Equality Creates Inequality... Example Inside.

[marriedasian]

so this came up during one of my youtube binge sessions and i couldn't help but start searching for more discussions on this particular issue.

on one side, we want equality, but then on the other side, when it creates side effects and create inequality, what do we do? as i stated in the title, in the pursuit of equality, we create inequality.

thoughts and discussion on this? i'm curious to here viewpoints. let's avoid the discussion of equality of opportunity and equality of outcome in this thread. let's just discuss this particular scenario only please.

 

[keenobserver]

so this came up during one of my youtube binge sessions and i couldn't help but start searching for more discussions on this particular issue.

on one side, we want equality, but then on the other side, when it creates side effects and create inequality, what do we do? as i stated in the title, in the pursuit of equality, we create inequality.

thoughts and discussion on this? i'm curious to here viewpoints. let's avoid the discussion of equality of opportunity and equality of outcome in this thread. let's just discuss this particular scenario only please.

You lost me with the source material - the Daily Signal is a Heritage Foundation mouthpiece. The HF has opposed ALL efforts at equality in the world - same sex marriage, anti gay discrimination. and even equality between men and women.

The issue is complicated by the fact that even some biological from birth girls have been disqualified from competition for elevated hormones that occur in highly conditioned athletes. There is no magic solution that will, in the age of the participation trophy resolve the potential unfairness in any athletic competition. Someone, somewhere will always feel some unfairness.

Don't try to put limits on a thread to set the table for the outcome you are seeking. A discussion of opportunity and equality is critical.

 

[marriedasian]

You lost me with the source material - the Daily Signal is a Heritage Foundation mouthpiece. The HF has opposed ALL efforts at equality in the world - same sex marriage, anti gay discrimination. and even equality between men and women.

the source material was only the first that caught my attention. my discussion here is to get thoughts on the cause and effect of what was done. transgendered girls were allowed to compete with biological girls and are winning. people are arguing it's unfair due to the transgendered girls being born male therefore are physically stronger. this results in an obvious advantage.

The issue is complicated by the fact that even some biological from birth girls have been disqualified from competition for elevated hormones that occur in highly conditioned athletes. There is no magic solution that will, in the age of the participation trophy resolve the potential unfairness in any athletic competition. Someone, somewhere will always feel some unfairness.

i was not aware of such with the biological girls hence my education is now increased. i agree that there will always be a sense of unfairness but what about when it's blatantly obvious?

Don't try to put limits on a thread to set the table for the outcome you are seeking. A discussion of opportunity and equality is critical.

i only asked to have equality of opportunity and outcome out because i wanted to focus on the physicality of transgendered girls vs biological girls. perhaps this case is an isolated one however i'm finding more and more scenarios online so i brought it up.

 

[keenobserver]

the source material was only the first that caught my attention. my discussion here is to get thoughts on the cause and effect of what was done. transgendered girls were allowed to compete with biological girls and are winning. people are arguing it's unfair due to the transgendered girls being born male therefore are physically stronger. this results in an obvious advantage.



i was not aware of such with the biological girls hence my education is now increased. i agree that there will always be a sense of unfairness but what about when it's blatantly obvious?



i only asked to have equality of opportunity and outcome out because i wanted to focus on the physicality of transgendered girls vs biological girls. perhaps this case is an isolated one however i'm finding more and more scenarios online so i brought it up.

Equality and outcome are the issues given the scenarios being dealt with on the issue. I fully understand why a female athlete would see a MTF trans athlete as having an unfair advantage, but it is not always or even mostly going to be true. An MTF takes female hormones and loses the ability to make testosterone once he is surgically completed his transition. Some of these people were small to begin with. Some were full sized for their age. The available science does not establish a fair way to sort this out. I assume the same rules apply at multiple levels of a sport, so all we're left with is any full bodied woman can compete as a woman regardless of how she got to that point.

Consider the backlash against Kenyan marathoners. Marathon is a massive sport in Kenya and their runners often dominate the sport on the international scene. A number of white athletes claim this is unfair because Kenyans as a people often are long and lean and well fit to be marathon runners in a culture that values them. Should we disqualify them for that 'unfair' advantage? Baseball purist like to cling to records and stats as a way of weighing players of different generations. However until Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier the only records that counted were white men's records and they never played against black players. The inequity took years to begin to change.

