headbang8
Admired Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2004
- Posts
- 1,628
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- 12
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- 821
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- 333
- Location
- Munich (Bavaria, Germany)
- Sexuality
- 80% Gay, 20% Straight
- Gender
- Male
Cale,
Glad you found some of my posts helpful. Especially since they haven't always been phrased in the kindest possible way!
I've been enriched by participating in this thread, reading diverse points of view from a thoughtful and generous group of people. That we disagree underscores the need for you to arrive at your own conclusions, and be true to yourself.
You may imagine that we tire of reading about your ups and downs, but your story rings true for so many of us, gay or straight, who have faced pressures to conform. For every Cale who talks about his personal journey in public, there are a thousand who don't have the guts or strength of character to speak up; your public struggle informs them, too. Ironically, by starting this thread, you've probably helped scores of anonymous readers out of the closet already. Now, physician, heal thyself.
Let's get back to being unkind...er, helpful.
You might have thought that last sentence a cheap joke. But maybe it gets closer to the nub of the matter than it might first seem. (Please be patient if I get to the point in a round about way)
I, too, came from an unkind family. One which had no patience for the personal feelings of its members. Any eccentricity--or even a voiced desire for some pleasure which was out of the ordinary--was scorned.
Reading between the lines, this strikes me as the heart of your problem.
You've talked about your hopes and dreams for love. Yet scratch the surface and we hear that these hopes and dreams are really born of fear. Fear of rejection by siblings as the "weird little brother", who will never be invited around to their places; fear of public embarassment; disapproval by parents whom you assume will be mildly homophobic, at least to begin with.
The wife, career, 2.3 kids and membership in the country club sounds like the only sure-fire way to escape their censure, or at the very least, not incur their distaste. Are they really THAT cruel in their judgements of people? Have you learned your lessons about love from people who don't know how?
Maybe homosexuality isn't the real problem. What would happen if, say, you dropped out of college and bummed around for a couple of years? Do you imagine they'd disapprove in the same way you imagine they'd disapprove of your sexuality? What if you became addicted to drugs? Do you think they'd find it in their hearts to help you, or would they never forgive you for needing their help to go clean? What if you adopted a political stance opposing theirs? Would you be met with love, or grudging acceptance? Is your family capable of tolerating--even imagining--diversity within its ranks? Will they hold any dissent against you?
Of course, families never call this kind of silent bullying "cruel". It's "maintaining high standards". It's not being "emotionally self indulgent". It's not being childish; being mature and above it all. It's thinking that we're better than other people.
I may be wrong, but that's the impression I get from reading your posts--or, perhaaps, misreading them. Maybe you underestimate your family--I kinda hope that's the case.
But in any event, Cale, you need to give yourself a much better, deeper and more substantial idea of what love really is. When you describe your "girlfriend", I hear typical "beard" terms--"smart", "funny", and (my favourite) "enchanting". They sound distinctly distant, judgemental, and unpassionate
How do you learn what love is? Find some. Feel it. Experiment. Good love, bad love, fleeting love, clumsy love, wild animal love, unrequited love, comfortable and uncomfortable love, thrilling love; love that has the tinge of danger about it. (But always practised safely, of course).
For better or worse, that means getting comfortable with the sexual dimensions of love. (And here's where I dissent from the prevailing opinion of the group.).
You wrote earlier that emerging from a locker room, you had an "irresistable urge" to go to a nearby bath house. I think you might have described it, in a perfect Freudian slip, as "handy".
In your case, Cale, no matter what the sex turned out to be like, I think giving in to any irresistable urge you have, would be an emotionally healthy thing for you. Do something rash. Enjoy it a lot, a little, or not at all. Forgive yourself for it. Do it again, maybe. But do something. Unleash the spirit. Sex is a great tool for male liberation. Unlock the shackles. Clear out the tubes. Even if it isn't love, it's pleasure. And the simple act of sharing one's body demands at least a modest degree of open-ness; to another human being, and to ones' self. There's no way to preserve (in your words) your "dignity" when you're getting your rocks off. I think you need to learn that there's no such thing as a dignified way to satisfy a truly irresistable urge. And no dignified way to be truly in love.
You may wish to wait for the perfect moment to lose your virginity, but you won't know whether it was the perfect moment til it has passed. Most people lose their virginity under less than ideal circumstances, and frankly, even sub-optimal is better than not at all, IMHO. I lost my heterosexual virginity at the age of 22 to a woman with whom I had a relationship very much like you and your girlfriend. It was awful, and felt wrong. (she loved it, though, or so she said). But having the experience really paved the way to some quite nice straight sex partners. I lost my homosexual virginity at the age of 34, and that was one of the worst fucks of my life. He was wrong for me, but I wouldn't have known had I not done the deed.
"Experiment"...you chose the word well. There's no such thing as a "failed" experiment. An experiment in which the null hypothesis stands is still a useful one. It teaches the experimenter a lesson, and gets him closer to the truth. Sexual experimentation is natural and healthy.
Yes, you should take your time when it comes to entering the gay world. But I really feel that some sexual experience--gay, straight, or anything in between--will set you on the road to self-awareness, self acceptance, spiritual liberation, and peace of mind. Why wait?
Sorry to prattle on, again, at such length. Maybe I have jumped to the wrong conclusion because of my own experiences. Take what's useful, and ditch the rest. As I said before, happy to exchange email with you if you like.
