english-polish relations....

D_Andreas Sukov

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ive spent the last few days on a building site with two polish guys and a few english guys, and from this and previous conversations, some english resent the polish being here and working, most however dont seem to mind. i wonder is it the same there? i would ask the polish guys but i think saying "do you hate us as much as we hate you?" is the way to go about it and i thought it would be an intersting thing on here.
 

D_Ted Riding Hooded

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I can only comment on what I've seen in England too. (The places I've worked at, places friends/family have worked at in Wolvo..ie Goodyear tyres, Lucus, Every Ready, BOC, Yale, etc, most of which are no longer there.) I have to say the Poles who came after WWII are the hardest working, kindest people you could wish to meet! A couple of my best friends at school were of Polish descent.

The ones who've come over in the last five years, washing cars for £2 are not...'IMO'
 

Rugbypup

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The English are under an identity crisis at present.

What is it to be English and what rights does that entitle you to in England?

Sadly, very little to nothing any more.

This results in a hostility to other nationalities in your country. If you're finding it hard to survive in your own country despite working hard and being above board, it's easy to see how you would resent foreigners for being seemingly favoured, given help and exception by the government and the general system.

And the ever growing prevalence and acceptance of chav culture, the removal of celebration of English customs like St. Georges day on racist grounds and bingo... one great recipe for identity crises for your average Joe.

It's my fear that England is not far from a growing undercurrent of civil unrest. The more the national identity is repressed and forced to accommodate other customs and cultures above it's own, the greater the danger some nut from the BNP or such will gain the favour, even power... dare I say it, a civil war?

England, the English identity is seemingly lost.

Say what you like about the Americans, God's know we do, but they do have one great sense of national identity. All peoples in America have to swear allegiance to the country, there are some societies that are second and third generation born in England that do not consider them selves to be English because of it, favouring either religion as their nationality or the nationality of the forefathers. This is plain wrong to me.
 
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223790

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It's the same in Canada. Canadians bitch about the immigrants and migrant labourers taking jobs, yet Canadians won't do the jobs that they will do. They work extremely hard for low wages doing shit jobs that Canadians (myself included) wouldn't dream of doing. I don't begrudge anyone opportunity as long as they work hard, are honest and play by the rules.
 

D_Andreas Sukov

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The English are under an identity crisis at present.

What is it to be English and what rights does that entitle you to in England?

Sadly, very little to nothing any more.

This results in a hostility to other nationalities in your country. If you're finding it hard to survive in your own country despite working hard and being above board, it's easy to see how you would resent foreigners for being seemingly favoured, given help and exception by the government and the general system.

And the ever growing prevalence and acceptance of chav culture, the removal of celebration of English customs like St. Georges day on racist grounds and bingo... one great recipe for identity crises for your average Joe.

It's my fear that England is not far from a growing undercurrent of civil unrest. The more the national identity is repressed and forced to accommodate other customs and cultures above it's own, the greater the danger some nut from the BNP or such will gain the favour, even power... dare I say it, a civil war?

England, the English identity is seemingly lost.

Say what you like about the Americans, God's know we do, but they do have one great sense of national identity. All peoples in America have to swear allegiance to the country, there are some societies that are second and third generation born in England that do not consider them selves to be English because of it, favouring either religion as their nationality or the nationality of the forefathers. This is plain wrong to me.

cival war? no. civil unrest? almost certainly. i like civil unrest, when for the right reasons. sadly like g20 it will be taken over by anarchists and racists but seeing as the normal measures such as voting dont work, imo, it seems the best. im not talking samshing things. but should it come to it. than yes. i actually get excited to see people so into politics. in the uk its rare, which is a shame.
 

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There are issues. Typically Poles come to the UK for 1 to 2 years with a view to going back home. They work hard, do any overtime offered, live cheap, don't have families here to support, and they save money. Basically their year or two in the UK is to give them a financial start for life in Poland.

