Europe - What's your view on it?

[Ralexx]

@ BradleeM

Some comments :

Turkey is not a part of Europe : it never was (not more than geographically), it is not and will never be. Besides, even from a geographic point of view, saying that Turkey is European it's like claiming that Russia is American because it owns the westernmost Aleutines (English sp ?) islands. Importing European civilisational results (a.k.a. "Western" institutions, goods, services, technique, etc.) does not make one European (Occidental) - in this case, Turkey is as much European as Japan is. Turkey's cultural background, its history, the mentality is has are obstacles in her bid for Europeanness.

2. European socialism ? Hardly existing ! Let's not inaccurately use such words. Rather "social-democracy" and "social-oriented economy" (the German "Sozialwirtschaft"). That means European countries are not willing to sacrifice the social tissue and cohesion for the sake of having Donald Trumps, golden boys, Bill Gates and good-old Rockefellers, dot.com. bubbles or for EuroStoxx50 to reach 12.000 points. Let me point out that, comparatively, the 14% most pauper Europeans are 60% richer than the same percentage of the most pauper Americans. The nowadays superb results in healthcare, education, in the public sector (from travels by state-owned companies to ecology !), unparalleled in Europe's own history and/or by other states, are as many reasons to keep the welfare-state.
Of course there was reached a point where this welfare state became a financial burden and an obstruction ! With or without union-trades' approval, it will be discharged, but not completely. More liberal economic conditions are certainly needed, more dynamism on the market is required (imperatively !), more money should be redirected (at least) to Europe's military field. Europe doesn't exactly frenetically chase "economical growth" (the last modern obsession and utopia). If it would try to cut some colossal expenses, it would do it mostly because this social-democracy overprotects, it makes the citizens less responsible, puts the civil society asleep ; it's the best way for social and civic indolence ! Europe reached a point where it discovered that too much comfort kills individuality, intelligence and self-development ; too much comfort is an inhibition. (But I risk entering something I love so much, political philosophy, so I stop.) If there should be some judgement upon Europe's social preoccupations and its welfare state, I think it should start with its reasons, not with its results (which are damn good in many aspects, anyway !).

 

[Ralexx]

@ Javierdude

It's most interesting that most posters seems to view France as the archetype image of Europe. It is the first mentioned, and mostly discussed.

French not willing to speak English ?

a)There are French and French. I met French speaking a gorgeous English, I met French unable to pronounce the "h" : I yave (I have), I yam eppy (I am happy). "New York" will always sound like a charming "Neuillorque". French complain English is a difficult language to pronounce. It's the same I heard from Dutch regarding French. But I also encountered Dutch and British speaking a superb French ! Conclusion : there are different linguistic affinities. (Do all Anglo-Saxons speak French or neo-Latin languages ? Of course not !) It's not about English or French, it's about speaking as many languages as possible !!! It's good for you !

b) 40% inflation ??? Madonna !!! Where did you read this ? Please take the newspaper and send it to me, I want to use it as a toilet paper. For Christ's sake, would one please think ? If the inflation was at such a stake, how the present 1,15-1,19 $ for 1 euro would be ever possible ? 40% inflation would devastate the EU-living standard as never before ! That would mean a 3.33% price-increase every month since January 2002 - this never happened !! I know what you're talking about (the price increase), I was confronted with this occurrence in Germany, more than in any other country. And do you think this is EU's fault ? AT ALL ! It's just producers, taking advantage ! Even 25% in over-over-exaggerated ! Maybe 4.0% in some countries, compared to 2.5% in others. Nuances are necessary. There are countries and countries : Germany has the cheapest food (even though France is the greatest European food-producer), while France and Italy have the "cheapest" luxury products. You can buy cheaper cars in Luxembourg than in Finland (sometimes with 10.000 euros !). The market is still fragmented, but evolving towards a certain homogeneity. (Warning ! Do not expect homogeneity : such thing does not exist in real economy, neither on a Continental-wide market, nor within the limits of the same country !!!) EURO introduction is not a Monopoly-scale game, may I remind you ? We're talking about 12 countries and 290,000,000 persons (out of 375 ! while US have 276 millions), we're talking about their accounts, businesses, pensions, credit cards being managed, not to mention printing money and minting coins - 600-billion euros (= 690 bn. $) ! It's a macroeconomic process that needs, obviously !, time to be digested ! You cannot build Europe - a mega-state fitting a culture, a geography and a civilisation - in one night !

