England...

[Freddie53]

Human migration has been so a part of human culture all the way back to prehistoric times. In almost every area of the world, we can trace when the ancestorrs of the area migrrated there.

The Celtics have so intermarried with the Angles/Saxons that it is imossible to pick them from the masses that inhabit England today.

The pattern is for something to happen to the native population: Disease, drop in population etc. Then a new group stil virale comes moving across the plain and settles in changing the culture. Quite often the 'old culture is only producing two or less children per couple while the new people are having 8 to 12 chidlren per couple. Not always that many, but certainly more than 2. The new group due to living in rough situations has a stronger gene pool which is also due to the fact that the new group saw death rates that allowed only the srongest and the fittest to survive.
Meanwhile the old group has weaken due to the fact that due to better living conditions nearly all in the older group are surviving.

This has been the pattern for human migration as long as their have been humans.

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

Probably why there's a fear of immigrants, I mean, I'm only 2nd gen and BOY am I virile!

As for people who live in this grand nation of ours. I have no complaints, but you have to remember, that culture is a dynamic ever-changing thing. Enlgish attitudes are very conservative yet with a liberal bias, so it can sound like "Urgh, I hate you people...but I really dig some of the things you bring!" especially around Banglatown!

In fact, one of the great things I personally like is that if you are a minority of ANY kind, you have a better deal than in the US, OK, there are some crazy PC laws, but on the whole, society is a lot more willing to accept differences.

Even if I do get shopkeepers to metaphorically shit their pants when out of London!

 

[Osiris]

I would like to say all of us have similar issues in our countries. We in the US have the Aryan Nation claiming that anyone of ethnicity should leave. We have those of us (myself included) who thinks if you come to the US, you at least make an attempt to communicate and function in the majority. Nothing chaps my hide more than knowing there are families out there that are legal citizens and they cannot get government benefits due to illegals getting them. And when I say illegals, I am not talking about the people legitimately trying to get their citizenship, I'm talking people who snuck in whether via Canada or Mexico and haven't made the attempt, but are drawing from the funds we pay into with our taxes that they are not paying since a majority of them are paid under the table.

To Manly, I was in Ireland and thought the people were just wonderful. This after I was warned not to go there because I was black. It gave me great pleasure to come back and tell the "well warners" they were full of shit.

To SpoiledPrincess (I still say it should be SagePrincess), I found my trip to Endgland wonderful and loved the pepole I met there as well. I was treated with decency and respect and would hope it had nothing to do with the clamming up due to my skin color.

At any rate, I can sympathize with both sides of this arguement.

 

[SomeGuyOverThere]

Can I have the 6 counties back now?

The what?

Can the partition of India / Pakistan be redone reasonably so there is less bloodshed?

That was sectarian violence caused by the local population when we left. Preventing that means keeping the Raj.

Can the Argentinias have Las Malvinas back now?

No, maggie Thatcher handbangged Argentina over the place, and won, so it's still ours.

Can Spain have Gilbralta back now so the Brits can't spy on everything the moves in and out of the Med?

Actually, we offered them Gibralter back, but the residents of Gibralter went nuts, as the vast majoirty of them consider themselves Brittish. IIRC the local population voted 99% in favour of retaining Brittish sovergeinty, and joined hands around the rock in protest.

Do you want me to continue?

Why bother?

Realistically the only way Britain could fix all the crap that goes on in it's former dominions is to invade them again and re-establish colonial rule.

And our military is no longer up to that.
Plus, if we did, everyone would get on their high horses about freedom etc.

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

There's a thin line between tolerance and having people take the piss. In general, I think we've got a good mix at the moment. It's the more conservative, less tolerant folks who keep bringing up the immigration card...it's true that there is a limit to the amount of peole we can allow onto our island, but we are not at that limit yet. As for illegal immigration...well, it's illegal...kick 'em out and let those know who want to come here illegally that the door is shut. - - For more of my opinion on his side of the argument see a previous post about employment problems for the illegals.

All I have left to say about it is this...how come they travel all the way acroos europe, over a dozen or so countries and risk their lives getting across the channel? One reason; they are aware that they can get free housing, free money etc, just by claiming 'asylum'. They don't stop in France, Germany, Austria or anywhere else in great numbers. (Of course, I'm not including those who are genuinly in need of asylum from real persecution etc.)

 

[ohgoonthen]

Princess, I totally understand what you are saying about people feeling unable to say anything for fear of being branded racist. However I feel I have to make a point.

I work in the leisure industry. When I have a queue of 150 people in front of me I get people tryng to jump it (folks of all creeds and colours).

I say to every one of them. 'Go and join the queue.'

I have had people use the race card and accuse me of not wanting to serve them because of their colour.

I tell them to 'Go join the queue and we can discuss my racism when you have waited your turn.' Not a single one of them has ever taken me up on the offer. They queued.

My point is. If we are afraid to engage rude people infringing other peoples rights they get away with it whatever their colour or ethnicity.

