines of, "I needed to tell you this before we continued on this path in our relationship." At which point, I suppose, she could think long and hard about it and either dump me (but stay friends?) or keep things up with me like nothing changed.

I feel like that's the best answer, the one most of you are going to tell me to do, but it's the one I'm most afraid of, almost as much as I am to be openly gay to the world. I keep telling myself it's what I need to do (the being openly gay thing, too&#33

, but my gut instincts keep telling me otherwise. Why are we always most afraid of doing what we know is the right thing?

Alternatively, I suppose I could continue doing things like I already have been, pretending to be the straight guy I'm not, perhaps eventually leading to a life of forced sex (I call it "raping myself"), marriage, and three kids in a house in the suburbs. (But I wouldn't be the only guy who did that, now would I?)

I post this message, in the hopes that I'll find some nuggest of good advice I have not thought about before.

I thank you all in advance for being the wonderful supportive people that you are.

B_DoubleMeatWhopper · Jan 9, 2005

Originally posted by Cale@Jan 10 2005, 02:51 AM
I suppose I could continue doing things like I already have been, pretending to be the straight guy I'm not, perhaps eventually leading to a life of forced sex (I call it "raping myself"), marriage, and three kids in a house in the suburbs. (But I wouldn't be the only guy who did that, now would I?)

No you wouldn't be the first. You would be only one more man living a life of misery, causing himself and the ones he cares about untold pain. One more who lies to himself and others because because he despises who he really is. Cale, I know men who have done what you seem to be resigning yourself to. Why? To gain respectability by not allowing himself to be who he is? By living someone's ideal life? And think of your girlfriend. Doesn't she deserve to be loved by someone who can maintain a sexual relationship with her? Or do you think it's better for her to be continually lied to by someone in order to save face? I'm not trying to be overly harsh. I'm just a voice of experience. I've seen what becomes of these types of marriages of convenience, and it's rarely anything but disastrous. You'll resent her for keeping you in a relationship that lacks sexual fulfilment, and she'll not understand why you're becoming ever more distant. And to bring children into that arrangement? Let's not create innocent victims just so people will approve of the image you try so hard to project. If you're truly gay -- and I think you know that to be the case -- why condemn yourself and the woman you care for to what you know to be a lie? Tell her. Sure, it will mean the end of the relationship, but better now than sometime down the line. You both deserve to be happy. Both of you need to find men that can accept you for who you are. A gay life is not easy, but neither is a life of trying to keep it covered up. Of course, this is just my opinion. You will do as you feel you must.

madame_zora · Jan 9, 2005

DMW absolutely speaks the truth. I was married to one such man, and it left my life in total shambles. From the woman's point of view, it is miserably cruel to only think of yourself and how you feel without giving equal weight to the impact on her. You will find excuses not to have sex with her (raping yourself), she will feel horrible low self esteem issues, she may gain weight, take pills, drink to excess, and you- you'll eventually end up at the bathhouse anyway. There is no way to save this from becomming disastrous without honesty! If you really care about her, as you say you do, prove it! Don't let your selfish insecurities stop you from being a good man. We very seldom reflect on what a selfish emotion fear is, it allows us ONLY to think of ourselves and not the others around us. We think our fear makes us deserving of sympathy, but it does not. It also is not an acceptable excuse for bad behavior. Period.

Unlike DMW, I am trying to break your balls a little here, not because I don't care about you, but because I do. Yes, I remember your posts before and if you're still in the same place as you were then you seriously need to snap out of it before you leave a trail of wreckage in your wake. Unlike many who take this path, you have options. You have friends here to lean on. You will make it. You may not choose to live an openly gay life, many men prefer to keep their private life private except for those who are involved in it. That's your choice entirely, but please don't continue letting this woman believe you can love her as a husband, when you know full well you can't. My husband also used the guise of "waiting until we were married" for sex, only then did I find out how horrible my life was going to be. To reject someone sexually breaks them at the core of their being, please don't be this cruel to someone you claim to love.

txquis · Jan 9, 2005

Cale,
Once upon a time, I was in the same spot.
It ruled my life until i was almost 25 years old.