With FTM / MTF trans athletes we are looking at a different issue and a societal change. There is no easy way to immediately make everyone happy about the change but over time it will work itself out.

My problem with the source material is that is comes from a group that demonized equality on all levels, sexual orientation, racial and gender consistently. For me it becomes suspect because it sets the table for a biased discussion intended to foster more division and discrimination. I do not mean to say that you are doing it. I believe you are looking for an honest and fair discussion, but it can't really happen when the source information has a tilt to it. I tend to get touchy on subjects like this because I see the current administration promoting a 'straight white male agenda' that is going to take generations to unwind.

By no means did I intend to take that out on you - just the source video.

 

[IntactMale]

One thing in the video struck me as pretty hypocritical. She says that with the trans competitors there is no chance for her to win, and that its unfair and drives other females away from the sport. Then she describes the long jump as her "safe haven" implying that she knows she will excel at that event and is almost certain to win. If that is true, then isn't her natural ability at the long jump doing to other competitors what she claims the inclusion of the trans competitors is doing to other female competitors.

I don't really have much of a horse in this race, and I don't want to be involved in the discussion when this thread inevitably turns ugly, but I get bothered when I see something like this that talks about how much of a problem something is without offering an idea of a solution. When the video ended I had no idea what they wanted to be done, aside from an implication.

 

[keenobserver]

One thing in the video struck me as pretty hypocritical. She says that with the trans competitors there is no chance for her to win, and that its unfair and drives other females away from the sport. Then she describes the long jump as her "safe haven" implying that she knows she will excel at that event and is almost certain to win. If that is true, then isn't her natural ability at the long jump doing to other competitors what she claims the inclusion of the trans competitors is doing to other female competitors.

I don't really have much of a horse in this race, and I don't want to be involved in the discussion when this thread inevitably turns ugly, but I get bothered when I see something like this that talks about how much of a problem something is without offering an idea of a solution. When the video ended I had no idea what they wanted to be done, aside from an implication.

Exactly - my sentiments as well.

 

[Industrialsize]

the source material was only the first that caught my attention. my discussion here is to get thoughts on the cause and effect of what was done. transgendered girls were allowed to compete with biological girls and are winning. people are arguing it's unfair due to the transgendered girls being born male therefore are physically stronger. this results in an obvious advantage.



i was not aware of such with the biological girls hence my education is now increased. i agree that there will always be a sense of unfairness but what about when it's blatantly obvious?



i only asked to have equality of opportunity and outcome out because i wanted to focus on the physicality of transgendered girls vs biological girls. perhaps this case is an isolated one however i'm finding more and more scenarios online so i brought it up.

Please learn the proper language. No one is transgerED.

 

[Perados]

First of all I would like to say that the music is made to give you are really bad feeling... and why is the girl's voice so whiny?

Anyway... about the topic.

In case of transgender we are at the beginning of a process and it's normal that a new "system" isn't perfect from day one.

There are issues we can't ignore and have to find better solutions. One is sports, another might be the bathroom issue. It's understandable that some woman might feel uncomfortable with a transgender woman that hadn't have any medical treatment till now.

But it doesn't mean that the try to create more equality is bad. We will make mistakes on the way to create a society where everyone can live the life he/she wants, but the path is still the right one.

I can't name solutions for certain problems, because I know too less about the matter. I guess most of us have this "problem". We will have to rely on experts, that they will find a solution most can live with. There might be even problems we can't solve, but then we have to weight the pros and cons and decide what to do.

All of this, notice a problem, think and discuss about solutions, decide for one, or weight the benefits with the costs, all of this takes time. During this time we will have "victims" of the new system on both sides. Those who have to deal with the negative effects, because the law went too far on some issues and those who deal with negative effects, because the law didn't went far enough... that's sad, but nearly inevitable.

