"Entrapment"

[B_Lightkeeper]

How do you feel about police/vice deliberately pretending to be gay to arrest someone in a bathroom or bar?
When I first moved to Birmingham (AL) from an adjoining state, it was no secret that members of the vice squad visited the bars there in hopes of being "hit" upon then arrested. I even knew one bartender who was arrested because he alerted a customer that the guy sitting next to him was a cop. I had friends that were arrested for either proposition or just rubbing a vice's leg or crotch under the table.

For years I was under the impression that if you asked someone suspicious if they were "vice" or a policeman, they had to admit they were, otherwise a charge wouldn't hold up in court. I don't guess that was/is true.

Watching "Cops" on Fox, many episodes feature prostitution stings - fortunately mostly females or "drag queens."

 

[SyddyKitty]

Wait, are you saying simply hitting on/flirting with a guy to figure out if he's straight or gay can get you arrested down there?

 

[gjorg]

Wait, are you saying simply hitting on/flirting with a guy to figure out if he's straight or gay can get you arrested down there?

BACK IN THE DAY----yeah,and so much more

 

[HazelGod]

For years I was under the impression that if you asked someone suspicious if they were "vice" or a policeman, they had to admit they were, otherwise a charge wouldn't hold up in court. I don't guess that was/is true.

Of course it isn't true, but it is one of the more pervasive urban legends floating around. Police are free to tell you the biggest bald-face lies they can think of in the course of performing their duties.

The questionable incident in your post, however, is the arrest of a person for informing a patron about the officer's identity. Though police are allowed to lie, the general citizenry is under no obligation to participate in their subterfuge. Seeing as how the bartender was an employee of a privately owned establishment, the police didn't have any right to arrest him.

 

[jakeatolla]

Why don't you ask George Michael?

 

[Cycleman]

Dirty rotten pigs!


COPS SUCK!!

 

[fortiesfun]

It should not be a crime to just be "gay," nor to seek out other people for sex, but soliciting for money is another thing.

 

[huw ginnit]

Entrapment, if what you say is the truth, is a disgusting way for the Police to fill their working day when the majority of the citizens they are employed to serve are assuming they are out on the streets catching crimnals who endanger life, use violence and are a menace to the wider community than some guy wanting to find company in a bar, for the evening....

It makes me sick. If sections of the community have no recourse to safely go to the police without fear of they themselves being criminalised, there is something inherently wrong with that society as a whole.

 

[Osiris]

I've always had a hard time with some of the tactics used by undercovers. I mean let's say a guy, never did anything criminal in his life, no drugs, no crime, nothing. Let's say this guy has a REALLY rotten day. He is just way down on his luck. He ventures into a club and is offered sex in a stall, drugs, etc. This person says yes in a moment of "what have I got to lose?"

I'm not saying he's not guilty because he did fall for it, but have you really made a difference in the crime rate?

Cut a lizard's tail off, it grows back. Cut a lizard's head off, it dies. Until they start hunting heads, it's just going to be lot's of "what have I got to lose?" cases getting arrested and the criminals laughing at all the little guys getting busted for their business.

Just my thought.

 

[TitanicJake]

I've gotten singnals from men in bathrooms at airports & rest stops all my life. I've had hands reach down when I'm sitting ont eh toilet. I figured that is just part of life.
When I heard about this guy's arest I was a bi t surprised that he was arrested for sticking his foot under the stall wall.
SOmetimes when I really have to go or when I'm in a hurry my dick is out of my pants as soon as I enter the room. I hope I never get into trouble for that.
Jake

 

[Freddie53]

I am a retired teacher. I know of teachers who tried everything in the book including having students write down the names of other students talking etc. But the only real way to keep order in the classroom is to be there.

I use this anology to say that if a certain gay bar "seems to be getting out of control." Then send in a uniformed policeman to seat way over in the corner to observe. If it is illegal to have the gay bar, then legally shut it down. (This is hypothetical I would hope) It is like going to a football game undercover and arresting coaches who are coaching the teams because it is illegal to play football. Meanwhile the football game goes on unindered.

If it is an adult only, volenteer only, non advertised establishment, it shouldn't be illegal.

And the situation given by the OP, is a gay bar. So why be undercover and arrest just certain people there?

This is unequal adminsitration of the law which is illegal. (Assuming that the law itself is legal to begin with.)

P.S. Are we sending undercover women cops to try to trap straight guys? I didin't thnk so.

 

[Osiris]

I am a retired teacher. I know of teachers who tried everything in the book including having students write down the names of other students talking etc. But the only real way to keep order in the classroom is to be there.

I use this anology to say that if a certain gay bar "seems to be getting out of control." Then send in a uniformed policeman to seat way over in the corner to observe. If it is illegal to have the gay bar, then legally shut it down. (This is hypothetical I would hope) It is like going to a football game undercover and arresting coaches who are coaching the teams because it is illegal to play football. Meanwhile the football game goes on unindered.

If it is an adult only, volenteer only, non advertised establishment, it shouldn't be illegal.

And the situation given by the OP, is a gay bar. So why be undercover and arrest just certain people there?

This is unequal adminsitration of the law which is illegal. (Assuming that the law itself is legal to begin with.)

P.S. Are we sending undercover women cops to try to trap straight guys? I didin't thnk so.

They are and have been for years. Women posing as prostitutes, call girl, etc. They are out there and certain cities have incepted what is called "John TV". In Kansas City, Missouri, they had a name and shame channel called "John TV". The sole purpose of this channel was to humiliate men busted in a prostitution sting.