I was in the closet, I was living a life for other people, not myself.
I did not want to hurt my parents, already grieving over the death
of my twin brother.
And i did not want to hurt my girlfriend of 3 years,
the one I lost my virginity to, the one I adored, the one who
was my best friend.
But i knew that emotionally i was not complete,
and to a certain degree, sexually also.

In my experience...if love isnt emotional and sexual combined,
it isn't "there". How could i deny her the experience of finding
that combination in someone else? How could I deny myself the
same?

I went into denial. For years and years.
And when I finally did tell the truth...i realized the only person
i was really hurting by staying in the closet was me.

My girlfriend and my parents all got over it....
but it took much longer to be fine with myself over all the wasted
time, and the guilt of the lies that i told myself and them all those years.

Even though gay life is hard, too...it isnt as hard as keeping
up the charade, at least for me.
As hard as it was, it lifted a weight off of me,
and set my heart, mind and soul free for the first time in my whole life.

All us gay people have a different story...but most of us
have one thing in common: We had to be brave enough to be ourselves
and tell the truth to people we love.

I cant tell you what to do...but i can tell you my story:
Telling the truth was the beginning, not the end.
Peace.

Freddie53 · Jan 9, 2005

Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper+Jan 9 2005, 10:51 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DoubleMeatWhopper @ Jan 9 2005, 10:51 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Cale@Jan 10 2005, 02:51 AM
I suppose I could continue doing things like I already have been, pretending to be the straight guy I'm not, perhaps eventually leading to a life of forced sex (I call it "raping myself"), marriage, and three kids in a house in the suburbs.Â (But I wouldn't be the only guy who did that, now would I?)

No you wouldn't be the first. You would be only one more man living a life of misery, causing himself and the ones he cares about untold pain. One more who lies to himself and others because because he despises who he really is. Cale, I know men who have done what you seem to be resigning yourself to. Why? To gain respectability by not allowing himself to be who he is? By living someone's ideal life? And think of your girlfriend. Doesn't she deserve to be loved by someone who can maintain a sexual relationship with her? Or do you think it's better for her to be continually lied to by someone in order to save face? I'm not trying to be overly harsh. I'm just a voice of experience. I've seen what becomes of these types of marriages of convenience, and it's rarely anything but disastrous. You'll resent her for keeping you in a relationship that lacks sexual fulfilment, and she'll not understand why you're becoming ever more distant. And to bring children into that arrangement? Let's not create innocent victims just so people will approve of the image you try so hard to project. If you're truly gay -- and I think you know that to be the case -- why condemn yourself and the woman you care for to what you know to be a lie? Tell her. Sure, it will mean the end of the relationship, but better now than sometime down the line. You both deserve to be happy. Both of you need to find men that can accept you for who you are. A gay life is not easy, but neither is a life of trying to keep it covered up. Of course, this is just my opinion. You will do as you feel you must.

[post=273518]Quoted post[/post]

[/b][/quote]
DMW? Where were you when I needed to hear this. I am glad I have my children. And I truly love my wife and we have a good relationship. But it is not sexual and hasn't been or a while. I am one of those who did what was expected. I have managed well. Much better than most. but the truth is most can't do as well as I have.

The idea that a truly completely gay person can be changed just isn't so. The ones that are changed were bi. I believe a majority of people are bisexual. But there is a minority that are completely and totally straight and there are those that are compeltely and totally gay.

If a person is completely totally gay, marriage to a woman can be a disaster. If a gay guy just isn't willing to find a gay partner, then he would be better off remaining single and even celibate.

All those miraculous healings or treatments that changed a person from gay to straight only work on bisexual people.

In my case I have decided to stay in a marriage and find much of it satisfying. But the real truth can't be disclosed. The truth in my case would completely wreck everything in my family. It is not worth the cost of what I would lose, not at this stage of my health, which I havn't discussed here. I am not physically well. And my health problems are permanent and are progressing. It is possible to love someone in a non sexual way and have a life together. This will not work in many cases, but it has in mine. My boat doesn't need to be rocked right now.

This is my two cents worth. In essence agreeing with BTW. If a guy goes into a marriage with that much amamosity to the institution of marriage as this poster has done, I just don't see how his marriage has a chance of surviving with any degree of happiness.

