"Emotionally Straight" Redux

[13788]

Volt:

Originally posted by madame_zora+Jan 11 2005, 06:55 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(madame_zora &#064; Jan 11 2005, 06:55 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Volt@Jan 11 2005, 06:12 AM

And Madam Zora, why respond with smart@&#036;&#036; comments on something you don&#39;t understand, nor feel, nor have felt or will ever feel.

Abstinance from men doesn&#39;t make you straight, you are Correct. It is the thought, the feeling, the attraction, the desire, the passion and the want. I no longer have ANY of those. I never said anything about staying away from men making me straight, Being gay is about who you are attracted to, and I am not attracted to men. Nor Am i tempted. It&#39;s in the past, people change, and get on with their life. Only to run into others like you who try to drag them back in the ways of the old.

[post=273857]Quoted post[/post]​

Volt, you are right that I don&#39;t know you or your situation, so for that, I apologise.

By way of explanation, it&#39;s certainly NOT something I haven&#39;t gone through, although I haven&#39;t discussed it very recently on here. I was married to a guy who turned out to be gay. He is still in denial at 58&#33; We were married for two years, went through couples counselling, tried several times to reconcile...yeah, I know what I&#39;m talking about&#33; And then some. I gained 75 pounds, and was celibate for several years AFTER our divorce&#33; Now, you tell me about trauma. Just because he couldn&#39;t utter the word "gay", I had to be the scapegoat for why he couldn&#39;t have sex with me. First, it was that my vagina smelled bad, so I went to the doctor and actually asked him to smell my vagina&#33; Do you have any idea how humiliating that was? The doctor told me I just smelled like a woman, nothing was wrong with me. Both he and his wife, who was his nurse, held me while I cried and told them why I had asked. It remains one of the worst days of my life, and I&#39;ve had a doozy. Next, it was that I had a bad mouth odor, so I went to the dentist, I was ready for it this time, once again, I was normal. By then I had gained the weight so he said I just wasn&#39;t attractive to him. You get the picture.

If you are telling us that you eagerly anticipate the sight, feel, and function of woman&#39;s sex organs, then I have to believe you, I have no other choice, but I personally have never seen this happen. Sorry we got off on the wrong foot, I didn&#39;t mean to be an asshole, it just hits very close to home. More recently my daughter has been involved with her first love, the love of her life, who was straight, they had very good sex (for her) for months, then he told her he was gay. Then he missed her so he was straight. Then he was gay again. This has been going on for five years now in between her trying to let him go and find someone new. He just won&#39;t leave her alone. Yeah, I&#39;m bitter about the waffling. I have good reason. I wish gay men would really consider the impact this has on the women you get involved with trying to lie to yourself.

[post=273862]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]

You weren&#39;t being a a-hole, I have a lot of respect for you. And I can see why you made the comment. But I&#39;m an Oddball, a very strange one. If you&#39;ve never seen one like me make it, then be prepared to gasp and see that, people like me do exhist. Even if I&#39;m the only one in the world that&#39;s actually gone from Gay to straight. So be it. I have a greater respect for gay, ex-gay people because they have to make a choice. Unlike heterosexuals who don&#39;t need to question themselves like I had to. Every gay person has a story to tell.

I&#39;ve counciled to lots of guys, one actually got kicked out of his home, him mom died of a stroke after finding out he was gay and his dad blamed him for it. The guy lost all his freinds and life sucks for him. Who knew that there was a way out? We are who we are, but the mind is a powerful thing, we are who we want to be. If you want it that bad you will achieve it.

I&#39;m a very moral person, so Pre-marrital sex isn&#39;t my thing. I&#39;m positive if you/your daughter would hold sex as something special for married couples only (yes i&#39;m old fashion) then maybe it would be a lot less stress. I&#39;ve never been married, so I&#39;ve got no room to talk. But I wish you the best of luck on your relationships. Maybe it&#39;s your acceptance that draws in all these guys who are closet gays. They just want comfort and when they find it, they&#39;ll release all the stress. Set up a guideline that you go by before dating anyone.

I&#39;ve got gay freinds, counciled to gay freinds. And it&#39;s no walk in the park. But I thank God every day I wake up that I am straight. It&#39;s a wonderful feelings most people don&#39;t appreciate becaues they take it for-granted. I had to work...fight for it. So many tears, so much depression and suicidal thoughts. over not knowing who you are. I say screw it. You are who you want to be but, most of all, we should be who God needs us to be.

Right now all i am to you and everyone else is just a regular user, But I&#39;ve got my own story, and it&#39;s quite an incredible one. Porn, witchcraft, child abuse, violent father, suicide, depression, Homosexuality, transexuality, satanism. All I can say is that I&#39;ve been there, done that, and I&#39;ve seen where those roads go, and I refuse to down them, I&#39;ve got nothing left to temp me, I know where all those roads lead. Text can only say so much. But I would love to have a talk and exchange stories with you If we ever ever meet, you sound like a very good listener.

 

[madame_zora]

Volt, I do respect you for following what you belive in, I think that&#39;s great. But now knowing that you are a virgin I have to ask, how do you KNOW you are straight? I am a little confused (not a new thing for me&#33, but I think the proof won&#39;t preceed the experience. I hope in earnest that you are right, and that you don&#39;t follow in my footsteps.