 

[Ralexx]

[@ Javier too; I had to break up my message - it was too long]

When I mentioned the "degree of miscomprehension" regarding the European Union, I meant many & a lot ! Of course EU is not the best institutional result of human logic (trust me on this, I'm acquainted with it !!), but it will be cleared ! In 2009, we should have the first European Constitution. 25 countries embracing the same continental-sized Constitution is unprecedented in world's history. Europe is "decayed", as the American right likes to declare ? Wrong ! Europe makes the most daring step into History ! It does it again   !

EU citizens "do not see the forest because of the trees", as a Roumanian proverb says. Lost in details, in EU quotas, limitations, recommendations, directives, treaties, councils, EU citizens cannot see the grandeur and the meaning of this United Europe, have no vision, failing to build an affective relation with Europe. For most EU citizens, "Europe" is more - ugh ! - a gargantuan bureaucracy than a culture and a civilisation.
Who and what is post-1945 "Europe" ? Europe brought the peace (I hope) one (can still know how to) enjoy/s, the welfare one delights in (perhaps without even being aware), the co-operation you mention, Javier, continental-wide university programs, openness (yes, even satellite TV and Love Parades !) and, finally, wisdom and a better life. Of course you cannot have all these benefits without troubles and sacrifices (oh, that's the very base of human condition : no pleasure without pain and struggle !). If one complains about inflation - a historical detail in the process of the European unification ! - what to say about a possible war ?!!? (fortunately, hardly conceivable now  ;D !)

Ah, a funny non-sense that tries to discredit the EU: the fear of the future disappearance of the nations ! "There will be no more French, Poles, Germans, Danes, Austrians..." ??? Waaaaake uuuuup ! How could a construction dissolve the things it is built upon ? How can you build a house by removing its bricks later, can you explain me ? How do you think some institutions can remove (from the future Europe) Nations that are built on centuries of traditions, ideas, experiences, deep affection, common language and a certain, specific, mental frame ? Oh-my, some sense, dear eurosceptics !

On the other hand, I'm most sure EU citizens rather take all this for granted ! Sometimes I wonder if they wouldn't need a war, to lose everything, otherwise they don't seem to realise what they have ! For them, wealth is "normal" ; NO, wealth is not normal, it's an acquisition, it's a conquest ! I am sure the majority of EU's citizens hardly study institutional Europe, its history, its bases and concepts. Are then, their critics, justified ? NO. EU is so much misunderstood that I was proven so many times EU citizens rather take it as an abrupt idea of 1950 and 1957, not as an organic development in Europe's history ! European unity was dreamt since the 8th century, 800 AD - thus, for 1200 years ! There are at least 30 projects of European unification, going from 1200 to 1924 and 1930 ! Even more : the European unification, besides being a natural process, it is (finally !) the coronation of the political maturity of 35 European peoples.

Well... these three postings are just a fragment of my convictions... "A Raal Lexx Guide to European Maintenance" But there are other opinions and I would be more than thrilled to read some !

 

[B_DoubleMeatWhopper]

I hope that no one took my post as a sign that I dislike Europe. I mentioned some negative points because those are the ones that often stick in your memory. I did find the Parisians rude, the food in Norway was unpleasant and overly salty ... but this is just my perception of the Parisians I met and the Norwegian food I tasted. I realise that it can be dangerous to use sweeping generalisations because they rarely apply to all things/persons in a given class. Oh, and Scandinavia in January was freaking cold!
However, this is not to say I didn't enjoy my visits to Europe. Au contraire: Dirk and I are going to Spain, southern France and Italy starting at the end of August. Dirk is busy boning up on his Italian (I just love helping Dirk bone up!). We plan to enjoy the charms that western Mediterranean Europe has to offer! ;D

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: Ok...so for real...i went nuts today...

I'd been writing a post, to answer your remarks Raal Lex, which without any doubt could has passed of as my graduation thesis. It was really long...which became the downfall...

'Your post is too long, please press 'back' to change'

After i did my parents probably heard somebody's head banging against the door...

Rien, niks, nada, niente, nothing...

So..ill post this again...but im gonna eb as succint as possble:

Turkey is a part of Europe, geographically, AND very soon also institutionally, cause theyre up for candidacy, and with them being in the Nato, Greece warming up, and being good allies with the US, they WILL enter.