Freddie

Freddie53 · Jan 9, 2005

Originally posted by madame_zora@Jan 9 2005, 11:08 PM
DMW absolutely speaks the truth. I was married to one such man, and it left my life in total shambles. From the woman's point of view, it is miserably cruel to only think of yourself and how you feel without giving equal weight to the impact on her. You will find excuses not to have sex with her (raping yourself), she will feel horrible low self esteem issues, she may gain weight, take pills, drink to excess, and you- you'll eventually end up at the bathhouse anyway. There is no way to save this from becomming disastrous without honesty! If you really care about her, as you say you do, prove it! Don't let your selfish insecurities stop you from being a good man. We very seldom reflect on what a selfish emotion fear is, it allows us ONLY to think of ourselves and not the others around us. We think our fear makes us deserving of sympathy, but it does not. It also is not an acceptable excuse for bad behavior. Period.

Unlike DMW, I am trying to break your balls a little here, not because I don't care about you, but because I do. Yes, I remember your posts before and if you're still in the same place as you were then you seriously need to snap out of it before you leave a trail of wreckage in your wake. Unlike many who take this path, you have options. You have friends here to lean on. You will make it. You may not choose to live an openly gay life, many men prefer to keep their private life private except for those who are involved in it. That's your choice entirely, but please don't continue letting this woman believe you can love her as a husband, when you know full well you can't. My husband also used the guise of "waiting until we were married" for sex, only then did I find out how horrible my life was going to be. To reject someone sexually breaks them at the core of their being, please don't be this cruel to someone you claim to love.

[post=273526]Quoted post[/post]

jana, in my case, my wife has no sex drive at all. She was the one who ended sexual relations after the birth of our last child. I am enough bi to have enjoyed it then. It is totally different if a guy is at least partly bi then if he is totally gay. I guess as I have aged I have changed and become less bi and more gay. That is the worst part that could happen. Since my wife isn't interested at all in sex, then it has allowed the marriage to stay strong. But my situation is an exception to the rule. I woldn't ever advocate a mainly gay guy from getting married to a woman unless the marriage was for other reasons besides romance and both parties went into the marriage knowing that. Even then, my eyebrows are raised.

Pappy · Jan 9, 2005

Cale, I agree with what has already been said. You need to be honest with yourself and you owe it to your lady friend to be honest with her. While comming out and living a life that is true to yourself is difficult, it's not nearly as difficult as living a lie. If you're not honest with yourself then you will only end up hurting those you care about the most as well as hurting yourself. Give it a lot of thought and then take action and live life the way you feel you should.

Best of luck in becoming honest with yourself.

jonb · Jan 10, 2005

I agree with Jacinto and Jana; "beard" relationships end up hurting you, her, and potentially your future children far more than just admitting you're gay. And I guarantee you'll find that 99% of the gay men here have at least one beard story before they came out; most of them didn't go to the extreme of marriage and children first, but those who did ended in disaster.

As I see it, four paths lie open to you:

1) You come up with excuses not to have sex with her. She gets an eating disorder and maybe a few addictions.
2) You have sex with her even though you don't really want to, thus leaving you sexually unfulfilled. Eventually, you have children. The stress leads you to taking it out in unhealthy ways.
3) You have sex with strange men. She gets suspicious and you're outed anyway. Even worse, having sex with strange people risks all kinds of infections, regardless of your orientation.
4) You come out. She may or may not understand you; hopefully you can still be friends. I won't kid you here; being gay is difficult, especially in the Midwest. (I'm assuming since your profile says you're on central time.) But it's still the path of least resistance.

madame_zora · Jan 10, 2005

Cale, lest you cling desperately to what Freddie said about being bi, let me assure you of one thing- you're not! Freddie was able to enjoy having sex with his wife while it was going on, you refer to it as "forced sex" and "raping myself"- very telling words! I am glad you were honest enough with yourself and with us to speak so plainly, but I need to re-emphasize the point that there's no goddamned thing as "emotionally straight and sexually gay". Gay is a sexual preference, not an emotional one. I like being friends with women too, but I also have no desire to have sex with them, it would feel gross. I know that's how you are feeling, despite how much fun you have with this person and how much you connect on an intellectual and emotional level. Sexual preference is about SEX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you don't desire sex with women, you are not straight, and not bisexual, you are gay.