"If you are a minority of but one, the truth is still the truth"- Mahatma Ghandi. I have done several things that I don&#39;t know anyone else who has done them, that&#39;s not a reason to doubt you. I also applaud your religous convictions, even though I don&#39;t share them. OH, just for the record, I DID wait till marriage for sex, otherwise I would have known what I was getting into and NOT done it&#33; I must therefore respectfully disagree with that statement. Thankfully my daughter will be spared that mistake. We each must find our own path, I believe we each have our own reason for being, not all will follow in the same direction, but none are any more/less important in the grand scheme of things than the others. If my ways are not yours, I&#39;m still glad you&#39;re here that we might learn from each other.

In the light, Jana

 

[Freddie53]

I bet some of you rolled your eyes as you clicked into this topic. "Christ, it&#39;s that whiney bitch Cale again, still gay as ever and unwilling to admit it to himself. Why do I even bother reading his rants?"

Believe me when I say that no one could be more sick of it than I am right now, but I find myself coming back to this incredibly supportive community over and over hoping to find some glimpse of hope for myself.

Cale,

Listen carefully. I am not sure what you should do in the long run. But I think everyone who has posted whether religious, non religious, gay, bi or straight, those who believe you can change and those who believe you can&#39;t change; we all have one common tought:

You have no business getting married or proceeding further into this relationship AT THIS TIME.

You are confused. You don&#39;t go into furthering this kind of relationship confused. It is a recipe for disaster.

First a quick review on changing your gender preference. I am a religious person and so I don&#39;t discount the power of God to provide miracles. It is extremely, and very extremely difficult for a truly complete gay person to change to straight without a miracle from God.

Religion is a personal thing and if you accept the concept of miracles then of course anything is possible with miracles. But short of a miracle, it is extremely dififcult to change from completely gay to completely straight or vice versa. And I suspect that it is very probable that this "change" could be undone in a heartbeat under the right or as the case my be"wrong" circumstancs.

The wonderful sexual preference success stories are nearly always about people who are bisexual. Of course bisexual people can mold themselves and "unmold" themselves at will. And some do just as a matter of course.

As I said in an earlier post about 10 percent of the population is completely straight and 10 % is completely gay. This means that they can&#39;t or will not change short of a miracle and that is if you believe in miracles to start with.

I can&#39;t imagine going into a sexaul relationship with the feeling that you think of it as self rape. There is no way that this relationship has a snow balls chance in hell succeeding on a sexual basis.

Back off. Get counseling. If you are religious, consider your beliefs and what your religious tests ie, the Bible, Koran etc. tell you. Reconcile all of this before you proceed with this relatiionship.

All of us who have posted have had different slants. But the one thing that I saw all of us agree with it BACK OFF. Even the poster who said you could change your sexual preference admitted that it took six years of hell and extensive counseling for that change to take place.

You are one confused dude right now. You must get your stuff together before you cna even think about a serious long term committed relationship.

If I can help, I would be glad to do so. I think everyone who has posted would agree that will help as much as they can. We all want to support you. But we want to support you as you go into a happier time of life, not a step into a hell hole of existence with a sexual relationship you don&#39;t desire.

Best of luck to you.
Freddie

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by Volt+Jan 11 2005, 01:12 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Volt &#064; Jan 11 2005, 01:12 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by Cale@Jan 11 2005, 04:09 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Volt

@Jan 10 2005, 09:11 PM
And beleive me I&#39;ve gone through some tests and challenges and passed with flying colors. It&#39;s true, it&#39;s real, it&#39;s me.

[post=273815]Quoted post[/post]​

Sounds great. Now how much are you going to charge to teach me your eight-step technique?

[post=273826]Quoted post[/post]​

no money, and it&#39;s not really a technique but a journey, and there&#39;s a lot of hard-ship and mental depression involved. Also it&#39;s a one on one type thing, so PM me or e-mail me if you&#39;d like anything further.

And Madam Zora, why respond with smart@&#036;&#036; comments on something you don&#39;t understand, nor feel, nor have felt or will ever feel.

Abstinance from men doesn&#39;t make you straight, you are Correct. It is the thought, the feeling, the attraction, the desire, the passion and the want. I no longer have ANY of those. I never said anything about staying away from men making me straight, Being gay is about who you are attracted to, and I am not attracted to men. Nor Am i tempted. It&#39;s in the past, people change, and get on with their life. Only to run into others like you who try to drag them back in the ways of the old.

[post=273857]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
Jana went through a horrible marriage to a gay man. She was "dragging" all right but she was trying to "drag" her husband into the world of straight not into the world of gay. She failed in that mission. That is why they are divorced. Let&#39;s get our facts straight here about who was "dragging" whom and where please.

I am glad that you have been "cured". I agree that it is possible. But research shows that in a majority of cases it just doesn&#39;t happen. I am not a great expert. All I can tell you is what happens and it just doesn&#39;t happen that often for someone that was completely one thing and turned completely into something else sexually.

I wish that Jana was wrong. But unfortunately she is right. It is with deepest regret that I have to agree with her.