French speaking: i was reffeing to popular opinion in Holland. Its one of those anecdotes where we say the French are too pretentious to speak English, even though they know it. It's not my own opinion, and i have a few French friend who speka English perfectly, and want to very much, but Politically, it is very true. The minute Chirac starts using English words, papers will head that hell froze over.

The EU: The investigation was by a prestigious magazine, and i found myself it to be true as well. Thing is it wasnt the inflation number (40%) cause they didnt weigh the percentage increase for goods like they do to calculate inflation. Holland had a 5% inflation rate last year, which is still a lot, compared to no pay increase. But i don't believe those numbers cause five percent is REALLY too little. Healt care e.g. rose from 15 guilders (7 Euro) to 21 Euro's a month. (260%!) Clothing rose anywhere between 40-100%, brandnames being responsible for a 100% increase. Of course the governments didnt do that, but theyw ere warned this would happen, and that they should have takn measures. They didnt believe that, and did nothing, now we have the results.

EU institutionally: I have experience with it as well from an internship and i must say its the slowest and bureaucratic institution ever. Of course Rome wasnt built overnight but this is ridiculous. Turkey is gonna enter soon, whch is seriously gonna mean the downfall of the EU, cause they are too far away culturally. I really liked the EU before the Euro introduction, and before these 10 other countries were entering, cause they really shouldnt, theyre too poor. Soon we'll have Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, the Balkan (with all its HUGE problems) and maybe even Morrocco entering!...its too much peas in a pot, peas of very different colors. The EU before the Eruo (in 2000) was like a piece of art, the artist shouldnt have touched it anymore. But like any artist that doesnt know when too call it quits, the picture was ruined.

You mentioned that for centuries now eve tried to unify Europe, and that its a conquest we finally did. But you forget those efforts were forced, and in between those efforts all we did was kill eachother (upto 1945). Thinking we can now, within not even a century, hold hands and say 'we agree...we are one'....is in my opinion even more dangerous than openly being on bad terms with one another.cuase we don't agree (on anything) and we are not one, and when we realise that, the shits gonna hit the fence.

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: O...i also wanted to say:

Longhornjok, that post was reálly cool!....it was indeed like a travelbrochure, but a very nice one to read.

Laterz

 

[Ralexx]

You don't give up, do you Neither do I. I'll post my reply later (I'm just going to the gym). But, hey, it will be the last one - after all, it's a Large Penis Support Group, not an Enlarged Europe Support Group !

Be ready ;D !

 

[Ralexx]

Here I am ! I have to say, the tone of your posting runs between mourning, unhappiness and elegy... - do I have to understand Europe is dead for you ?

1. There are many cleavages between the national governments and the EU structures. I am acquainted with them because of my internships at the EU Commission in Brussels (besides at NATO, Council of Europe, UN Geneva, etc...). But I still find it hard to accept the numbers and the %-es you display. That would mean that the Kingdom of the Netherlands is a place of post-Euro financial folly ; in Europe, no other country complains about such circumstances. Besides : a) it is not the government's duty to protests against price increases at private producers. What are the citizens doing ? Any associations for consumers' protection and rights ? Why don't they react ? b) If the governments would interfere, the producers would cry like hell for "intrusion". This is just an example of the societal derive that occurs when citizens are irresolute and neglect their social duties. c) the EU-states' governments have sometimes the disgusting cowardice of blaming EU for their own stupidities.

2. Javierdude, this is 2003. The Morocco's demand for EEC adhesion came in 1986 ! It was rejected in 1987. Reason : "no other motif than the geographical one (a country must be a part of geographical Europe) should be taken into consideration for excluding a country from EU membership". Morocco was never a part of any conceivable Europe. With 10% of its territory in Europe, Turkey is in no better position ! ( I don't have a clue in what Europe do you live..!)