Very often they will undercut British workers on cost - and they can do this because they don't have the expenditure British workers have. Often they have skills British workers don't have. For starters they speak a foreign language. Often they have a trade. They have skills to offer Britain - and British workers rarely have skills to offer Poland, so in general you won't find Brits in Poland.

Yes there are problems, and the recession doesn't help. Arguably we benefit from their labour, but at the price of increased UK unemployment and money moved from Britain to Poland.
 

mitchymo

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The English are under an identity crisis at present.

What is it to be English and what rights does that entitle you to in England?

Sadly, very little to nothing any more.

This results in a hostility to other nationalities in your country. If you're finding it hard to survive in your own country despite working hard and being above board, it's easy to see how you would resent foreigners for being seemingly favoured, given help and exception by the government and the general system.

And the ever growing prevalence and acceptance of chav culture, the removal of celebration of English customs like St. Georges day on racist grounds and bingo... one great recipe for identity crises for your average Joe.

It's my fear that England is not far from a growing undercurrent of civil unrest. The more the national identity is repressed and forced to accommodate other customs and cultures above it's own, the greater the danger some nut from the BNP or such will gain the favour, even power... dare I say it, a civil war?

England, the English identity is seemingly lost.

Say what you like about the Americans, God's know we do, but they do have one great sense of national identity. All peoples in America have to swear allegiance to the country, there are some societies that are second and third generation born in England that do not consider them selves to be English because of it, favouring either religion as their nationality or the nationality of the forefathers. This is plain wrong to me.

I disagree that it may be so bad.

I in 30 years of living cannot remember st, georges day so whatever it was that happened on that day cannot have been based on anything great. As far as i know of the four nations we only celebrate the irish st patricks day and that is principly because it involves plenty of alcohol.

I don't blame foreigners for my struggles financially, i blame high bills and wasteful council spending of my taxes and costly perhaps unethical wars.

Only bigots and xenophobes blame immigrants, if they want to come here to work and we have the jobs for them to do so then its fine.

As for our identity being eroded i don't see it
We have added new cultures to our own and i like that as am sure many people do, i really don't understand the need that some people feel that we must preserve culture, it surely defeats progression?
 

Rugbypup

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cival war? no.

I meant in the worse case scenario.

civil unrest? almost certainly. i like civil unrest, when for the right reasons. sadly like g20 it will be taken over by anarchists and racists but seeing as the normal measures such as voting dont work, imo, it seems the best.

im not talking samshing things. but should it come to it. than yes.

i actually get excited to see people so into politics. in the uk its rare, which is a shame.

Civil unrest is a bad thing, for everyone one person that thinks a few ruffled feathers is OK there's one who thinks a few smashed shops and consequently livelihood is OK, then you get those who think a few dead foreigners is OK... it's a massive slippery dangerous slop to be thinking civil unrest is OK. Just because it's in England, doesn't mean it can't, hasn't or will not happen.

I disagree that it may be so bad.

I in 30 years of living cannot remember st, georges day so whatever it was that happened on that day cannot have been based on anything great.

Without seeming crass, with the whole of England's 2000 year history in mind, what is cerebrated that you would say is distinctly English? Not just one offs, but annually, that reflect the English identity?

As far as i know of the four nations we only celebrate the irish st patricks day and that is principly because it involves plenty of alcohol.

I don't blame foreigners for my struggles financially, i blame high bills and wasteful council spending of my taxes and costly perhaps unethical wars.

Only bigots and xenophobes blame immigrants, if they want to come here to work and we have the jobs for them to do so then its fine.

In New Zealand there is a government agency where if there is no New Zealanders 'able' to do the job advertised, only then can you employ a foreigner, I think England would benefit greatly from such a system.

As for our identity being eroded i don't see it.

We have added new cultures to our own and i like that as am sure many people do, i really don't understand the need that some people feel that we must preserve culture, it surely defeats progression?