 

[madame_zora]

Freddie, so often we see things from a similar perspective, which is kind of funny considering our personal life differences. You speak with great wisdom, as one who knows this well. I have deeply appreciated your candor and the bonding I&#39;ve felt toward you because of it. I have only recently been made aware of the "gay to str8" camps and facilities that many of our youth have been exposed to. I guess it depends on the individual, but for the most part it makes me very sad. I wish we were teaching people how to be at peace with themselves rather than making them feel ashamed of what comes natural to them. Did you happen to catch Volt&#39;s age? He&#39;s 19, that means his six years of hell started at 13. You&#39;ll forgive me, Volt, if I just can&#39;t call that a good thing. Can you imagine the later life trauma that could be caused by such an experience in extreme youth? I know you can, as a counsellor, and are probably having the same reaction I am right about now. Remorse.

Volt, I sincerely wish you the best in your future, I hope you find the comfort you seek in your religion as well as your future relationships. No slam at you as a person, but I find it difficult to feel at ease about it. No matter, I don&#39;t have to- you do. I hope you stay here for a long time and make good friends.

Cale, I know your poor head must me swimming right now, but I hope you can feel the earnestness with which these post were made, by people who really do wish to see you happy.

 

[13788]

dallasmssix: Cale, you can write all you want on this or any other web site and get all kinds of advice but I don&#39;t think you will find what you are looking for this way. The support is great here but giving up a lifestyle of family relationships with children or denying the feelings you have for men sexually is just too tough a decision to make based on a base emotion. You obviously have some deep moral issues you need to acknowledge as well as your sexual feelings. Life is more complicated and too important to just throw down with this drive or that drive. You probably should talk to a professional counselor and possibly a religious leader or parent to help you with this type of life-defining decision. (dallasmssix@aol.com)

 

[rsny845]

Thoughts from another one who has direct experience with being gay and married...

I&#39;m 48 now, married for 25 years, 3 children. I knew from my teens that I was attracted to men, but I also knew that being gay was not acceptible. I never acted on it, I felt shame, I prayed to change.

When I went to college, everything was so new and wonderful. That was enough. I was still a virgin, totally - and lied about that to other guys - very ineffectually. I did have some awkward sex with a couple of girls in my Junior year. Then the woman I would marry approached me. I was scared, flattered, and swept away. I loved her then, I love her now - BUT - there has always been a small part of me holding back.

We lived together after college and then married. I consciously thought I could choose not to have gay feelings. For many years, the fun of being married, working in world, having our household, consumed my consciousness. We had our first child and the world was a better place. Our second child only added to our happiness. Our third child died shortly before birth. This awful event resulted in an emotional separation between my wife and I, as we each tried to survive to the next day.

In that black cloud of depression, despair and loneliness, I reached out. I knew I could not be with another woman, but I thought if I could just have sex, I&#39;d be able to handle my life. Very confused thinking, to be sure. And then I found him. Our intention was to meet for sex, we ended up with much more.

Then I began my journey to be open to myself with a goal of being open to the world. I told my wife 4 years ago. Its been rocky since, but my every action and thought begins with how it will impact my children. I treasure them and would do all this again to have them. I will leave my marriage. I intend to find a man to be with. But I have a lot to deal with first. And I am, one step at a time.

Some things I have learned - for myself:

No one person will be all things to another for an entire life. Each of us changes and becomes more.

I can love more than one person without decreasing love to another. Whether sex and physical intimacy is appropriate is a related but different issue.

The sooner I admit things to myself and share my most true self, the better all things go.

Love is not about possession. That is what is wrong with traditional marriage vows. Its about giving yourself to your other each day with no conditions, with no expectation of return.

Cale - go easy on yourself. You deserve to be loved and admired for who you are and for not other reason. You don&#39;t have to decide your lifetime today - you&#39;ll change your mind later anyway. I would encourage you to be as open as you can. You can have a meaningful relationship with this girl and not be sexual. I&#39;d encourage you to be open to finding love with a man - I know I have.

Best regards,

RS

 

[13788]

Volt: Thanks, but it wasn&#39;t my religion that compelled me to go straight, it was me, I felt it onthe inside and wanted it. It was later towards the end, after I had failed several hundred times that i gave up and just said, God man dude. take care of this, I tried. And he did. He was the last peice ofthe puzzle.

I didn&#39;t go straight because I felt ... religiously compelled to, but becuase somewhere inside it didn&#39;t feel right for me, It was like a parasite and I didn&#39;t want it, I refused it.

I know some other guys who have switched also. And Like i said, It&#39;s hell, because you&#39;re messing with your sex drive, emotional drive and everything up there. Lots of self questioning, many nights staying up figureing things out.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Jan 11 2005, 05:43 AM
Freddie, so often we see things from a similar perspective, which is kind of funny considering our personal life differences. You speak with great wisdom, as one who knows this well. I have deeply appreciated your candor and the bonding I&#39;ve felt toward you because of it. I have only recently been made aware of the "gay to str8" camps and facilities that many of our youth have been exposed to.

[post=273885]Quoted post[/post]​

Jana, thanks so much for your kind words. The feeling is mutual. I can promise you that it is my belief that if Jesus were here in the flesh, you are a person he would seek out. Why? You have a firm grasp of what really matters in life. You are forgiving yet you know what can and can&#39;t be changed. Jesus holds you in much higher regard then some who are "so called" great saints of the church. That is what I believe. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Sin is a disease of the soul. We all have it and because of it we make bad choices from time to time. Some have a greater grasp of what is really going on then others. That is life.