3. Turkey - NATO membership does not influence EU membership ! Norway is a part of NATO, but it will not join EU ; Austria and Finland are EU members, but not NATO ones. Where is it stated that a country should belong to both organisations ? NOWHERE ! The fact that Greece smoothed its divergences with Turkey is a bilateral affair. (After all, their rivalry goes back to the 1100s, when Greece was the Byzantine Empire and the Turks were mere Asian hordes assaulting its eastern frontiers !) Paradoxically, you're more prepared to include Turkey than the Balkans (it's plural, Javier, for it's a region, not a country - look on the map !), even though Turkey's problems are overwhelmingly more difficult to solve than the Balkans'. US support for Turkey admittance is largely ignored in Europe due to the simple fact that it was us, the Europeans, who had to deal with the Turks in the last 600 years, not the Americans. (Besides, US never asked an express inclusion, but "recommended", "advised" it. The difference in diplomatic terms is colossal !) Turkey should be perfectly content with a special regime granted to her. If Europe wants to commit suicide, it will include Turkey, with its Kurdish troubles, its Muslim background, its operetta-democracy always endangered by military instability, with its fragile laicity. Turkey has another future : the one of reassembling and leading a more natural Turkophone community, constituted by the peoples of Central Asia. It would be by far better !

 

[Ralexx]

4. There seems to be a gross error in your message : the countries that will join EU in 2004 are the following : Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Malta, Cyprus. 10. Roumania, Bulgaria and possibly Croatia are set for 2007, IF they will correctly continue the economical reforms. NOTHING was EVER stated upon the future membership of Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Albania, FYR of Macedonia (Balkan states) or the Republic of Moldavia (whose presently half-collapsed economy and Trans-Dnestrian problems are an obstacle)... POOR states ? He-he, is that a crime ? I'm curious how do you define this situation, of being POOR ? You think it's their fault ? (They just like being poor, huh ?) This idea you wrote down is gruesome - a pity to see such an uncritical reference ! The pauperity these countries are the victim of is the consequence of 50 years of Communism (imposed by Soviet Armies, not chosen !), deeply destructive, sustained by terror and crime, economically distorting like nothing imaginable. It's sad I have to say it, but it is a very ignoble assertion the one you made, Javier : for I'm afraid you know nothing about real Communism ; you never lived it, you neither cannot imagine how deep that cancer can reach inside of a society, in its mentality, nor can imagine the hard way out, sunnyboy. It's easy to throw stones with a little bit of sauciness and cheap sarcasm, when you're out of this mess. If you don't care about these 10-12 nations (you're not obliged to care, obviously !), please - at least - don't make imprudent comments based on pure rubbish.

5. Your EU in 2002 - a jewel/painting, whatever, "that shouldn't have been touched" - I'm rolling on the floor laughing not only my ass off ! This is the supreme expression of what I see as timidity, weakness and pusillanimity. This was said in 1973, during the first EEC expansion (the "Europe of 6" turning into "Europe of 9"), in 1981 and 1986 during the Greek, Spanish and Portuguese adhesion, in 1990 when Germany engulfed the former Red-Prussia a.k.a. DDR, in 1995 when Austria, Sweden and Finland became EU members. Every time - the same complaints : "Oh, my, it is going to crumble, to die, to vanish, to extinguish, to dissolve, to collapse, to..." [/b]Yeah, rubbish ! Look, it's alive and kicking ! If Europeans act smart (as you put it), that's exactly because they are smart, at least regarding their affairs : they can handle it !

6. WARS ? So ! we waged wars ! Of course we did ! Are the European nations the only ones ? Point me a country whose history registers no wars. There is none. Conflict is a part of Nature - you cannot escape Nature, but it's our duty, as Human Beings, aware and conscious, to avoid conflict. Above all this, what is war if not that point of tempestuous conflict that determines the emergence of the critical spirit ? Europe's union dreamt in the last 1200 years is exactly the product of the desire for peace !

NEXT: the Balkans !

 

[Ralexx]

7. BALKANS ? What do you know about the Balkans ? Have you been there, or do you rely on what the EU-space press is irrationally printing in many cases ? (If I would rely on the excitement-seeking mass-media, I'd end up believing that the Dutch are drug-addicted gays, that Belgians and American cardinals are innate paedophiles, that Charles of Wales and Camilla will espouse every fifth day, that Italy's population will be substituted by the waves of Tunisian immigrants, that Switzerland is build from money and Milka chocolate and that every corner hides a terrorist !) Some discernment would be both extremely desirable and appreciated. What do you know about the "Balkanites", meaning Serbs, Bulgarians, Macedonians (branch of the Bulgarians, after all), Albanians, etc. ? I have the feeling that these nations are regarded as mere barbarians inhabiting south-eastern Europe : mental drame which is outrageous - what and how much is known from their culture, way of life, history ? Javier, the Bulgarians had an empire when the Netherlands were just marshes ! The Serbs built an empire when England, for instance, was just a nebulous political form lost on an island next to continental Europe !
"They waged war". Where's the point ? Before they started waging wars, they enjoyed centuries of peace in a way "Western" Europe never did ! When they waged wars, the casualties were simple details compared to what the same "western" European wars produced (I'll mention just the 30 Years War, 1618-1648, that left Holy Roman-German Empire 33% depopulated).