 

[Perados]

One thing in the video struck me as pretty hypocritical. She says that with the trans competitors there is no chance for her to win, and that its unfair and drives other females away from the sport. Then she describes the long jump as her "safe haven" implying that she knows she will excel at that event and is almost certain to win. If that is true, then isn't her natural ability at the long jump doing to other competitors what she claims the inclusion of the trans competitors is doing to other female competitors.

I thought about the way both, mother and daughter, talked about how much the girl loves this sports... and I thought that no one can take a way this love, so why is she complaining?
Yes, it might become less likely to win and I understand that you, as an athlete, want to win... but she talked about the love to the sport, bot the love to win.

I don't really have much of a horse in this race, and I don't want to be involved in the discussion when this thread inevitably turns ugly, but I get bothered when I see something like this that talks about how much of a problem something is without offering an idea of a solution. When the video ended I had no idea what they wanted to be done, aside from an implication.

I guess the way this video was done it was very clear what the message of this video is... it should give you a very baaaad feeling about transgender. No matter what they do, they will never become the "opposite gender"

 

[Perados]

the source material was only the first that caught my attention. my discussion here is to get thoughts on the cause and effect of what was done. transgendered girls were allowed to compete with biological girls and are winning. people are arguing it's unfair due to the transgendered girls being born male therefore are physically stronger. this results in an obvious advantage.

In this case you should ask HOW MANY win...
If I remember my pe at school, I know that not every boy was faster than every girl, or could jump, or throw further.
You and the video make it look like as if EVERY transgender would have to win.

And what's with the other way around? Not every transgender male will win a competition. They are "victims" as well and they don't complain.

Like I wrote before, it's a process and we will find solutions.

i was not aware of such with the biological girls hence my education is now increased.

and that's the problem with the video. It doesn't offer informations, just emotions.

i agree that there will always be a sense of unfairness but what about when it's blatantly obvious?

Is it? I really can't tell. I have no clue how many transgender win and how many lose... and what should be the average?



-----


As I read the other posts I noticed I totally forgot about the hormones... that will raise the question about "how many win" again

 

[TexanStar]

so this came up during one of my youtube binge sessions and i couldn't help but start searching for more discussions on this particular issue.

on one side, we want equality, but then on the other side, when it creates side effects and create inequality, what do we do? as i stated in the title, in the pursuit of equality, we create inequality.

thoughts and discussion on this? i'm curious to here viewpoints. let's avoid the discussion of equality of opportunity and equality of outcome in this thread. let's just discuss this particular scenario only please.

Color me surprised.

Yet another post from a man expressing concern about trans women participating in women's athletics.

Certainly this is not a pattern with post after post after post from concerned men who don't otherwise participate in politics discussion coming out of the woodwork to raise this topic for discussion.

Here's my contribution to this particular scenario... you're a man, as am I. Neither one of us is going to be participating in women's athletics. If this is a topic that women feel needs to be hotly debated, there are plenty of women who do frequent this forum and can raise it.

 

[IntactMale]

I guess the way this video was done it was very clear what the message of this video is... it should give you a very baaaad feeling about transgender. No matter what they do, they will never become the "opposite gender"

Yes, that is the implication I was referring to. I don't think implication is the same as presenting an actual solution to a problem though, whether or not I agree with the implication or find it reprehensible. What I really don't respect is making a video like this, including the implication, and not at least having the courage to say what they are implying.

The implication in this video is anti-trans, but they won't say it. There are users on this forum, and a president, who are clearly racist and make arguments defending racism, but won't admit the reality of what they are and what they are doing. If someone has these feelings, anti trans or racist feelings for example, they should at least have the courage to admit to the truth so that we can have an honest discussion. And if it means people hate them for their views, I say good, maybe it will teach them something about their own hate.

 

[Thikn2velvet1]

Equality is zero sum game. Trying to legislate “ equality” means taking from one and giving to another. It can never be fair.

 

[Bull9in]

I'm not looking to poke the troll nest, but I do have to ask...why in this day and age are we still so fixated on the concept of "winning?" I will freely admit I rarely watch sports, and truth be told, it's because I find little interesting about them. If I do, I prefer something like gymnastics, or ice skating...something with artistic content - just so I'm clear about my own preferences. That said, sports in general are a relic of a time when it was necessary for human survival to be the fastest, the strongest; when you needed to keep your troops in the mindset to fight at a moment's notice. We are not in that time anymore.