Preserving a culture and cultural identity are similar but different things. When the amalgamation of other principle cultures becomes your culture, though the cultures you integrate with retain their own identity without reciprocation, then what is your identity? Does it mean to be English, you pick and choose from other cultures what you might while yours is rejected?

This seems another dangerous slippery slop to me. Do you know some schools in England have English as a second language only? Did you know the mayor of Slough at one point couldn't speak English at all? Did you know the introduction of sharea law to some parts of England was discussed? That some councillors feared Christmas in a Christian nation would cause such offence to it's ethic residence they wanted to rename it Wintersmass as not to be seen as offending other cultures?

What are the English progressing towards? Whatever it is, they are doing it quietly and without objection, in my opinion.

My fear is that while a multitude of cultures may reside in England, which does ultimately enrich a nations development, although not exactly harmoniously at times, the English will only be identified, in England, as your average Jeremy Kyle guest.

I find that distressing.

http://www.letsgetfreestuff.com/chav/chavs.jpg
 
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eurotop40

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In New Zealand there is a government agency where if there is no New Zealanders 'able' to do the job advertised, only then can you employ a foreigner, I think England would benefit greatly from such a system.
Yes, but this would be against the EU treaties. As a matter of fact, free capital, work and goods circulation is the basis of the EU treaties. And * LISTEN LISTEN " even Switzerland participates (so please no UK guy come up with "We should do like Switzerland etc..."). AND, exactly this has given Switzerland, since joining this agreement, a good economic growth!
 

mitchymo

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Without seeming crass, with the whole of England's 2000 year history in mind, what is cerebrated that you would say is distinctly English? Not just one offs, but annually, that reflect the English identity?

I don't believe that we have any national celebrations that reflect our identity. We only celebrate such things as christmas and easter and halloween which are religiously related to our christianity. We do however celebrate on smaller scales two distinctly british things, one is May Day and involves a simple day off work for the majority whilst rural communities tend to hold fetes which incorporate maypole dancing which i had fun in learning at primary school. The second is Bonfire Night or Guy Fawkes however you want to call it and is a british thing. The meaning for most celebrations have been disassociated in replace of simple entertainment and in Valentines Day's case commerce.

In New Zealand there is a government agency where if there is no New Zealanders 'able' to do the job advertised, only then can you employ a foreigner, I think England would benefit greatly from such a system.

We already have positive discrimination which i class this example as and we may well go there in the future but i don't like the idea of positive discrimination although a nation should be operating to sustainability before adding more to the mix i guess

Preserving a culture and cultural identity are similar but different things. When the amalgamation of other principle cultures becomes your culture, though the cultures you integrate with retain their own identity without reciprocation, then what is your identity? Does it mean to be English, you pick and choose from other cultures what you might while yours is rejected?

This seems another dangerous slippery slop to me. Do you know some schools in England have English as a second language only? Did you know the mayor of Slough at one point couldn't speak English at all? Did you know the introduction of sharea law to some parts of England was discussed? That some councillors feared Christmas in a Christian nation would cause such offence to it's ethic residence they wanted to rename it Wintersmass as not to be seen as offending other cultures?

In the history of the UK we have been invaded by just about everybody since the days when we as a people were seperated as different tribes, it was really only after the roman invasions that natives decided to come together to tackle cultures which have left their mark and influenced our progression, the english language is a hefty mix of european words/variants as well as latin, the romans built our first roads, the vikings built some of our first villages and roman and viking names form the basis of our adapted cities/town names. The english have compared to some european cultures not existed as a unified people. The Greeks, Italians and Scandinavians have a longer history and been able to defend them pretty well.
I don't see anything that if it is english culture that is good should be kept to ourselves or anything and we have already exported a few sports such as rugger and cricket. There are hundreds of italian restaurants in the uk but only 1 in Italy did you know that, i think this is because of preservation or maybe contentment not to move abroad.


What culture do you have in New Zealand that make you stand out from the Australians?

What are the English progressing towards? Whatever it is, they are doing it quietly and without objection, in my opinion.