Ok, so be it ! They waged horrendous wars right here, in our TV-screened eyes, for 4 years ! I don't know if you were there, but I was, several times : Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia. The Yugoslav space is still haunted by horrendous memories. Dubrovnik is scattered by shell-fire, here and there one can see the bullet traces in the walls ; in Split, convoys of armoured trucks were lumbering out of the docks. The bridge at Mostar, in Bosnia, was blown up and replaced by a wood viaduct. My days in Croatia are still tinted by the reality-vision of my car being at a moment surrounded by enormous SFOR military trucks, carrying soldiers, by enormously-wheeled trucks carrying tanks and heavy missiles, by a convoy of army motorcycles, so terrifyingly gigantic in dimensions that I was dwarfed, petty and useless. This hallucinating reality left me behind and disappeared somewhere in a village. Later, in the shadows of the night, an armoured vehicle stood guard at a road junction. The only road traffic consisted of huge tanker trucks labouring up to Sarajevo from Vlasenica, in Bosnia, their headlights showing far, far away on mountain curves... * Knin, Croatia, close to Bosnia. Once populated by Serbs. Now empty. Completely empty, hundreds of square kilometres deserted. Village after village, everything was empty, ghostly. Just scattered ruins passing dismally by outside... They were not the usual ruins of war - not compacted villages knocked down into extensive shambles by blanket bombing, street fighting or concentrated artillery bombardment, like villages in France, Germany, Italy or Soviet Russia during the Second World War, it was not a wasteland of burnt-out shells and skeletonic blocks. But there was hardly a building in a city centre which had not been specifically targeted, sometimes half-collapsed in a mess of beams and boulders, sometimes just pitted all over with shell fragments or snipers' bullets. It was personal hatred. Such a spiteful sort of destruction. And all this historical and human shit was in Europe. Grand Imperial Hotel of Dubrovnik is still a majestic shell in mid-town, surrounded by elegant tall palm-trees. Libertas Hotel, in the same Dubrovnik, once the most luxurious, is only now being rebuilt and re-furnished : a bomb drilled the 7 levels of the palace hotel from top to bottom, eviscerating it : the explosion even made the pool-terrace break in two - and this one was fixed in pure mountain rock... * Belgrade, 2002. The concrete building of the former Yugoslavian Ministry for Internal Affairs is still a ruin, walls collapsed, windows pulverised, a tacit remembrance of March-June 1999 so-called "NATO" bombing on Serbia.
All this is true.
BUT what many "civilised" Europeans do not know these nations are superbly educated, that - for instance - an average Serb has more general knowledge than an average German or a French ? That "Balkanites" are really conscious concerning their future duties and destiny, concerning a future EU integration (with or without your approval, I'm afraid !), that their states have great potential. (Not to mention the natural scenery of these countries which is sensational ! )

Uuuh... I risk quite an obnoxious pedantry - a risk I'll assume, no matter what... It's nothing personal, Javier ; it just happened that you exposed now exactly that peculiar way of thinking so many western Europeans have (placid, fatigued, with hardly any affinity for new developments, displaying a worn-our cynicism, suspicion and a damn lot of prejudgements - if it would have at least the charm of the Byronian spleen !).

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: Hm...ok...this is quite a lot..i'm gonna answer it later on, BUT...in advance, i wOUld like to say that you have been very presumptuous about what ive said, and you didnt really 'get' what i meant...but youre right about me being cynical, and maybe prejduged, but we'll get to that...

 

[Ralexx]

i wOUld like to say that you have been very presumptuous about what ive said, and you didnt really 'get' what i meant...

I was expressly presumptuous ! Misfortunately, we won't get to a common point. Your own words say that « youre right about me being cynical, and maybe prejduged ». That's the first step to a "dialogue of the deafs" You won't quit your position - and I'm afraid I won't either . We're just 2 euro-stubborn... :-*

 

[Ralexx]

This is cool Some texts are so deliciously childish ! ("Now the bomb has been defused, Europe is a safer place" ... "Get your hand off that Van Gogh !")