So why the overarching focus on "winning?" If you love the sport, as @Perados mentioned above, no one can take that from you. If are good at a sport, no one can take that from you. Do you only do it to win? Will you stop if you do not feel you are "the best" or do not get the accolades you think you should have? If not, than what difference does it make who you play against?

As we are finally realizing that human life may not be as binary (simplistic) as we previously believed, I think that many of our convenient divisions, sports and gender separation being but one, will become artifacts. We have a strange, and uncomfortable relationship within and without of ourselves - we are social, but want to be independent; we are inclusive but want to be exclusive; we want to be welcoming, but are inherently xenophobic (according to sociologists - I question this strongly); we want to fit in, but want to stand out. You get the idea. We are a mass of contradictions - and all of them seem to be binary. Is it any wonder that there is backlash against the very idea that we are not binary at all?

And so my dodge of the entire question. Don't make sports a competitive contest. Do it for the love of it. Do it to keep in shape. Do it for the freedom of physical expression. Marvel at the beautiful bodies and what they can do when they are trained, or naturally if that is the reason (Michael Phelps has a natural genetic aberration that makes him uniquely gifted as a swimmer - should he be banned from the sport because of that? I don't know of one other swimmer would think to suggest such a thing.) But stop this ultimately fruitless, transient pursuit of being the "winner." It carries over into the rest our lives - as evidenced by the atrocious behavior of our president, a man who is so egocentric, egotistical, so adverse to showing anything he feels resembles "weakness"; so consumed with "winning," he uses it to justify anything. It's gotta stop, doesn't it?

And if not, then let's have lots of different leagues. Those that compete without the aid of chemical enhancement. Then you have the Juice League - athletes that will voluntarily turn themselves into the fantastical gladiators with the aid of every chemical known to science. Then transgender league, and on and on. Does that seem like a better scenario? I doubt it.

We've got to, somehow, realize that 'transgender, 'bisexual,' 'black,' 'white,' 'Muslim,' 'gay,' 'straight,' 'Christian' and all the rest - all these labels ultimately do is divide. We can't survive that way. We are people. We are human.

 

[Thikn2velvet1]

I'm not looking to poke the troll nest, but I do have to ask...why in this day and age are we still so fixated on the concept of "winning?" I will freely admit I rarely watch sports, and truth be told, it's because I find little interesting about them. If I do, I prefer something like gymnastics, or ice skating...something with artistic content - just so I'm clear about my own preferences. That said, sports in general are a relic of a time when it was necessary for human survival to be the fastest, the strongest; when you needed to keep your troops in the mindset to fight at a moment's notice. We are not in that time anymore.

So why the overarching focus on "winning?" If you love the sport, as @Perados mentioned above, no one can take that from you. If are good at a sport, no one can take that from you. Do you only do it to win? Will you stop if you do not feel you are "the best" or do not get the accolades you think you should have? If not, than what difference does it make who you play against?

As we are finally realizing that human life may not be as binary (simplistic) as we previously believed, I think that many of our convenient divisions, sports and gender separation being but one, will become artifacts. We have a strange, and uncomfortable relationship within and without of ourselves - we are social, but want to be independent; we are inclusive but want to be exclusive; we want to be welcoming, but are inherently xenophobic (according to sociologists - I question this strongly); we want to fit in, but want to stand out. You get the idea. We are a mass of contradictions - and all of them seem to be binary. Is it any wonder that there is backlash against the very idea that we are not binary at all?

And so my dodge of the entire question. Don't make sports a competitive contest. Do it for the love of it. Do it to keep in shape. Do it for the freedom of physical expression. Marvel at the beautiful bodies and what they can do when they are trained, or naturally if that is the reason (Michael Phelps has a natural genetic aberration that makes him uniquely gifted as a swimmer - should he be banned from the sport because of that? I don't know of one other swimmer would think to suggest such a thing.) But stop this ultimately fruitless, transient pursuit of being the "winner." It carries over into the rest our lives - as evidenced by the atrocious behavior of our president, a man who is so egocentric, egotistical, so adverse to showing anything he feels resembles "weakness"; so consumed with "winning," he uses it to justify anything. It's gotta stop, doesn't it?