And I doff my hat to all the others who have contributed to this thread so far...Mr Grasso and Freddie53, I'd love to buy you both a beer someday to pick your brains. But keep your hands above the table--I'm a married man!
hb8.
Glad you found some of my posts helpful. Especially since they haven't always been phrased in the kindest possible way!
I've been enriched by participating in this thread, reading diverse points of view from a thoughtful and generous group of people. That we disagree underscores the need for you to arrive at your own conclusions, and be true to yourself.
You may imagine that we tire of reading about your ups and downs, but your story rings true for so many of us, gay or straight, who have faced pressures to conform. For every Cale who talks about his personal journey in public, there are a thousand who don't have the guts or strength of character to speak up; your public struggle informs them, too. Ironically, by starting this thread, you've probably helped scores of anonymous readers out of the closet already. Now, physician, heal thyself.
Let's get back to being unkind...er, helpful.
You might have thought that last sentence a cheap joke. But maybe it gets closer to the nub of the matter than it might first seem. (Please be patient if I get to the point in a round about way)
I, too, came from an unkind family. One which had no patience for the personal feelings of its members. Any eccentricity--or even a voiced desire for some pleasure which was out of the ordinary--was scorned.
Reading between the lines, this strikes me as the heart of your problem.
You've talked about your hopes and dreams for love. Yet scratch the surface and we hear that these hopes and dreams are really born of fear. Fear of rejection by siblings as the "weird little brother", who will never be invited around to their places; fear of public embarassment; disapproval by parents whom you assume will be mildly homophobic, at least to begin with.
The wife, career, 2.3 kids and membership in the country club sounds like the only sure-fire way to escape their censure, or at the very least, not incur their distaste. Are they really THAT cruel in their judgements of people? Have you learned your lessons about love from people who don't know how?
Maybe homosexuality isn't the real problem. What would happen if, say, you dropped out of college and bummed around for a couple of years? Do you imagine they'd disapprove in the same way you imagine they'd disapprove of your sexuality? What if you became addicted to drugs? Do you think they'd find it in their hearts to help you, or would they never forgive you for needing their help to go clean? What if you adopted a political stance opposing theirs? Would you be met with love, or grudging acceptance? Is your family capable of tolerating--even imagining--diversity within its ranks? Will they hold any dissent against you?
Of course, families never call this kind of silent bullying "cruel". It's "maintaining high standards". It's not being "emotionally self indulgent". It's not being childish; being mature and above it all. It's thinking that we're better than other people.
I may be wrong, but that's the impression I get from reading your posts--or, perhaaps, misreading them. Maybe you underestimate your family--I kinda hope that's the case.
But in any event, Cale, you need to give yourself a much better, deeper and more substantial idea of what love really is. When you describe your "girlfriend", I hear typical "beard" terms--"smart", "funny", and (my favourite) "enchanting". They sound distinctly distant, judgemental, and unpassionate
How do you learn what love is? Find some. Feel it. Experiment. Good love, bad love, fleeting love, clumsy love, wild animal love, unrequited love, comfortable and uncomfortable love, thrilling love; love that has the tinge of danger about it. (But always practised safely, of course).
For better or worse, that means getting comfortable with the sexual dimensions of love. (And here's where I dissent from the prevailing opinion of the group.).
You wrote earlier that emerging from a locker room, you had an "irresistable urge" to go to a nearby bath house. I think you might have described it, in a perfect Freudian slip, as "handy".
In your case, Cale, no matter what the sex turned out to be like, I think giving in to any irresistable urge you have, would be an emotionally healthy thing for you. Do something rash. Enjoy it a lot, a little, or not at all. Forgive yourself for it. Do it again, maybe. But do something. Unleash the spirit. Sex is a great tool for male liberation. Unlock the shackles. Clear out the tubes. Even if it isn't love, it's pleasure. And the simple act of sharing one's body demands at least a modest degree of open-ness; to another human being, and to ones' self. There's no way to preserve (in your words) your "dignity" when you're getting your rocks off. I think you need to learn that there's no such thing as a dignified way to satisfy a truly irresistable urge. And no dignified way to be truly in love.
You may wish to wait for the perfect moment to lose your virginity, but you won't know whether it was the perfect moment til it has passed. Most people lose their virginity under less than ideal circumstances, and frankly, even sub-optimal is better than not at all, IMHO. I lost my heterosexual virginity at the age of 22 to a woman with whom I had a relationship very much like you and your girlfriend. It was awful, and felt wrong. (she loved it, though, or so she said). But having the experience really paved the way to some quite nice straight sex partners. I lost my homosexual virginity at the age of 34, and that was one of the worst fucks of my life. He was wrong for me, but I wouldn't have known had I not done the deed.
"Experiment"...you chose the word well. There's no such thing as a "failed" experiment. An experiment in which the null hypothesis stands is still a useful one. It teaches the experimenter a lesson, and gets him closer to the truth. Sexual experimentation is natural and healthy.
Yes, you should take your time when it comes to entering the gay world. But I really feel that some sexual experience--gay, straight, or anything in between--will set you on the road to self-awareness, self acceptance, spiritual liberation, and peace of mind. Why wait?
Sorry to prattle on, again, at such length. Maybe I have jumped to the wrong conclusion because of my own experiences. Take what's useful, and ditch the rest. As I said before, happy to exchange email with you if you like.
And I doff my hat to all the others who have contributed to this thread so far...Mr Grasso and Freddie53, I'd love to buy you both a beer someday to pick your brains. But keep your hands above the table--I'm a married man!
hb8.