Check this site:

www.captaineuro.com

That's the last symbol of Europe, designed for kids.

Now look at this !!! «... To relax, Europa enjoys athletic activities that involve precision and strategy in the SPORT SPHERE. She particularly relishes fencing against Captain Euro. Touché!... »

Dr. Raal Lexx, secret member of Twelve Stars

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: Oi...ive cleared my schedule....ordered take out, and unplugged the phone...

8) Let's get it on 8)

Europe....well...i don't think its dead, like i said, it still can, and does do, great things. But theyre overstepping their boundaries, and act and expan like somebody's chasing them. Why ten all at once (with very different income levels, and economic structures) why not start with the upper five? That way you dont put so much strain on the EU budget. Me as a Dutchman, i have a problem with The Netherlands being the biggest contributor relative to the GDP, and the second (!!) nominally (ill get word from you that that isnt true, im sure ) but it is...

Concerning that inflation thing: The governemnt noticed it to be too late, and of course wouldnt mention it out of fear of uprising. The people...what can they do? Start banging on our prime ministers door like in Paris, only to await a 'not home' card on the door? Consumer organisations have gathered, and discussed, and moaned, and asked for a general pricestop several times along the way...but that would be too drastic for our Tele-Tubbie government.

Morrocco: Dude...i know it was quite a long time ago...but that deosnt mean its off the chart. I seriously don't understand your denial in the candidacy of Turkey, let me tell you: I know theyre not official candidates yet (like the ten to come) or nominated candidates (like Romania and such) but they get talks with the Eu in 2005 on their nomination for candidacy. Diplomacy then, cannot stop the process of joining the Eu, at risk of serious international consequences. the only thing Turkey can do is f'k up big time. Turkey has 10% in Europe, i know, but obviously that is enough. Spain has land in Northern Africa, why not Morrocco then in 10-20 years or so? we'll see who's right And i know you don't have to be Nato member to join, but if your that versed on EU politics, you shóuld know, that it does help, and that agenda's for institutions cross, they don't stick to their boundaries. So Nato mebership helps, and the US could strengthen its plea to include Turkey, i see that happening ever more with the growing presence of the US in the Mid East. But by the way, i'm not prepared to include Turkey, thats where you got me wrong, i DONT want Turkey in it, i'm just saying that its gonna happen, and its gonna mean the downfall of the EU (see: we agree!!! Hooraaaaaay!!) It was an argument for my plea that the Eu....well....that it bites big wind.

O...and Balkan in Dutch is plural (without the S)....so i couldnt help that...

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: * Second Round * lol

Ok...wait wait wait wait...dude...you question my intelligence...i can name you the ten countries in a heartbeat, it seems i use réally short curbs when i try to make a point. When i mentioned those Balkan(s) nations, i meant that soon, theyll be up for candidacy as well....word IS going round about that.

About them being poor. Yep they are poor....no partially it's not their fault, but it not being THEIr fault, doesnt automatically mean its OUR duty to get them in. You can start rambling on about any rubbish cause i havent 'lived' communism and that i shouldnt have this or that opinion. Of course i havent lived it, your point is irrational. However, that does not allow for the condescending tone in your post when you judge my opinion on this poor-matter. Like you have been a spectator (not a párt) of the communist ending period, i have been spectator of some gruesome situations in for example Kenia or Laos. Not for vacation btw. So i have seen poor, and i know what it can do to people. But AGAIN, that doesnt mean im gonna hold all the people in Kenia's hands and say: come join me for dinner. That would leave me and the rest with a breadcrum. The analogy of fish or fishingrod works well here. I don't think the time for most of the ten to join is right, regardless of my opinion on their history. It would put too much strain on the bduget, legislation, foreign policy etc.  

On that Europe being at war for most of its history, i use the same argument: holding hands in a freakishly frinedly manner and jumping in the sack with eachother on almost EVERY friggin front, means you havent understood the deep embeddedness of every individual nation's chauvinism, in relation to the others.

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: Oi...Raal Lex...let be honest...this post is well...'misplacéd' 'redundant' and missing my point complétely. I'm very sorry, i totally agree that what happened on the Balkan is gruesome, and for the people being affected by it, i cannot even imagine the pain and suffering. Every day still, i hear of the Dutch (and/or French) mistake made in Srebrenica, causing the ddeath of 5000 Muslims. You wonder: how can that still happen in such a civilized era, in o so çivilized' Europe. well it did.