And if not, then let's have lots of different leagues. Those that compete without the aid of chemical enhancement. Then you have the Juice League - athletes that will voluntarily turn themselves into the fantastical gladiators with the aid of every chemical known to science. Then transgender league, and on and on. Does that seem like a better scenario? I doubt it.

We've got to, somehow, realize that 'transgender, 'bisexual,' 'black,' 'white,' 'Muslim,' 'gay,' 'straight,' 'Christian' and all the rest - all these labels ultimately do is divide. We can't survive that way. We are people. We are human.

An interesting opinion given that it is on a site that objectifies male genitalia, and in particular, genetically freakishly sized genitalia. You have some women and a very large number of gay men very actively seeking out and competing for genetically gifted men.

 

[Bull9in]

An interesting opinion given that it is on a site that objectifies male genitalia, and in particular, genetically freakishly sized genitalia. You have some women and a very large number of gay men very actively seeking out and competing for genetically gifted men.

Well, I don't think the majority of people here are really competing for anything. People being people, there will always be preferences. And as long as we are alive, we WANT. That is the essence of being alive. the minute you truly don't want anything - food, water - you die. I've seen it in terminally ill animals and people.

But you're kind of making my point for me - we are so inculcated into the paradigm of scarcity, that we always feel we are in competition for everything. We need to beat out everybody else so we can get what we want. There's not enough. It's what we're taught from the minute we can understand speech. And on and on we run on the never-ending hamster wheel. And we are controlled by the social structures that reinforce the idea over and over. It keeps us distracted, and it keeps us fearful. And by that, we can be controlled and lead.

From what I've seen of this site, most people stay behind their computers, and talk of fantasies; a creative endeavor to be sure - and harmless mainly. Some come for more or less robust discussion on any number of topics. Those that are out there actively seeking, as you say, "genetically gifted men," will certainly find them...look how many are on this site alone! When I was single, I was never at a loss for company...unless you are truly hideous in physicality, demeanor, or bodily hygiene, most people aren't. There really is not the competition that you might imagine.

At least, that's how I see it.

 

[Thikn2velvet1]

Well, I don't think the majority of people here are really competing for anything. People being people, there will always be preferences. And as long as we are alive, we WANT. That is the essence of being alive. the minute you truly don't want anything - food, water - you die. I've seen it in terminally ill animals and people.

But you're kind of making my point for me - we are so inculcated into the paradigm of scarcity, that we always feel we are in competition for everything. We need to beat out everybody else so we can get what we want. There's not enough. It's what we're taught from the minute we can understand speech. And on and on we run on the never-ending hamster wheel. And we are controlled by the social structures that reinforce the idea over and over. It keeps us distracted, and it keeps us fearful. And by that, we can be controlled and lead.

From what I've seen of this site, most people stay behind their computers, and talk of fantasies; a creative endeavor to be sure - and harmless mainly. Some come for more or less robust discussion on any number of topics. Those that are out there actively seeking, as you say, "genetically gifted men," will certainly find them...look how many are on this site alone! When I was single, I was never at a loss for company...unless you are truly hideous in physicality, demeanor, or bodily hygiene, most people aren't. There really is not the competition that you might imagine.

At least, that's how I see it.

I see it as people are innately acquisitive. It is in our genes. I don’t think we learn it at all. 2 year olds left alone will try to gather up all the toys, they usually have to be taught to share. As far as I know, there had never been a truly altruistic commune of people or tribes. The ancient 10 commandments speak to the need to set rules for community.

i doubt many competitors in sports are upset when they are simply outworked by another competitor. Sports isn’t about equality, it is about fair competition. No one questions fair competition. But forcing equality with law always means taking from one and giving to another, and it is always by force.

I like sports and I like fair competition. I don’t mind playing to win. I enter a lot of competitions in various things, and usually I lose, but it is a good way to measure my improvement in that skill. As long as competition is fair I got no
one to blame but myself.

And that is how I see it.