My fear is that while a multitude of cultures may reside in England, which does ultimately enrich a nations development, although not exactly harmoniously at times, the English will only be identified, in England, as your average Jeremy Kyle guest.

Jeremy kyle is like marmite and the majority i know don't like him or his show which takes the underclass as its substanance. The average audience member i could only assume is made up of the lowest classes that have nothing better to do or love watching misery.
I find that distressing.


http://www.letsgetfreestuff.com/chav/chavs.jpg

Chavs are a fringe culture and no bigger than skaters and greebs. The majority of youth fall into the 'townie' category who are at the mainstream. I don't see the attitudes of chavs which are looked down upon by most townies, skaters and greebs ever being able to influence society.

So what is the new zealander identity?
 
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mitchymo

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Yes, but this would be against the EU treaties. As a matter of fact, free capital, work and goods circulation is the basis of the EU treaties. And * LISTEN LISTEN " even Switzerland participates (so please no UK guy come up with "We should do like Switzerland etc..."). AND, exactly this has given Switzerland, since joining this agreement, a good economic growth!

Lol that is good to hear.

Why does'nt Switzerland join the Union? I don't know why Norway is'nt in it either.
 

Reallyonlyme

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The Poles that came over during WWII didn't have a choice about going back. Poles returning were treated as traitors who deserted their country by the soviet occupiers. Many were imprisoned. For the Poles WWII didn't really end until the 1980s.

All the poles I know over here in UK work, and work hard. Many have come here purely for the better wages, to work their arses off for a few years, then head back to Poland to buy a plot of land and build a house with no mortgage hanging over them. I don't blame them one bit!
Others might have come with that intention, but have now settled here.

My ex-girlfriend is Polish, and the amount she worked, and the overtime she had to do basically killed our relationship. So their hard work ethic is not always a good thing!

Back in Poland I have always found the Poles a very welcoming and generous people. Very friendly in social circles. Some of the larger cities have become a bit wary of the Brit stag party crowd who drink too much cheap vodka and cause trouble, but assuming you're not a gang of only men you shouldn't have any problem getting into clubs and bars.

They also seem to get a great kick out of my attempts to speak Polish.
 

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Say what you like about the Americans, God's know we do, but they do have one great sense of national identity. All peoples in America have to swear allegiance to the country, there are some societies that are second and third generation born in England that do not consider them selves to be English because of it, favouring either religion as their nationality or the nationality of the forefathers. This is plain wrong to me.

Kinda strange as Americans are all immigrants!

I think the problem with have in the UK is they are constantly trying to tell us we're British, but we'd much rather be English, Welsh, Irish (northern) or Scottish!
Then of course we pander to the immigrants here. Benefit forms in 101 languages, come on now, you want to take our social security money, learn to read/write the f***ing native language! Grrrrr!
 

mitchymo

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Kinda strange as Americans are all immigrants!

I think the problem with have in the UK is they are constantly trying to tell us we're British, but we'd much rather be English, Welsh, Irish (northern) or Scottish!
Then of course we pander to the immigrants here. Benefit forms in 101 languages, come on now, you want to take our social security money, learn to read/write the f***ing native language! Grrrrr!

Two good points you make.
 

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I disagree that it may be so bad.

I in 30 years of living cannot remember st, georges day so whatever it was that happened on that day cannot have been based on anything great. As far as i know of the four nations we only celebrate the irish st patricks day and that is principly because it involves plenty of alcohol.

I don't blame foreigners for my struggles financially, i blame high bills and wasteful council spending of my taxes and costly perhaps unethical wars.

Only bigots and xenophobes blame immigrants, if they want to come here to work and we have the jobs for them to do so then its fine.

As for our identity being eroded i don't see it
We have added new cultures to our own and i like that as am sure many people do, i really don't understand the need that some people feel that we must preserve culture, it surely defeats progression?

Very well said! :biggrin1:
C.B.:saevil: