Ending circumcision

[pichulon]

Unfortunately Mumzi, there is no one simple answer. I had a friend back in time that had to go through the painfull surgery at about 23. He had phimosis and he had to go through the surgery. I remember him telling me how much he wished it was done back when he was born.
That is the difficult part, once an adult, it is a difficult procedure, full of discomfort and other inconvineinces like days of work. If a parent is requesting it for his child with all the best intentions, not for a religious thing, but for legitimate health concerns, that parent is not doing anything more than looking for a better future for his son.
In my case, I do not have grudges, bitterness, nor any resentment against my parents and doctors for having put me through circumcision. My penis does not look bad, and, if I gained something, is the complete free lifestyle, no special care for my penis, I just shower and dry off. After peing, no special care.
Your point is valid, but not absolute.Many men in this world are happy circumcees, and to wait untill the individual is an adult could prove a problematic situation. Having a circumcision as an adult is not fun.

There is no advantage in having a prepuce, and there is no real disadvantage in having it, except certain hygiene and phimosis circumstances which are not going to happen to everyone with an uncircumcised penis, but, which is concern enough for some parents to think about it. Yes, the kid is not a concenting adult, and this kid will not be a concenting adult for the next 18 years. Should we wait untill he is 18 to ask him about what school he wants to go??, what languages to study and anything else??
Parents act in the best interest of their child, nothing is done, at least in the circumcision department, with an intent to inflict harm or disadvantage.

 

[pichulon]

yes, but you're a fucking retard. we already know that everything you say runs counter to the basic tenets of human dignity, so there was really no point to reminding us.

And you are a motherfucking asshole!!!
I am going to treat you the way you are treating me.
If you can not accept that other people have a different opinion, and, if you think that I can only participate by posting "what you want to hear", then you are in for a bitter experience
I will pay your insults with insults. That is the way you like it.

 

[B_Stronzo]

yes, but you're a fucking retard. we already know that everything you say runs counter to the basic tenets of human dignity, so there was really no point to reminding us.

It's not essential you like him Rock but sheesh, 'fucking retard' ?? I think it's verging on an attack at his intrinsic worth...

braindead

I don't really see the use of denigrating anyone so... it seems not really "cricket" you know?

 

[GoneA]

And you are a motherfucking asshole!!!
I am going to treat you the way you are treating me.
If you can not accept that other people have a different opinion, and, if you think that I can only participate by posting "what you want to hear", then you are in for a bitter experience
I will pay your insults with insults. That is the way you like it.

...pichulon, just out of curiosity, you do make a mental note of all the things you post, right?

 

[Lex]

This place just doesn't seem right unless two members are arguing, huh?


SIGH.

 

[madame_zora]

This place just doesn't seem right unless two members are arguing, huh?


SIGH.

Two? Are you daft, you braindead shitcricket? :biggrin1:

I think our reputation would have warranted higher numbers...

 

[Snozzle]

the performance of such surgery at a time when he ( child) will not really feel it

Turn the volume up.

 

[IntactMale]

Pichulon, think about this:

In America the cancer you are most likely to get is colon cancer. Do you think we should remove the colon at birth?

The chances of getting penile cancer are very small. If that's a reason to get circumsized then you should have your colon removed at birth too since the risk of getting it is so much higher.

You suggest that we should cause pain unnecessarily to newborn babies so that they can avoid a minimal risk of the phimosis?

You could get brain cancer, should I cut off your head?

 

[Snozzle]

He had phimosis and he had to go through the surgery.

Quite probably not. On another board, there are a lot of guys who can't retract their foreskins and are fine with that. Others have found a variety of ways other than circumcision to make it retractable.

once an adult, it is a difficult procedure

And also a very rare procedure.

no special care for my penis, I just shower and dry off. After peing, no special care.

Just like intact guys.

Having a circumcision as an adult is not fun.

(Same link as before.) Tell us this baby is having fun.

There is no advantage in having a prepuce

Ask these women.

 

[Snozzle]

The chances of getting penile cancer are very small.

Less than the chances of a MAN getting BREAST CANCER. You may argue that women need breasts for feeding babies, but men have no such excuse. Off with them all! :yikes:

 

[arktrucker]

(sitting back with wooden spoon in hand after stirring shit) Damn guys, I didn't expect all this but it is good to see there are some who think as I do.

 

[madame_zora]

Quite probably not. On another board, there are a lot of guys who can't retract their foreskins and are fine with that. Others have found a variety of ways other than circumcision to make it retractable.

And also a very rare procedure.

Just like intact guys.

(Same link as before.) Tell us this baby is having fun.

Ask these women.

While I appreciate the effort, I really do- I doubt any of these pussies defending circumcision will have the balls to WATCH that video. I watched a procedure done by a Jewish Rabbi (I forget the actual name of the person who does circumcisions), and it was horrific. If there was any question before I saw what it really WAS, that did it for me. I'd encourage any pregnant mother to watch a few circumcisions before she decides to do that to her child. Anyone who doesn't think it's barbaric probably hasn't seen it with their own eyes. It's disgusting.

 

[pichulon]

Snoozle , Intactmale:

Guys. I am not advocating for all kids to be circumcised. What I am saying is that I lived a life as a circumcised man, and, I can not complain.
I did not invent the procedure, all I can say is my side of the story, a man with a circumcised penis.I never said that circumcision is the way to go, I explained my experience, and why I think parents resort to it, with the best of intentions.
I understand the cancer reference. Not everyone will have cancer, that is correct, so, in order to change the semi automatic circumcision program that goes on today in Europe and US ( from what I can read, ).. is education. The fact that I got circumcised, and the reasons I have learnt are the grounds for circumcision will not make me a automatic circumcision seeker when I have a kid. I will study the facts, I would like to know all the facts, from both sides, and then, if there is really no risk, or at least the risk is not that high, I would consider not circumcising my children.
There is 2 sides to every issue. If in fact circumcisions were a mere expense, if doctors go for automatic circumcisions in order to inflate the bill,or if it is not that real of a risk to go uncircumcised, then lets eliminate it from practice.
I just want what is best for any future children, and facts are what will make that decision an educated one. By exchanging points of view, we can understand each other better. Any older men that never had a problem with their uncircumcised penis around to let us know? What about those that had a bad experience?? Any circumcised men that have no regrets with being circumcised??? and any that regret having been circumcised???

 

[pichulon]

Talking about traumatic experiences, I have been circumcised, and I do not have any traumas, in fact, I do not recall anything about that procedure.
Any circumcised men recall the procedure ?? and if so, is there any psycologicall consecuence of the experience??

 

[madame_zora]

Anecdotal evidence is almost always useless, unless you have enough of a sample size to merit a discussion (say, 5000 or more). What you have to look at is broad range statistics to determine if the good outweighs the bad. Can there be health concerns? Yes, there can always be health concerns amoung the unclean. If a person isn't going to wash their genitals, I don't think that's a good reason to snip bits of them off. It means they need to get some soap and water and learn to use it.

We've had tons of guys telling us they were happy with their circumcision, unhappy with them, loved their natural cocks, and even a few who wanted circumcision as an adult. None of these opinions go to the heart of the matter, which is this- should this be decided by someone else FOR you? No one's asking how you feel about your dick, they're asking do you think a man has the right to decide?

I, as always, come out on the side of pro-choice. Here's some food for thought:


http://www.circumstitions.com/reasonsnotto.html

 

[BarebackJack]

So, the baby boy is ripped from the comfort of the womb and beaten... while we're at it let's emasculate him too...

Honestly, my "crux of the issue" is that the people deciding that the child should be circumcised are not the people who will A) have to live with and look at the results for the rest of their lives, and B) use the damn thing. Therefore it should not be the decision of anyone but the owner of the penis to make.

Yes, adult circumcision undoubtedly hurts tremendously (shiver), but the adult is also more capable of two things: looking after and caring for the healing wound, and communicating to his doctor any problems that may arise from said elective surgery. Also, they are less likely to pee their pants or get fecal matter in the healing wound. Babies are COMPLETELY dependent on an adult to handle these concerns, and adults have a lot more to address in day to day life than constantly checking on the health of their kid's mutilated peepee.

Also, dick cancer, smegma, and other such maladies can be easily avoided in the modern age by practicing proper hygiene. If you don't brush your teeth they will rot out. If you don't wash your damn dick, it will rot too.

Let Pichilon go ahead and have his kids' dicks tampered with if he feels so strongly about it. For the rest who may have some compassion for their kids and a sense that the child has rights as an up-and-cumming adult, let the children (aka penis owners) make their own decisions once they reach adulthood.

Oh, and keep in mind that doctors won't try to talk you out of circumcision when each one they do pads their paycheck.

 

[rich-9.8]

Also, dick cancer, smegma, and other such maladies can be easily avoided in the modern age by practicing proper hygiene. If you don't brush your teeth they will rot out. If you don't wash your damn dick, it will rot too.

Let Pichilon go ahead and have his kids' dicks tampered with if he feels so strongly about it. For the rest who may have some compassion for their kids and a sense that the child has rights as an up-and-cumming adult, let the children (aka penis owners) make their own decisions once they reach adulthood.

Oh, and keep in mind that doctors won't try to talk you out of circumcision when each one they do pads their paycheck.

Pad the paycheck? Not on the NHS it doesn't, which is probably why we do far less of them in Britain. If there's no health issue like a phimosis, then the NHS will not circumcise kids, as one irate muslim father found out from a paediatrician I know (the father actually got pretty agressive when he was told the NHS wouldn't perform the unnecessary operation).

As for the hygiene/health issue; a lot of people will tell you the circumcsed men are less likely to catch/transmit STIs or HIV/AIDS. This is unmitigated bullshit. STI stats are unreliable as not all diseases are recorded for all coutries under routine surveillance. A quick look at the HIV prevalence in various countries should tell us something though:

India 0.9%
USA 0.6%
UK 0.01%
Denmark 0.005%
Israel 0.0025%
Germany 0.0025%
(www.avert.org)

Western Europe has much lower rates of circumcision and much lower rates of HIV than the USA. To compare Israel to the USA though, I would have to say that circumcision status doesn't have much effect on HIV. I think cultural and societal factors play a much larger part.

The prepuce is a funtioning part of the penis, needed for lubrication, stimulation, etc. You can get by without it and may not even notice it's gone if you are circumcised at birth. As far as I can see, the only medical reason for routine circumcision is to reduce the risk of penile cancer. However, the incidence of penile cancer is fairly similar to that of appendicitis (2.7/100,000 to 2.5/100,000 respectively). I don't think that anyone is going to advocate an elective surgical appendicectomy for all children based on those odds. Before you give credence to circumcision reducing your risk of penile cancer 200 times, remember that this means reducing a realtively very small risk still further.

Lastly, all doctors have to go by the principle of informed consent. Even given the spurious benefits listed above, circumcision remains, usually, a cosmetic or religious procedure. Esentially, parents are consenting for their children to have an unnecesary procedure. To be honest, there is no way I would accept consent for a cosmetic procedure on behalf of a newborn boy, even from his parents.

For religious reasons, I think that at the time of the Bar Mitzvah (13) is old enough to consent for the procedure on those grounds. Maybe a little older (16) for purely cosmetic reasons. After all the boy isn't meant to be using it until 16, and I can't see surgeons giving boob jobs to 15 year-old girls either.

Potential conflicts of interest: For the record, I'm an uncircumcised medical house officer working in the NHS.

 

[rich-9.8]

Before anyone asks, I know the studies that show a reduced prevalence in circumcised men in Africa. I think this has ben shown to be due to most circumcised men there being Muslim, and so less likely to go with prostitutes and to have a safer lifestyle in general. Even if it did give some slight protection against HIV, it would confer no protection for other STIs. Condoms would give near 100% protection for both.

 

[Witlof]

I was born at a time and place where circumcision was around 50/50.
An ex of mine (of my age) was the son of a surgeon.
He was uncut.
'Nuff said.

 

[ManiacalMadMan]

Talking about traumatic experiences, I have been circumcised, and I do not have any traumas, in fact, I do not recall anything about that procedure.
Any circumcised men recall the procedure ?? and if so, is there any psycologicall consecuence of the experience??

My brother recalls it...of course he was in his 20's... He never seemed to be all that bothered by it but it was a personal choice for him I also find it questionable that a baby would really remember having this done Give me a moment now Pichulon as I must respond to the moderator known as Madame Zora and a few Bris Milah ceremonies I have been to