I have great misgivings about this changing from gay to straight programs. Counseling to seek the truth yes. Counseling with a certain outcome I have great misgivings. I do believe in miracles. And my personal belief is that the only way a completely 100 percent gay person can change to a 100 percent straight person is through a devine miracle from God. I don&#39;t know why but those miracles just don&#39;t come often.

I just didn&#39;t catch the age at first, but the young man who went from gay to straight from age 13 to age 19? That may just be the processing that guys go through. Most guys at prepurberty would be somewhat gay and that continues through the early teens. All the "I am scared of girls, but me and my best friends jerked each other off last night" is replayed over and over, but as guys age they look to girls for real relationships. They are not gay and never were.

But for some reason some don&#39;t make that turn into wanting girls. They doesn&#39;t meant there is something wrong. It doesn&#39;t mean anything except they are gay. That young man probably never was gay. He just was 13.

Now, there is talk of young men who are kicked out of their houses because they are gay. Many commit suicide. Many lose everything they have.

Let&#39; s be serious. Would they do this if they had a choice of who they like sexually? I don&#39;t think so. The Duke of Widnsor gave up the throne of England for his true love. He made a wise choice. He never would have been happy as King without his true love.

These gay guys have hell to pay for their preferences. Regardless whether you think it is right or wrong, sin or no sin, let&#39;s be truthful, the vast majority have been quoted as saying that they would change their orientation to straight in a heartbeat if they could. They can&#39;t.

So let&#39;s accept who they are. They have two choices. They can be celibate or they can be in a relationship with another guy. That is it. My church does teach that it is a sin to engage in homosexual behavior. It is not a sin to be gay. I don&#39;t agree with my church on this particular issue. But the point is that the church doesn&#39;t consider what turns you on as being a sin. It is what you do with it that determines sin.

So, when I see a gay couple, I smile and say wonderful. It is so sad to see gay men going from one man to another only to be left completely alone when they get too old to turn on the guys at the gay bar. Such a life. It is hardly one that anyone would want to select.

My heart goes out to you guys who are gay or bi and want so much to live in a straiht world. I have done it. But it didn&#39;t change who turns me on.

Now the problem I am facing is I realize that life is short. I have desires to try some of that out while I still can. Yet I have commitments to my family. The other men my age are looking at the women wanting one last chance. So it is a matter of disclipline to honor your commitments of marriage on this matter.

If you are completely gay and abolutely just can&#39;t think of enjoying sex with a woman. Then don&#39;t. Unless you find a women who just wants an escort and someone to live with to avoid being alone and you and she are compatable as friends, leave marriage alone. Dont&#39; mess up another person&#39;s life.

I have my doubts that being gay is a sin or even acting on it if done properly could possibly be a sin. But I know that knowingly messing up someone else&#39;s life is definitely a sin. And one a lot worse than any sin being gay could ever be.

Now if you are bisexual, that changes things. You have the capacity to fall in love with someone of either sex. You will always be attracted to people of both sexes. But the totally straight guy certainly notices the beautiful girls that pass by. The bisexual guy just notices both the beautiful girls and guys that pass by. But he, if he chooses to. can have a successful marriage.

Bottom line. If you are really totally gay, don&#39;t mess up a young lady&#39;s life. It just isn&#39;t fair to her.

And teenagers changing from gay at age 13 to straight is questionable. It sounds more like a part of the natural maturation process. I just don&#39;t believe that anyone can change a man 19 years or so and older from gay to straight short of a devine supernatural act from God up above.

Best of luck to both of you guys as you work through your life and to the guys reading this. Remember if you are straight or bi, you can forsake all others and have a succcessful marriage with a women. If you a are completely gay and are rupulsed at the idea of sex with the lady you are dating, please don&#39;t marry her. Let her have a chance at having a life with someone else.

 

[lacsap1]

Originally posted by Volt@Jan 11 2005, 07:10 AM
But I&#39;ve got my own story, and it&#39;s quite an incredible one. Porn, witchcraft, child abuse, violent father, suicide, depression, Homosexuality, transexuality, satanism. All I can say is that I&#39;ve been there, done that, and I&#39;ve seen where those roads go, and I refuse to down them

[post=273865]Quoted post[/post]​

It&#39;s really a miracle as Freddie stated;

Transsexuals are people who want to change their gender through surgery, and then live their lives just like any other man or woman. Being gay doesn&#39;t make you a transsexual, and being a transsexual doesn&#39;t make you gay&#33;
Strange that you combine Homosexual and Transsexual in one sentence, what would make this of you ? After six years 100% straight ? It must be a miracle.

Cale,

Dr. Alfred Kinsey, the world&#39;s best-known sex researcher, concluded from his research that almost nobody is purely straight or purely gay. He found that most people have some attraction to the same sex during their lives, and that many people have some sexual experiences with the same sex, or with both sexes.
Think of it as a range, or "sexual continuum." At one end of the range are many people who are attracted only to the same sex. At another end of the range are many people who are attracted only to the opposite sex. And in between are people who are attracted to both sexes. So wherever you are on that continuum, you&#39;ve got plenty of company. There are gay people all around you - you just can&#39;t always tell who they are. They&#39;re White, Black, Asian, Hispanic etc, etc. They&#39;re Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, and Buddhist. They&#39;re old and young, rich and poor. They&#39;re teachers and students, secretaries, ministers and rabbis, store clerks, mechanics, business people, police officers, politicians, and athletes.
And when they were teenagers, most of them probably felt the same way you do.