Cale · Jan 10, 2005

You make valid points, zora, and I appreciate your thoughtful input, especially being a member of the opposite sex. (And that goes for the rest of you as well -- thanks for commenting.)

I guess I failed to emphasize in my original posts that I happen to believe in a thing called love and have been searching for it, but I can't imagine finding it in a man. There seems to be a fine line between having regular, recreational sex with a person and sharing an actual relationship with him or her. Call me old-fashioned, but I have always believed there are people out there who can complete me, if you will -- who can be there everyday for the rest of my life and help me to learn more about myself and to get more out of life.

I've thought about trying to find this in a man, but I just can't imagine it working out well at all. For you people, it seems that as long as your sexual preference is tied to one sex or the other, that's who you should be dating and romancing with. But I just don't feel that way. I do not want to go to dinner and a movie with a guy, I do not want to cuddle on the couch with a guy, I do not want to make out with a guy, and I do not want to marry another man. But I do want to do all those things with someone and not lead a lonely life of empty sex.

A thoughtful member in an earlier thread (forgot his name, sorry) said that right now I won't find love in a man, but that someday, I might. Forgive me for being doubtful, but I'm nineteen now and I feel like I have a pretty good idea of what I'm looking for in a relationship.

Am I crazy for feeling this way?? Should I just shut up and accept the life my primitive urges have chosen for me?

Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts above this post.

13788 · Jan 10, 2005

Volt: It's a long long story involoving child issues and abuse. But I use to be Gay.

I get tired and pissed when people say you can't switch, but you can. I did, It took 6 years and it was the worst time of my life but beyond the porn addictions and self questioning I actually went from Gay to Straight.

The thing is you have to be very willing, and in the end it was my spirituality with God that gave the last push toward 100% straight. The journey was long and difficult. And with everyone saying "its not possible" it wasn't easy.

But It is possible. Sexuality is a behavoir and can be changed, I am proud of being straight now, it feels awsome. And I am very secure about it. I know a lot of guys here get hard off the image gallery. Honestly I went to see what it was and I didn't feel a single temptation, heck i didn't get hard or anything. I just saw is as... "so".

I have so much to say and I know my story is very incomplete but it is true. I know i'm straight, God knows I'm straight, my freinds know i'm straight and if you don't beleive me, I could care less.

I go to Full Sail for a Game Design degree, and I'm surrounded by 100% all guys. ALL THE TIME, and I've never been tempted, NEVER. It's like this incredible amount of releife, like everything is good now, everything is going the way it's suppose to Go. Like I said it took 6 years of fighting, Iknow other guys who've gone from gay-> straight and now have families. When I say straight I mean "For Real" i'm not making myself THINK i'm straight I actually am. I don't try to... I just sit back and enjoy the ride. So don't ever feel like you can't do the same.

My best freind Joe was molested by his Father's Partner's nephew. And I counciled a bit to him, He's already got girlfreinds now and a normal life. But finding out we shared something in common was good.

It's been a few years now, But there's been absolutely NO backsliding. During my 6 year fight I went back and forth and then turned super gay and then stoped,

These Urges might be natural for you, but consider this, violent behavoir, cancer, death, are also "Natural" it doens't mean you can't fight it and win. We are all born with our problems, our villans that we must fight and overcome.

txquis · Jan 10, 2005

It isn't a question of not believing you...we are all different.
We all have to do what is best for us.
It was not best for me to play it straight.

I have had friends do the "i was gay, now i'm straight" thing.
All were involved in a church that was helping them "not be gay".
Of the 4 people I know, the longest one pulled it off was 6 years.
All 4 are now gay again.

Many people supress their natural desires because of their religious beliefs.
But, I do not know many who have maintained the changes for a lifetime,
unfortunately. :unsure:

It is hard to sort out the ones who turn to their god out of faith,
and those who turn to their god because they are hiding from something.
The people I mentioned were hiding behind the faith facade.