But your post in describing all this misses my piont, is presumtuous, and you put words in my mouth. lets be honest  ;D. You start spitting information here, that seems irrelevant, and well...i know it already dude, again, you question my intelligence (hm...my mom too, whats that about?) Anyways...Bulgaria an empire way back, Bla bla...sure!!...Almost every country had its goldens days, Iraq had the biggest civilization thousands of years ago...so lets ask it to join the EU!(yes i know its not in Europe Raal Lex)...i'm making a point.

You mention that you've been there at the heat of the momenet. That must have been intense, and judging from the fire flaming out of your post, it seems so.

Wait...i'm thinking: what point were you making anyways with that paragraph....i wanna reply, but theres nothing tó reply. You have been presumptious about me being prejudged...when all it did was mention the Balkan applying for the EU!...And that i don't think thats a good idea cause the time aint right...not cause i think the people are barbarians (?)....and dammit....i eat with my hands too occasionally. Sometimes stamping your feet like a little child to get what you want is not gonna work, the Balkan (if they even wanna join) should wait and get a lotta things straightened out.

Pfew....am i excused now?

 

[jay_too]

what's my view of europe?

i haven't been back in this century, but my impression is that the people smoke tooooo much (now ain't that american) and are very activists regarding the health impacts of genetically modified food and exposures related to high voltage power lines.

for tobacco the health impacts are well-known, but everyone smokes. for the other two, the impacts are not all that clear. awright, ban gmf from the eu. there might be significant health impacts; time and more studies will tell.

what is the rationale for gmf? this might be a partial solution to the quest to feed world population. it is my impression that the rational man chooses food (gmf) in the hand over the possibility of sickness and disease in the future; or more succintly, life over the possibility of future injury. but to choose tobacco over gmf seems naive to me.

i will admit i avoid gmf and eat organic food as much as i can...but i am in no danger of starving, and i avoid tobacco smoke.

on the other hand, i agree that western europeans tend to be more cosmopolitan (perhaps, cynical) in their world view.

i've been to the british isles, france, germany, italy, spain, and slovenia. everywhere the people were friendly. i loved the south of france and italy....for the food and the ambience....and spain for spanish hot chocolate.

jay

 

[Ralexx]

Beste Javier,
My final point. What you do is giving the same information, only rearranged. Nothing new, no data to support the assertions. You'd like me to accept your statements just because you say so. Sorry, wrong number. You practically assert that EU is willingly self-destructing by accepting Turkey - I simply dismiss such "unenlightened" assertion. Morocco was never an issue after 1987 - how on Earth did you get to it... That's perfectly absurd. Absurd is also the 40% inflation in the Netherlands : kid, you would have been OUT of the EU monetary system, terrific pressures would have been made on your government, do you realise that ? Nope, of course. How can you state the existence of some situations that reality itself completely denies, when reality itself is exactly the opposite ?!!? It's futile to continue. (The Netherlands rioting... Christ, this is one of the best historic mockeries of the 21st century ! I have to tell you I have some 60 friends and acquaintances in the Netherlands, all over the country ; you simply cannot fool me around with such preposterous ideas as "riots". I know how they live, the societal problems they confront : the Netherlands are not "ubi leones" for me. I care about that country, I even feel attached to it. So get real, dude !)

Communism - you're assuming grossly wrong. I didn't assist at its last decade as a spectator, but as a part of it, I LIVED it, because I am Roumanian. Don't you check (at least !) the profile of those you speak to ?... But from the way you look at things, it's scarcely possible that you'll ever understand the need of the 2004-2007 inclusion of the first 10 states, formerly "Eastern", in the EU.

Don't give me replies just for the sake of doing it. Half of them is a bit paradoxal, the other half is factually unsupported. I initially thought you have something to say. No, you just mumble and repeat some highly confused data, facts and figures, extracting some implausible, fantastic conclusions regarding Europe. Mhh... That is why I was expressly presumptuous - and loved to be. It was determined by the very fact that you seem satisfied by (& with) informational stereotypes (what you state about African countries, may I say, I regard as spiritless.)
All you had to do is post interpreted and analysed information (at least, that's the way I conceive a dialogue on such a far-reaching theme). But you didn't do it.
After all, what are you trying to prove ? Concern about Europe's future ? You don't seem to know the way Europe works, why would you worry ? Because it's à la mode ? You seem rather enchanted to complain, mixing it with negligence... Continuing this discussion would be abortive and a loss of time for me.
I bow gracefully, take my presumptuousness (and my Frenchy arrogance, let's not forget this most valuable asset I was granted with in March) and make my exit.