No one knows exactly how human sexual orientation - gay or straight - is determined. Most experts think it&#39;s a matter of genetics, biology, and environment - that a person&#39;s sexual orientation could be set before birth or as early as two or three years old. Dr Kinsey points out that homosexuality exists in virtually every animal species that has been exhaustively studied. Homosexuality is as much a part of nature as heterosexuality. Not only is it as natural, it&#39;s as healthy to be gay as to be straight, no matter what some people might tell you.

The American Psychiatric Association declared in 1973 that homosexuality is not a mental disorder or disease, and the American Psychological Association says that it would be unethical to try to change a gay person&#39;s sexual orientation.
So many people fail to understand that homosexuality is not a lifestyle that is chosen. The &#39;choice&#39; was made at birth.

Ignore the stereotypes. Some people fit them, some don&#39;t. Be yourself.
Goodluck.

 

[jonb]

Either way, if you think of heterosexual intercourse as forced, it&#39;s not fair to her to continue the charade. And Volt? Ex-Gay Ministries is a sham. Sorry, but teh majority of these ex-gays are there in glory holes, sucking, fucking, jerking, being sucked, being fucked, or being jerked, just like prominent ex-gay John Paulk. At least if they came out they might form a LTR rather than a string of one-time sexual partners; I don&#39;t advocate a string of one-time sexual partners to any sexual orientation, for obvious reasons.

 

[Cale]

I&#39;m blown away, yet again, and at a loss for words.

Zora -- thank you for your thoughtful responses. Last night, I thought for sure you were just an insensitive feminazi; now I see that not only do you understand problems like these much better than most (including myself), but you know the one and only solution to them: telilng the truth. I had no idea just how much grief you endured for your husband&#39;s lack of honesty, and I appreciate your having shared a story so personal.

A lot of you keep quoting my sharp "raping myself" remark. In hindsight, I think those words were probably too strong. It&#39;s true that I don&#39;t fantasize about women, but...would I not enjoy having sex with them? I can&#39;t say for sure. I really admire gorgeous women just as much as the next guy. Now, does that mean I&#39;m bisexual? Probably not.

Converting to heterosexuality has always been an impossibility in my mind, based on the very same studies some of you remarked on. And being an atheist, I won&#39;t be counting on divine intervention to do it.

I will be confessing my true feelings to my girlfriend soon. Probably not tomorrow in class, but when the moment is right and we have time to talk about it and think about it -- I&#39;m hoping this weekend will present a good opportunity. I&#39;m not going to tell her that I&#39;m flat-out gay, because I&#39;m obviously not even comfortable with that idea myself, as true and resounding as it may be. Rather, I&#39;m going to tell her what I know to be true: that my sexuality is in a different place than I&#39;d subconsciously led her to believe, and it&#39;s entirely up to her if she wants to continue in a relationship with a man who is still trying to figure out his own place in the world.

You know, it&#39;s funny because just today she was telling me (with a laugh) how two guys had asked her out in high school, then later confessed to be gay. Then she said, with a look of incredulity, "And my friend across the hall said she dated a guy for months and then he said he was gay&#33;"

Hoo boy. That was awkward.

.....

What my primary concern now is, ultimately, my future in life. Zora is right -- in the back of my mind, I really was looking for a magical "third option" between gay and straight. I realize no such option exists, but it seemed to be the only possible solution to my dilemma.

I guess all I can really hope for is that maybe someday I&#39;ll find love in another man (good GOD that was hard to type - I&#39;m still in denial, aren&#39;t I?).

I can be thankful I live in a community that is very open-minded and accepting of gays (Boulder), so that sounds like a good start. Eventually, I hope I&#39;ll work up the courage to come out to my family and friends -- even though I know many of them won&#39;t like it, and some may even cut off ties to me.

But rather than sit here every night depressed, bemoaning something I can&#39;t change, I&#39;m going to focus on my schoolwork and my career. That&#39;s the best thing I can do for myself right now. With time, I&#39;m sure I&#39;ll figure out what I really want to do with myself.

Thank you ALL. You all rock so much.

 

[madame_zora]

No, Cale, YOU rock so much&#33; I read your post twice and it almost made me cry&#33; I think what you are planning to tell your g/f is perfectly honest and beautiful, I am in awe of you, truly. I really do understand how hard it is to even contemplate doing such a thing, but you will grow from the experience in ways you can scarcely even imagine. What a wonderful thing to be so young, and even beginning to come to terms with yourself. In the end, it is ourselves than we have to look at when we wake up in the morning- you look proud at yourself and count yourself amoung the good guys, doing the right thing takes tenacity.

Take your time telling the rest of the world, do it when it seems to fit for you. I would never suggest making yourself feel too naked before your loved ones until you have the attitude of "So what, this is me- take it or leave it". I would not expect that to happen overnight, and you don&#39;t owe it to anyone to put your life on display in front of them.