13788 · Jan 10, 2005

Volt: dang. all 4 went back? I remember at first I went straight then back and forth between gay and straight. What your freinds did was try to ignore it, cover it up or suppress it. I didn't suspress anything In fact I let it out a bit too much, I didn't just wake up one day and think, I am now straight, unlike those 4 guys I spent years (6) and went one on one with fighting it. I confronted it, fought it, lost, got back up, and kept fighting, lots of psycological questioning and deciding. And it was after 6 years of this that my transformation happened, slowly but surely, and perminantly, FOR REAL.

I didn't have a church, I didn't have any support. It was a decision i made myself. I know now-a-days guys do circle jerks and call themselves 100% straight. I might have been gay but I've had self control over myself to never do such a thing.

And I didn't mean to make it sound the way i did. It is your choice to be who you are, So was mine, i'm just saying here to say if you don't like who you are, you can change, I did perminantly. And the guys I know that were gay and went straight have done so perminantly and are still straight for years now. Not a single one has gone back.

A real Change is a real change. it doens't need to be maintained. I don't wake up every morning and say "i need to be straight again today", I just am. I remember the last time i was into the porn thing I was gay, I was in teh process of trying to go straight. And something changed, gradually, that time it was for real, i felt it. since then i lost the porn addiction, and it felt wierd at first.

but I went through my entire gay porn collection without getting turned on. Suddenly it was like, there was a whole new world open, and i crossed into it. And the door behind me closed and disapeared. I didn't care anymore. and the attraction I had before dissapeared, and years have gone by and Nothing has changed, Dispite my situation, I'm still straight for real.

And beleive me I've gone through some tests and challenges and passed with flying colors. It's true, it's real, it's me.

Cale · Jan 10, 2005

Originally posted by Volt@Jan 10 2005, 09:11 PM
And beleive me I've gone through some tests and challenges and passed with flying colors. It's true, it's real, it's me.

[post=273815]Quoted post[/post]

Sounds great. Now how much are you going to charge to teach me your eight-step technique?

B_DoubleMeatWhopper · Jan 11, 2005

Originally posted by Cale@Jan 11 2005, 12:17 AM
I happen to believe in a thing called love and have been searching for it, but I can't imagine finding it in a man. There seems to be a fine line between having regular, recreational sex with a person and sharing an actual relationship with him or her. Call me old-fashioned, but I have always believed there are people out there who can complete me, if you will -- who can be there everyday for the rest of my life and help me to learn more about myself and to get more out of life.

I've thought about trying to find this in a man, but I just can't imagine it working out well at all. For you people, it seems that as long as your sexual preference is tied to one sex or the other, that's who you should be dating and romancing with. But I just don't feel that way. I do not want to go to dinner and a movie with a guy, I do not want to cuddle on the couch with a guy, I do not want to make out with a guy, and I do not want to marry another man. But I do want to do all those things with someone and not lead a lonely life of empty sex.

Well, Cale, I don't know what to tell you. You say you want someone who can complete you, but you're pursuing a relationship where you have to force yourself to have sex with your chosen partner. You've actually likened it to rape ... your word. Is a relationship devoid of sex coupled with passion a 'complete' relationship? Not for me. Sex accompanied by love is great ... it can't be surpassed. Sex without love ... sure, I've done it. In fact, I've done it often. But love without passionate expression through sex? Not me. That's not natural. Yet you seem determined to resign yourself and your girlfriend to a life without fulfilling sex and claim that it's a more satisfactory arrangement. Please, dude: if that were true, you wouldn't be writing here for advice in the first place. The fact that you've posted about your situation in a few different threads is a pretty clear indication that you're not entirely comfortable with your decision. Cale, you're nineteen. You're apparently not secure enough in your own identity to make major decisions that can shape your future happiness. Many nineteen year-olds aren't. You need to feel comfortable in your own skin before you involve others in a relationship that could have serious repercussions on their future happiness. How would you like it if you were lured into a relationship only to later find out that your partner decides that you're just not who is desirable? I could be wrong, but it sounds to me that you're seriously close to doing that to someone. Regardless of Volt's claims, sexuality is not a choice; you can't will yourself to be one-way or the other. Any psychologist who still claims that you can would be rightfully ridiculed by his peers. (I'm not about to argue that subject here.) You're young; give yourself time and room to grow. The solution to your problem won't reveal itself to you if you refuse to let yourself see it.

madame_zora · Jan 11, 2005

Cale, I completely agree with every word DMW just posted, so I'll just ask one direct question, does SHE know that life with you means life without sex?

Ahem, I already know the answer is "no". You are being a fraud. You have no right to treat someone so anabashedly cruelly. Just because YOU may be willing to have love without sex does NOT, I repeat NOT give you the right to make that decision for her. Period, End of discussion. If I knew where you lived, I'd tell her myself. This is just flat out wrong.

Volt- To quote that immortal philosopher Tyler Durden "Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken". Being abstinant from men doesn't make you straight.

Cale · Jan 11, 2005

Ah, I see, now I'm a criminal for being in the closet. Damn, why don't we just make it national law that every man and woman in America must have interactive MRI brain scans done to determine whether they're gay or straight, and every gay person will be added to a massive searchable database that any suspicious partner/relative/friend/employer can look into. I bet it would make Lenin proud.

Jesus, Zora, I've only known the girl for four months or so, and we've only been intimate for barely six weeks. I think she'd be happy to know I was thinking about this so early in our relationship and that I cared enough about her to consider coming out and declaring my homosexuality to everyone just to make sure she's happy. I'm sorry I didn't tell her I was questioning my sexuality on the first day we met. Please handcuff me and take me away now, for the sake of all the women in the world who have been hurt by their confused but well-meaning ex-partners.

And I never ONCE said I was willing to have love without sex; if that were the case, why would I be so torn right now? This girl and I are not in love, we are just dating. I wouldn't ever allow it get to that high a level without being completely honest with her and figuring out where my loins really lie. Jesus Effing Christ.

13788 · Jan 11, 2005

Volt:

Originally posted by Cale+Jan 11 2005, 04:09 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cale @ Jan 11 2005, 04:09 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Volt@Jan 10 2005, 09:11 PM
And beleive me I've gone through some tests and challenges and passed with flying colors. It's true, it's real, it's me.

[post=273815]Quoted post[/post]

Sounds great. Now how much are you going to charge to teach me your eight-step technique?

[post=273826]Quoted post[/post]

[/b][/quote]

no money, and it's not really a technique but a journey, and there's a lot of hard-ship and mental depression involved. Also it's a one on one type thing, so PM me or e-mail me if you'd like anything further.

And Madam Zora, why respond with smart@$$ comments on something you don't understand, nor feel, nor have felt or will ever feel.

Abstinance from men doesn't make you straight, you are Correct. It is the thought, the feeling, the attraction, the desire, the passion and the want. I no longer have ANY of those. I never said anything about staying away from men making me straight, Being gay is about who you are attracted to, and I am not attracted to men. Nor Am i tempted. It's in the past, people change, and get on with their life. Only to run into others like you who try to drag them back in the ways of the old.

madame_zora · Jan 11, 2005

Cale, if that sounded unnecessarily harsh, it is only because you are waffling. Let me amke more clear what I meant.

You don't owe anyone an explanation on your sexuality, but if you are letting someone get close to you, they should be able to grapple with their chioces just like you are. You didn't post the length of time of your acquaintance, and I did think it was longer. Kudos to you for addressing it early on! If you did/do decide it's not the right thing for you, I'm sure you could ease out gracefully without "coming out" if it is not your desire to do so. I am the last person in the world that would advocate coming out fully beofre you're ready. I'm just saying it's cruel to let someone believe in something that's not true.

If you weren't suggesting love without sex, then I have no clue what you are suggesting. You have said that you view sex with a woman as "forced" and feels like "raping yourself", but you feel emotionally connected to this girl, and still feel no attraction for her. WHAT ELSE COULD YOU POSSIBLY BE SAYING? Perhaps you are anaware yourself of how you feel, but your words are quite clear. It seems that you are desperately trying to find a third category, something new and unique, that will prevent you from having to face facts, but there isn't one. If you aren't attracted to women sexually, you're gay. I wish there was a better answer for you, there's not. You can vascillate all you want, but the conclusion will never change. BTW, bisexual means having no gender preference, finding both genders equally appealing. That's not where you are saying you are at all. How would you feel if it were reversed? Your g/f was gay, didn't like dick, but "let you stick it in" just to make you happy? Wouldn't that feel gross? What if you knew it made her sick to have sex with you, could you ever be fulfilled in that relationship? Fair questions.

It seems clear that you've figured out where your loins really lie, it's your life that's upsetting you. There's surely no crime in that either. I've never had to go through what you're facing. I can only imagine that letting go of the "white picket fence" dream we are all raised on must be quite a chunk to swallow. My heart goes out to you there, truly. I hope you will make some friends along the way who will make it seem worthwhile, I know I have. I had some dreams to let go of too, just different ones. Our lives can be combinations of many things and still be very fulfilling, yours doesn't have to emulate anyone else's to be good for you. Also, you don't have to completely grieve the loss of women, many gay men have truly fulfilling relationships with women who are their dear friends, with the open knowledge that sex is not a part of that relationship. Now doesn't that sound more pleasant, not to have that pressure on you?

For whatever reason, both my daughter and myself have experienced multiple times dating men who later came out to us as being gay. I call myself (and she does too&#33

a "fag hag" because they can spot me a mile away! What bothers me is, I have no problem with gay people and am very outspoken about it, so why anyone would hide it from me I cannot guess. I've always had gay friends, both men and women, and would gladly befriend a gay man, might even consider sharing space with him, if only he were honest with me! I can't abide deceit, and once I'm lied to, the trust is gone. If my ex had been honest up front, and agreed to an open realtionship, I would have stayed with him. I can only tell you in sincerity that it is a very crushing experience to a woman's self esteem to be rejected sexually. She feels like garbage that's being thrown away. If she is developing feelings for you thinking your relationship is a hetero one, she could very easily be hurt. You have choices that she does not. Choose wisely.

madame_zora · Jan 11, 2005

Originally posted by Volt@Jan 11 2005, 06:12 AM

And Madam Zora, why respond with smart@$$ comments on something you don't understand, nor feel, nor have felt or will ever feel.

Abstinance from men doesn't make you straight, you are Correct. It is the thought, the feeling, the attraction, the desire, the passion and the want. I no longer have ANY of those. I never said anything about staying away from men making me straight, Being gay is about who you are attracted to, and I am not attracted to men. Nor Am i tempted. It's in the past, people change, and get on with their life. Only to run into others like you who try to drag them back in the ways of the old.

[post=273857]Quoted post[/post]

Volt, you are right that I don't know you or your situation, so for that, I apologise.

By way of explanation, it's certainly NOT something I haven't gone through, although I haven't discussed it very recently on here. I was married to a guy who turned out to be gay. He is still in denial at 58! We were married for two years, went through couples counselling, tried several times to reconcile...yeah, I know what I'm talking about! And then some. I gained 75 pounds, and was celibate for several years AFTER our divorce! Now, you tell me about trauma. Just because he couldn't utter the word "gay", I had to be the scapegoat for why he couldn't have sex with me. First, it was that my vagina smelled bad, so I went to the doctor and actually asked him to smell my vagina! Do you have any idea how humiliating that was? The doctor told me I just smelled like a woman, nothing was wrong with me. Both he and his wife, who was his nurse, held me while I cried and told them why I had asked. It remains one of the worst days of my life, and I've had a doozy. Next, it was that I had a bad mouth odor, so I went to the dentist, I was ready for it this time, once again, I was normal. By then I had gained the weight so he said I just wasn't attractive to him. You get the picture.

If you are telling us that you eagerly anticipate the sight, feel, and function of woman's sex organs, then I have to believe you, I have no other choice, but I personally have never seen this happen. Sorry we got off on the wrong foot, I didn't mean to be an asshole, it just hits very close to home. More recently my daughter has been involved with her first love, the love of her life, who was straight, they had very good sex (for her) for months, then he told her he was gay. Then he missed her so he was straight. Then he was gay again. This has been going on for five years now in between her trying to let him go and find someone new. He just won't leave her alone. Yeah, I'm bitter about the waffling. I have good reason. I wish gay men would really consider the impact this has on the women you get involved with trying to lie to yourself.

"Emotionally Straight" Redux

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