If we are particularly afraid to engage someone from a different country from us when they infringe other peoples rights then how the hell will they ever learn our culture or ever truly integrate?

Integration is a two way thing.

How can someone learn English if we don't talk to them?
How can someone learn our culture if we don't teach it to them?

I totally agree with you. Immigrants should integrate.

Let's help them?

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Manly, didn't I read in one of your other posts that you lived in our theiving country for a while?

Yup - I was also treated like shit by 80% of white English I met - but not by the immigrant communities. Funny that... I had a very high paying job and I paid a huge wad of taxes during my stay - I also had private health insurance. What was your point?

To Manly, I was in Ireland and thought the people were just wonderful. This after I was warned not to go there because I was black. It gave me great pleasure to come back and tell the "well warners" they were full of shit.

Ireland never had a real problem with racism - it was very mono-ethnic but welcoming - These days there are far more large healthy 'foreign' communities. There is a certain element that has a problem with this - they are the minority, thankfully. I'm glad you had a good experience.

The what?

The 6 counties of 'Nothern Ireland'

Realistically the only way Britain could fix all the crap that goes on in it's former dominions is to invade them again and re-establish colonial rule.

*sigh* You really believe that don't you? Man that is fucked up. I suppose the only way to solve the problem some black communities have in the US would be to reinstate slavery, would it? FFS!!

They don't stop in France, Germany, Austria or anywhere else in great numbers. (Of course, I'm not including those who are genuinly in need of asylum from real persecution etc.)

That's a piece of SHIT argument - and a piece of shit disclaimer.

To the latter, how do you fucking tell til they get there - where do you draw the line - what's wrong with the current assessment procedure, do you even know anything about it?

To the former - the bigotted French say exactly the same about the immigrants in France, the bigotted Germans say exactly the same about their immigrants, the bigotted Irish say exactly the same... blah blah blah...

 

[SpoiledPrincess]

I'm not quite sure what countries you think should be given back Manly, you mention ones which became colonies during Victoria's reign, but then seem to think that countries which were colonised during the reign of Elizabeth are somehow different, but want Ireland given back to the Irish despite there being a large English presence there from 1100 and something.

As I said previously Australia was stolen from the Aborigines, Northern America from the Native Americans, Britain was invaded by the Latins (although you seem to feel that Caesar's Rome is different to the Pope's Rome, but can't admit that Victoria's Britain is different to Elizabeth II's UK) vast areas of land have been stolen, they were stolen by the ancestors of the people who inhabit them now, and those people can't be held responsible and told they owe a debt, no more than you can be held responsible for a debt by your grandfather, although once again you chose to say this is different, it's a shorter period of time however it's exactly the same thing. You state fifteen century crimes cannot equate to nineteenth century crimes, why not? Just because you say so?

If we own a country yes we're reponsible for its upkeep, if we give it back we're no longer responsible for it's upkeep - a simple analogy, you own a house you have to look after it, you give it away the person who owns it maintains it and can't insist you look after their kids or fix it because you once owned it.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

SP - there's somethnig you don't understand about the whole Irish thing, clearly. The English never integrated, unlike the Roman and the Vikings and many other invading people on your island.

There was no English presence from 1100 - the people you are thinking of as English were Normans - same guys who were ruling the Anglo-Saxons at the same time. The Normans integrated. The English in Ireland were always there to rule and stayed separate - there was always a control, an oppression. It mainly starts with Henry VIII, the schism, Elizabeth I and the plantations - and goes on through history, Cromwell's attrocities the famine being 2 prime examples. From the reign of Elizabeth onwards it was always about the repression of the Catholic religion and the persecution of those who practised it.

The Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire were two very separate entities in history - one being broken down before the other rose up. The same is not true of Victoria's England and present day England. It is not just a question of time - but of cultural continuation - method of government, philosophy. England is STILL a sectarian state where only members of one religion can be the head of state. Britain, England more specifically, is hanging on by its nails to its 'glorious' colonial past, and with that refusal to modernise it naturally is hanging on to all the baggage of its past too.

Sorry SP, but please don't assume you know what I'm talking about when clearly you lack knowledge of the some of the facts that are key to my points. May I suggest some historical reading not on the UK government school curriculum. Yes - I know that sounds terribly condescending - it isn't actually meant to be. I have read the UK history school books and seen the skewed angled with which many docummentaries approach British history. You really need to step outside the propoganda and look to other sources for something a little closer to the truth.

 

[SpoiledPrincess]

In 1171 Henry II of England invaded Ireland, you can be as picky as you want about who's a Norman, who's a Saxon, who's a whatever, he was the King of England, and I'm sorry that you feel that someone who's not Irish can't be as well informed on Ireland as you are, maybe you have some prejudices of your own there you need to look at Manly.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

In 1171 Henry II of England invaded Ireland, you can be as picky as you want about who's a Norman, who's a Saxon, who's a whatever, he was the King of England, and I'm sorry that you feel that someone who's not Irish can't be as well informed on Ireland as you are, maybe you have some prejudices of your own there you need to look at Manly.

Henry would never had been in the position to grant John dominion over Ireland without the support of de Lacy (a Norman) - Strongbow was the other main non-Irish power on the island at the time - also a Norman. Without the Normans the Plantagenets would have gotten precisely nowhere. My point stands. The English were barely there - the Normans became Irish.

The most emminant scholar of the Irish language I know is an Englishman, the most emminant scholar of Irish literature I knew (before his sad death) was a Czech, the most emminant scholar of Irish folklore I know is a Frenchman. I have no prejudices that assume one needs to be a native of a place to understand it or its history. And I wasn't trying to have a personal dig at you SP. I just found your point over simplified.

 

[Drifterwood]

You don't hear the Fairies complaining (well I do of course). The Tuatha de Danann were culturally more advanced than the Firbolg, but does that excuse invasion?

Did you know that London Edinburgh and Dublin were all put on the map by invading rulers. And that is another thing that crosses my mind. Are there ultimately different levels of cultural influence and integration between an invading force of "aristocracy" and immigration of peoples at a much lower level of the social order?

 

[kalipygian]

The Jews who came to the UK in the 19th century integrated in society - to the point where the ultra orthodox now complan that they have become indistnguishable. Good.

Teh Poles, Ukranians etc whi came as post-1945 refugees integrated and showed touching gratitude for the reception their were given. I went to school with their sons - there were two Joswicks and a Jankowski in my class. I don't recall the slightest friction, let alone intolerance, as a result of their parentage. And its not about colour: at the grammar school I attended there were boys of Indian, Pakistani and West Indian descent whose parents saw to it that they were perfectly turned out in their uniforms and I remember them as models of good behaviour, politeness and hard work. I am not aware that there were any racial gibes or remarks.

But now in the UK there is a vocal minority which not only does not want to integrate in British society, but wants to overthrow it. Who can be blamed for being intolerant of that?

Today's news is that the UK government is to beg for the release of 5 men - not British citizens, but "residents" granted refugee status or exceptional right to remain in the UK - from Guantanamo. Surely rather than asking the USA to set these people free, we should be asking about the circumstances of their arrest, with a view to revoking their residency. After all, they were not arrested on the streets of Birmingham, Colchester or where ever else they find it convenient to call their home: they were taken prisoner in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan and ought at least to explain what exactly they were doing there.

Transferred to British custody, that is not necessarily release. (you can annoy MB and hold them on the Falklands or Gibar al Tariq.:tongue

The camp at Guantanamo is operating in violation of (among other things) the Geneva Conventions, it should be shut down.

 

[kalipygian]

Another bad analogy - 15th centuary crimes do not equte to 19th centuary crimes. Nowhere close.

Can I have the 6 counties back now?

Can the partition of India / Pakistan be redone reasonably so there is less bloodshed?

Can the Argentinias have Las Malvinas back now?

Can Spain have Gilbralta back now so the Brits can't spy on everything the moves in and out of the Med?

Do you want me to continue?

(I'll stay out of the six counties one)

The desire to partition India came primarily from Mohammed Ali Jinnah, not the Brits. It would have been better, IMHO, if it had not been done.

re the Falklands. In the 18th c, there was first some French, then some Spanish settlement. Mostly they were unoccupied. The Spanish left. Argentina tried to claim them after independance from Spain, in the 1820's, they were never in effective control, there were almost no settlers, it was attempted to use it as a penal colony. It was a hideout for Pirates.
The present inhabitants ancestors have been there from about 1830, I don't think they are desirous of being Argentine citizens. It never really was Argentine.

During the War of the Spanish Succession, Gibraltar was held on behalf of the Habsburg claimant, rey Carlos III, whom Britain was supporting. ( later Holy Roman Emperor Emperor Karl VI). At the end of that war it was recognized as a British possession by Spain, and in every treaty since.
Britain has, at various times, at the conclusion of wars, returned to Spain: Cuba, Florida, Minorca, the Phillipines.
It has been British for longer than it was part of the Kingdom of Spain. (1492-1709, since 1709) Would the inhabitants prefer to be Spanish subjects? Perhaps a trade could be made, don't know if the Britts are interested in Ceuta or Melilla.

 

[SomeGuyOverThere]

*sigh* You really believe that don't you? Man that is fucked up. I suppose the only way to solve the problem some black communities have in the US would be to reinstate slavery, would it? FFS!!

Suggesting that is fucked up.

If two groups of people want to kill each other once given independance, how the hell is that the fault of Britain? People accuse America of being the world police, and here you are suggesting Britain tries to fix all the problems in it's former colonies - how is that any better? How are all the problems our fault? or is guilt by association enough for you?

 

[frizzle]

England is tolerant to all people. Unless you're english or white.

 

[D_Humper E Bogart]

Eh?!