I think the channel is now no more because it did no good.

 

[Eva]

From what I understand, "entrapment" is when the cops essentially entice someone to do something he they normally wouldn't do. That's why the Perverted Justice people don't get popped for it. They give the predators the card--show up, or don't show up. The pedophiles make the choice to show up. Not entrapment.

Now, I've never really been approached by a gross cop seeking more than just my signature on a ticket that I probably really deserved anyway.

So here's a salt lick to go along with my response.

 

[Male Bonding etc]

I've got very mixed feelings about the senator from Idaho's situation:
1. It shouldn't be considered wrong for anyone anywhere to be "gay," "bi" or anything other than completely "straight."
2. Just looking at this site I've discovered there's a whole world of shit going on in airport bathrooms I never knew about (and now, thanks to the news coverage, I know what the "signals" are). No doubt it is annoying to come across men having sex in the men's room, but really, how often does that happen?! Surely the police have better things to do than bust horny men!
3. My gut reaction is that the senator was looking for sex with a guy, but there's really not that much evidence. Still, part of me rejoices every time one of these "family values" types gets embarrassed in a situation like this.

 

[HazelGod]

2. Just looking at this site I've discovered there's a whole world of shit going on in airport bathrooms I never knew about (and now, thanks to the news coverage, I know what the "signals" are). No doubt it is annoying to come across men having sex in the men's room, but really, how often does that happen?! Surely the police have better things to do than bust horny men!

Dan Savage was being interviewed on CNN a couple days ago on this story, and he finally articulated what should be obvious to anyone who bothers to think outside the prevailing social stereotypes: the vast majority of people having this kind of clandestine gay sex are closeted, straight-identified men. Deviants who get off on anonymous random hookups aside, gay men who are openly out and comfortable with their sexuality have no need to skulk around in this manner; and most people, regardless of their orientation, have little desire to resort to nasty-ass places like public restrooms for sexual encounters.

 

[college22punk9]

Here's a thought....... how about know the laws and don't break them... that way if an overzealous cop arrests you, and you hire a 1/2-way competent lawyer, you won't get convicted.

Secondly...... I like the thought of people policing the bathrooms... becuase that way next time i'm in one, some dirty perv will think twice before trying to get me to have sex with him. If you "loose" people who want to have sex with strangers really need it............. arrange it on the internet...... not taking your chances in public venues and bathrooms where it is ILLEGAL.

Kill this post already.

End.

 

[Male Bonding etc]

Consider this, though, College. Do YOU really know every law on the books in YOUR community? Do you make it a habit of knowing all the laws of every other community you visit (assuming you do leave your community once in a while)?

I've had men come on to me in the men's room before, too. I've never felt it was an offense that required punishment even though restroom sex is not my thing. I just smile or ignore and go on about my business.

 

[viking1]

Something like this happened a few years back in my area. They arrested about 6 guys for trolling for sex in the men's room of the courthouse! I am not making this up. They charged them with solicitation for sex. Why on Earth would somebody try that in a building full of law enforcement officials?

 

[simcha]

Something like this happened a few years back in my area. They arrested about 6 guys for trolling for sex in the men's room of the courthouse! I am not making this up. They charged them with solicitation for sex. Why on Earth would somebody try that in a building full of law enforcement officials?

Probably because some of the guys trolling for sex there were law enforcement officials. I'm jusss sayin'..

 

[Freddie53]

In no way am I taking up for the Senator, but did any sexual activity happen other than the foot under the stall and the hand under the stall? That in itself is not lewd conduct. It would seem that the police should let it go a bit further. No blow jobs, but at least get to the point where pants are down and dick is through the hole and the Senator has gotten on his knees and getting ready to do the deed. I would think that just before there is actual contact is when the police should then arrest the Senator.

We all know what those signs mean now. But the signs in themselves aren't lewd.

What about undercover cops who give those signals in a stall to try to allure someone? I believe strongly that should be illegal. Some men would be emotionally upset by having someone come on to them in the restroom. A man with heath problems particularly heart or emotional problems could be very affected by such a proposition in the public restroom.

And what if the undercover police and mess up and approach a 17 year old?

It is like cancer. I can kill any cancer in anyone. One hundred percent guaranteed. All it takes is a shot gun bullet to the head. Within hours every cancer cell will be dead.

But isn't the cure worse than the disease? Certainly.

Is the chance that undercover police cause undo stress on an innocent person. A man approached just as he is about to shit and past the point of return gets approached and rushes out of the restroom only to shit all over himself?

I just don't like undercover cops in restrooms for this purpose. Instead let the uniform police make regular rounds in all public restrooms. Men cops for the men's rooms and lady cops for the women's rooms.

There would be very little sexual conduct going on if a cop were going in for a second every five to ten minutes on a irregular schedule so it can't be predicted when his next visit will be.

And a plus would be our minors would have more protection in the restrooms. Wouldn't moms with sons over five and under 12 appreciate a valid uniform policeman who was making rounds and mom had her son wait until it was time for the police rounds and had her son go in when she knew he was safe.

Same for dads with girls age 5 to 12.

I started at age 5 because up to that age, it is customary to either parent to take either son or daughter in with them to the restroom.

Dammit. The purpose of the police is to make the restrooms safe, not catch gay guys looking for sex. The airport is not concerned with the sexual desires of men in the world. The airports concern is only to provide clean, safe restrooms for the people at the airport.