As for loving a man, who knows what the future holds for any of us. I can&#39;t find a man to love either, so maybe we&#39;re not so far apart. Right now, most of the nurturing and fulfilling relationships in my life are with my women friends, and I call my life a happy one despite not having found my "soulmate". Different people get different gifts, I seem to have the gift of contented singleness at least for now. I don&#39;t advocate this choice for very many people because I don&#39;t really think most people are wired that way, and we come to our fullest life experiences through our relationships of all kinds. Just don&#39;t discount the value of your platonic relationships, the love you share there counts very much. Sometimes it is even better because sex is so very complicated, platonic realtionships don&#39;t have to "go away" like sexual realtionships seem to do when the sex is over.

Be very gentle with yourself for a time, don&#39;t make any rash decisions about how your whole future has to be, let time mold it with your guidance. Concentrating on work and school is a good thing, it will give you a sense of pride and accomplishment, but don&#39;t ignore the person inside you who needs attention too. Do some of the familiar things you like to do, whatever they are, to convince yourself that your whole life won&#39;t be turned upside down. Go to concerts, movies, take walks, whatever you do for your self-indulgence time. If you haven&#39;t really spent much time thinking about what it is you enjoy, perhaps try a few different things. I always find great peace in art and music, sometimes nature, and I make time for these things even when I&#39;d rather watch tv and be lazy because my inner self is worth feeding too.

When you truly begin to care about yourself, and can let go of the disappointment you feel, you will eminate a new light that will attract people to you. It may be then that people just start showing up in your life and all this work will seem to make sense. I wish you well. Stay here with us and post often, you have a lot to offer to us all. Jana

 

[KinkGuy]

Cale,
Take it from someone who married a woman and was absolutely, positively desperate to be "normal" and live the American dream. Didn&#39;t work. I spent several years working through the "problem" only to find out, being gay isn&#39;t a problem at all. I admitted/dealt with/accepted/embraced and FINALLY became my own man. We all resolve our own issues and adapt, grow and mature in our very own, individual, unique way. Have faith in yourself. No one else can make you complete if you aren&#39;t whole yourself. It will all work out and be resolved in the manner and in the time which works for YOU. Love yourself first then other people will too. It&#39;s a guarantee.

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by Cale@Jan 11 2005, 10:09 PM
I&#39;m blown away, yet again, and at a loss for words.

.

A lot of you keep quoting my sharp "raping myself" remark. In hindsight, I think those words were probably too strong. It&#39;s true that I don&#39;t fantasize about women, but...would I not enjoy having sex with them? I can&#39;t say for sure. I really admire gorgeous women just as much as the next guy. Now, does that mean I&#39;m bisexual? Probably not.

Converting to heterosexuality has always been an impossibility in my mind, based on the very same studies some of you remarked on. And being an atheist, I won&#39;t be counting on divine intervention to do it.

What my primary concern now is, ultimately, my future in life. Zora is right -- in the back of my mind, I really was looking for a magical "third option" between gay and straight. I realize no such option exists, but it seemed to be the only possible solution to my dilemma.

I guess all I can really hope for is that maybe someday I&#39;ll find love in another man (good GOD that was hard to type - I&#39;m still in denial, aren&#39;t I?).

But rather than sit here every night depressed, bemoaning something I can&#39;t change, I&#39;m going to focus on my schoolwork and my career. That&#39;s the best thing I can do for myself right now. With time, I&#39;m sure I&#39;ll figure out what I really want to do with myself.

Thank you ALL. You all rock so much.

[post=274117]Quoted post[/post]​

Cale,

I am proud of you. The decision you are making is so tough, yet the right thing to do. Concentrate on your studies. It is OK to date gay men while you are sorting things out. And if your girl friend wants to maintain a close committed platonic friendship that is OK too.

Main thing is don&#39;t make any commitments until you are ready. But part of being ready is to meet gay people. It is not dishonest to not tell everything you know. I doubt your parents and family are going to at the dining table have a conversation and turn the conversation to your sexuality and sexual preferences. But when the time is right you can tell them. Wait until you are sure of your sexuality if at all possible. Don&#39;t burn bridges before you get to them and don&#39;t burn them after crossing them. You might have to backtrack. I don&#39;t mean by that not to cross them, just don&#39;t unnecessarily destory relationships and situations that aren&#39;t necessary to destroy.

If I can help you, let me know. I have been down this road and I chose to be the the straigtht world. But I enjoyed straight sex. I just dream of gay sex. You on the other hand are scared almost shitless about straight sex. But that doesn&#39;t mean that I don&#39;t completely understand. Even now, I think back at what I turned down. I had two gay lovers, both of whom I turned down to live with a woman. Now I wonder about what if... I think I would have made the same choice. My family is too important to me. My wife and I still love each other, but not sexually anymore. That part is over and done with. But we still love each other.

But each case is different. Just let me know how I can help you through all of this.