The scene is free : may we please hear other opinions on Europe - seen from outside. Thank you  ;D !

 

[13788]

Javierdude22: Querido Raal Lex,

Let me take each statement you made in this post, and answer it, because i think your pretentiousness is reaching new levels. Let's be fair here, you indulgence a bit too much in the histroy books you've read and memorized, and the places you think you know so well. I have a buncha knowledge to share also with people, but not when its not asked for. The thing is that again, like i said in my previous post, you miss my point...completely!...you must have been bad in analytical investigations.

My very initial posts on this matter, were my OPINIONS on Europe, like the question in the very first post asked for. After a few posts you already start rambling on that you'll 'keep out of it' cause some people had something to say you thought was wrong. Let me tell you...opinions cannot be wrong for they are opinions. Let me playfight with my opinion on Europe, that i think the EU is going in a bad direction, and i'll let you think it's the new utopia. From the start you've tried to re-direct my OPINION. You sayi would like you to accept my statements? Could you please qoute me somewhere on that? I stated them, basta.

Turkey, again, the facts are there, and i have my opinion on it, the talks are gonna start, and i THINK, MY OPINION IS, that it will mean the downfall, like many analysts here have said also. Morocco...hm...are you familiar with the Dutch saying: putting salt on each snail? My god, talk about anal.

The 'inflation thing'. I SAID IT WASNT THE INFLATION!!...first try to fully and acrefully read a post before you try to answer it...it was a price increase not weighed by their importance. And i don't care if its 40 or 25%, the increase was higher then 5%, talk to your 'Dutch friends'about it, the article shook up some things.

Netherlands rioting. Now that is rich...i never even used the words rioting. I was being sarcastic that the Dutch indeed, DON'T riot, cause it would be useless. Read it again dude, read! And don't gimme crap about how much you acre about that country, i ám dutch mon ami, so that i care is kinda a given.

O and i am truely sorry for not knwoing you were Romanian. I knew you are there now, but i was under the impresion of you being totally Fench (the Eiffel Tower and your previous posts musta thrown me off). Je m'excuse.

Then lets adress your little Freudian analogy of my posts. First of all, don't give me crap about my opinion (hey, see that?) on Africa being spiritless. I've been there, experienced some nasty shit, and i think that shit earned me the right to have my own, realistic opinion about it. But even besides that, who said i wasnt spirited enough, i described you the situation because you were presumptious about me not knwoing poor? And if having Spirit is denying reality, than you must be King of the World! Cause dude, they are poor as hell, let me tell you.

Raal Lex, to be honest, you take life a bit seriously, an d if you feel situations caused that, then fine. But leave me and my opinion, humble as it may seem to your wise eyes (your 24, don't think your the oracle dude). You indulge with loads of pretentiousness in you knowing a few dates, and numbers, and having been places. You spit information to refute information when its not asked for, and you seem to be the most intolerant person ive seen here. I would have thought differently of someone who has been places.

Sorry, this became such a...well....undelightful thread, it was meant to post some opinions on Europe.

So lets hear some!

 

[Ralexx]

, Javier, you're almost funny !... 8) That's what the Franch call "brouhaha".

Post-scriptum :

You turned your inconsistencies into a pretext to atack me as a person. You went a bit to far - but well. Pas grande chose. [For any other personal attack on me, use my PM. ] Anyone who would have the time to read your initial postings would see the contraditions you fall in.

the inflation rate they calculated was 40%

and

the inflation rate they calculated was 40%

And now you deny talking about inflation.

I SAID IT WASNT THE INFLATION!!...

And there are some more... No wonder your mother questions your intelligence. (You said it, not me:

you question my intelligence (hm...my mom too, whats that about?)

Of course I take my life seriously - that's my point: live it to the maximum, aware ! That is why I know what I know, that is why I never get into subjects I am not acquainted with or know nothing about. That is why I (quoting you) "indulge in loads of pretentiousness". But I also know my limits.

In the end, you tell me "you seem to be the most intolerant" - this is a judgment you make. But of course, I have to remember your mother questions your intelligence...