Again I admire your decision so much. I would say my prayers are with you but I realize you are an atheist. I still will say that, but I don&#39;t want to offend you on the subject of religion. I will respect your beliefs on religion as I know you will respect mine. Still as a believer in God. I think you would expect me to ask that diety that I believe in to be with you. For the record, I am not a gloom and doom right wing fundamentalist. I believe in a God that is still creating and when He finishes all will be perfect in this world or the next as the case will probalby be. My belief centers around what scientists have found out about brain waves and what we know about electricity. I don&#39;t believe in magic. But those brain waves live on is my personal belief. To me science affirms there is a master designer and it is found in the electrical currents that flow throughout the universe and those electrical currents have an IQ that is far above what the electrical currents in our own small heads have. I have great differences with those who believe in God that try to debunk what scientists are discovering. Everything is explainable. It is just that we don&#39;t understand it all. I kinow what atheism is and I wanted you to know what I believe about religion and God. You are very bright and are fully capable of coming to your own conclusions concerning life and after life and all of that.
Again Cale, you came to us for help. I am here through this forum or pm or e-mails. If you pm me you may have my e-mail address and my MSN messinger as well to chat about all that you are going through.

A new friend who really understands your situation. Been there, bought the T shirt and not ony saw the video, but directed the movie as well. Do I ever understand the heartbreak that you are having. But you are a guy with character and you will make it.

Freddie

 

[headbang8]

Cale,

Good to hear from you again. Now, I&#39;m gonna do two things to help you out.

First, like Jana said, I want to bust your balls. No need to do that for too long, because you&#39;re busting your own balls enough. But ball-busting is great fun, and makes racier prose, so assume the position and flop your &#39;nads out for a twist.

Second, I&#39;ll get back to new-age, group-hug, good-vibe, kinda stuff afterward. Too many people who dish out tough love, forget the love half of it.

Now, to bust your balls.

Courage. Where&#39;s yours?

You&#39;re gay. Deal with it. You can either let your sexuality defeat you, or you can master it and use it for your own ends. I suggest you make your god-given (or if you prefer, randomly generated) orientation work for you.

Put it to work? Yes. Use it for sexual pleasure. If you feel so inclined, use that sexual pleasure to achieve intimacy. You might love a woman, but if you&#39;re thinking about someone else when you&#39;re fucking her, then you&#39;re not intimate with her. And BOTH of you deserve the security and satisfaction that intimacy brings. It sounds obvious, but it needs to be said: a life without intimacy is lonely.

You talk about falling in love. I&#39;m gonna challenge you. Do you really know what love is? One of the things that love might be, Cale, is complete and utter reckless emotional abandonment of yourself to another human being. That doesn&#39;t sound like Cale and his sweet, smart, funny, wonderful but FEMALE friend.

You think men can&#39;t be sweet, smart, funny and wonderful, too? That describes half the gay men on the planet. I could be insulted by that frame of mind, Cale, if I didn&#39;t know you better.

You&#39;ve mentioned gay bath houses a couple of times. My advice is to get your ass into one and do what you&#39;ve clearly been dreaming about for most of your adult life. (Do it safely, of course--in a college town there is no shortage of safe-sex info, so get hold of some.)

You might not find that first experience of gay sex pleasant. So here&#39;s what you do. Go back until you have worked out what makes sex fun, pleasant and satisfying for you. Or join the gay students&#39; society. Or go to a gay bar and talk to any sweet, smart, funny, wonderful guy who takes your fancy. If you don&#39;t fancy any of them, don&#39;t fuck them. If you do, go for it.

Being a practising homosexual ain&#39;t a bed of roses, but being a non-practising homosexual is just dumb. I was dumb until I was 34, so take it from me.

The gay, married men on this board have told you of the high price they paid for the joy of a family. You can pay that price, or build a family that doesn&#39;t take such a toll on a gay dad--adopt, co-parent, or invent a completely new structure with like-minded people. But don&#39;t expect it to be handed to you on a plate. Gay men DO need to work harder to make these kind of families. Are you afraid of hard work, Cale? Even when you consider the rewards? No pain, no gain, even in straight relationships. And remember how much work is involved in living a lie. You&#39;re not just lying to your wife, either, but to your kids, your parents and everyone who crosses your path.

By the way, when you&#39;re in that bath house, KISS A MAN. You&#39;re going to kiss a lot of men in your lifetime, so learn to love it.

Just because you "can&#39;t imagine" ever loving a man doesn&#39;t mean it&#39;s unimaginable. Take the shackles off your imagination.

You&#39;re scared to dream, Cale. You might have to admit to yoursef that there are some things you can&#39;t control.

You&#39;ve bought someone else&#39;s dream because you&#39;re lazy. Emotionally lazy. Sexual passion is wild, overwhelming, and scary. It goes so far beyond sweet-smart-funny-wonderful-charming that the two don&#39;t even live on the same planet. Your problem isn&#39;t homosexuality, it&#39;s emotional constipation&#33; Stop using your emotional energy to beat yourself up and use it to play the hand nature dealt you. A wise old (straight) man once said to me, "you&#39;ll never get anywhere in life with a puckered asshole". Apt, in so many ways.

You&#39;re afraid of coming out. Of course you are. We all were. It isn&#39;t going to be any harder for you that it was for us. Probably, you&#39;ll find it easier than many, living in a progressive college town.

Living in the closet is like having a tooth that needs to be pulled. You can either get it out with one burst of short sharp pain, or you can let it ache forever, only to have it fall out later under conditions of worse pain and suffering.

You&#39;ll find that it hurts less than you think, and a life without the pain is better than you were ever capable of imagining while you suffered.

OK, enough busting your balls.

It&#39;s really easy to know rationally what to do. You&#39;ve come to that conclusion, it&#39;s obvious. Your sexuality ain&#39;t going to go away, and you&#39;ll need to make some kind of a gay life sooner or later.

But actually facing the inevitable is another matter. You can&#39;t overcome your fear simply by recognising that it&#39;s irrational. Everyone gets comfortable with the idea in his own way, at his own pace. You may be frustrated with yourself--that&#39;s normal. But take it easy and don&#39;t beat yourself up about it. I suspect you&#39;ll progress faster that way.

That&#39;s why, personally, I am not as sick of your whining as you are of whining it. It&#39;s a pleasure to watch, in fact. Because with every bitch, bleat and moan, we can see you getting a little bit closer to acceptance. Keep up the good work.

I&#39;ll make the same offer which many others on this board have made. You&#39;re most welcome to drop me an email if you want to chat.

Peace, love and good vibes. Group hug, anyone? Anyone else need his balls busted?


hb8


P.S. I&#39;m just using the phrase "bust your balls" figuratively, of course. I seem to remember from another post that you had a bit of ball trouble in your youth, so forgive my use of the phrase.

 

[rsny845]

Amazing sharing and support in this thread, really a model for human interaction.

 

[jonb]

Yeah, I wish all gay men who are in the middle of the relationship when they figure it out could be so honest. My advice to any men who are reading this and in a relationship but not really attracted to her, or to women in general, is this: The American dream is just that, a dream. Even if you pretend to be straight, that does not mean your life will be a 50s sitcom. So, to calm all your fears about being gay:

Homophobia Well, to paraphrase John Ashcroft, if you pretend to be straight, the terrorists win.
AIDS Not all gay men have AIDS. You most likely won&#39;t get AIDS from just one case of unprotected sex. Use condoms, or just avoid the oral/anal scene altogether in favor of mutual masturbation and frottage. (That&#39;s rubbing your penis on your partner&#39;s body.)
Relationships Despite the hype, there are plenty of gay men seeking long-term relationships. If there weren&#39;t, do you honestly think there&#39;d be any debate about gay marriage? If you find such a man, that&#39;ll put your fears of AIDS to rest too.
Children If your paternal instincts get the better of you, there&#39;s always adoption, new reproductive technologies, or helping raise your siblings&#39; children. Or you can get a job as a teacher or a counselor and help mentor children.

 

[13788]

surf221: it&#39;s probably pretty important that you tell your girlfriend about this...i mean it seems like she loves you too...but maybe since she&#39;s not really in the picture sexually, maybe it&#39;s best that you guys took a break or something...then you could figure out if you&#39;re gay or not...and as a straight guy, it wouldn&#39;t kill me/ weird me out if one of my friends turned out to be gay...so don&#39;t keep it all in like this, you&#39;re just going to end up worse off then before...i obviously dont speak with experience to being gay and coming out of the closet, but you should really be careful with your girlfriend&#39;s feelings

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by jonb@Jan 12 2005, 05:37 PM
Yeah, I wish all gay men who are in the middle of the relationship when they figure it out could be so honest. My advice to any men who are reading this and in a relationship but not really attracted to her, or to women in general, is this: The American dream is just that, a dream. Even if you pretend to be straight, that does not mean your life will be a 50s sitcom. So, to calm all your fears about being gay:

Homophobia AIDS Relationships Children If your paternal instincts get the better of you, there&#39;s always adoption, new reproductive technologies, or helping raise your siblings&#39; children. Or you can get a job as a teacher or a counselor and help mentor children.

[post=274322]Quoted post[/post]​

Cale,

I only copied parts of Jonb&#39;s remarks. He had some good ones in his previous post as well.

In that first post, Jonb pointed out the problems wit the "Ex Gay Ministries" Baring a miracle from God, you are not going to change your sexual orientation. Those ministries only work on guys who are bisexual and can choose to live in either world or both as far as orientation goes. And the miracles? Miracles are supernatural. Not all believe in them. But I think we can all agree that if God does a supernatural miracle, you won&#39;t need an "Ex Gay Ministries" for support. a Jonb is right that if you are gay, you need to follow the same standards of conduct that straight people follow. You should have real dates, and only have sex with those that you truly love. No one, regardless of sexual orientation, will stay happy very long just hoping into one bed after another and not even knowing the names o the people they are having sex with. Avoid that kind of behavior. Best of luck on the dating scene.

I am sad to report that one of the federal Court of Appeals has held up the lower court ruling that states can deny adooption to a person just because they are honosexual. This is very tragic. Especially when both parents die and one of them has a sibling that is homosexual. That uncle or aunt can&#39;t take the orphaned children. Oh no, they will be toss to and fro through foster care instead, unless there is another person that steps up and takes responsibility. Why can&#39;t people see how redeculous this is. Jonb thanks for pointing out that gay couples can adopt a baby. And they could until this week. Now some people in every state is going to rush to implement this in their state. Absolutely absurd.

Jonb again thanks for your wonderful research. Sorry the courts have begun the process of wiping out adoption rights just this week.

I never cease to be amazed at your excellent recall of statistics and definnitions and such.

Thanks for reading this this post. To summerize it is to say that what Jonb is saying is absolutely correct, except for this new problem that was announced yesterday about adoption by the courts. His posts were posted before this horrific announcement by the Court of Appeals.