European Members:

[dandelion]

The EU discusses minutiae at great length because that is its area of competence. People accuse it of excessive control, but it has no influence in some of these bigeer issue. Right now members are scrabbling to decide if they should intervene in Greeces collapse, etc, which under the rules is not their business.

Does your analysis of Californias debt include its share of the US national debt which it would inherit on independence and what I presume would be a sudden surge in expenditure on its new national army etc? The Greeks seems to have no little part of their problems due to an ongoing military disagreement with turkey.

 

[D_Tully Tunnelrat]

The EU discusses minutiae at great length because that is its area of competence. People accuse it of excessive control, but it has no influence in some of these bigeer issue. Right now members are scrabbling to decide if they should intervene in Greeces collapse, etc, which under the rules is not their business.

Does your analysis of Californias debt include its share of the US national debt which it would inherit on independence and what I presume would be a sudden surge in expenditure on its new national army etc? The Greeks seems to have no little part of their problems due to an ongoing military disagreement with turkey.

Well I guess it simply boils down to the old saying united we stand, divided we fall. I would have wished since that was inevitably the case, upon the commencement of this experiment, that terms on how to handle a crisis were laid out in advance. Markets are always ahead of politicians, if only because capital is fungible, geography and people are not.

It's only a hypothetical re: CA, because A, we won't secede and if we did, the US debt would not follow. (Ironically the only reason the North won the Civil War and hence preserved the Union was the gold lent by CA to the Feds.) Course there would be other expenses, as you say creating a military, monetary system, etc. The biggest difference in our system is that we have a balance of payments, which allows transfers from Fed to State fairly seamlessly - well of course we squabble - but there are no sovereign structural impediments as there are in the EU. If only because I am used to our system, it seems incomprehensible to me that the EU ignored this historical lesson re: integration.

Lastly with regard to Greek's military struggles, it's ironic that if the EU had admitted Turkey, they would have A, deflected the rising pro-Islamic party in a neighboring state, B, have cut Greece's purported need for military might and C, have actually added a member with positive economic growth. Turkey will grow about 7% this year.

 

[dandelion]

I think thats a 'dont know' then on how California would stand if it became independent. Of course its hypothetical, but its unrealistic to say it could disavow responsibility for the US debt. The analogy really is what would be the condition of each state if the US unraveled and dissolved. Someone would have to take on the debt, or there would be a lot more bank crashes. Once upon a time the US was rather less integrated than it now is, but it still ambled along, I take it from what you say with some states (California) rather richer than others. We seem to be in the position of Germany coming up with cash to help out the EU.

Turkeys membership is stuck until they can accept normal rules of judicial process and freedom of the individual. The eu had decided it could put up with impoverished members but not ones with different ideas about freedom.

 

[Jason]

There has been some (low-key) discussion on how the assets and liabilities of the UK would be divided up were Scotland to become independent. The consensus seems to be that Scotland couldn't start with a clean sheet. In particular the liabilities relating to Scottish-registered banks would have to remain on Scotland's books, which would mean it would instantly do an Iceland, so right now the idea of an independent Scotland is just not practical. Additionally it has been suggested that there would have to be international arbitration.

Presumably a California that went its own way would have to go through a comparable process.

Greece could be detached from the EU much more easily.

Issues around Greece's large defence expenditure illustrate where a nation state dissents from the EU world view. While the EU sees Turkey as a democracy and NATO ally to be brought into the EU (sooner or later, probably later), Greece sees Turkey as a dangerous neighbour that could fall to moslem extremism. There is vaue in both views. Of course we all hope Turkey will make advances with human rights and in acknowledging past atrocities and take its place as a nation within the European family - but a collapse into anti-western extremism remains possible. Greece is still smarting from the loss in the 1920s of the ethnically Greek lands of the eastern Aegean which are now Turkish, and many (a majority?) in Greece believe Constantinople and Smyrna should be Greek cities. That St Sophia is in Turkey is still an issue. The break up of Yugoslavia (on Greece's border) and the instabilities in neighbouring Albania have fostered anti-moslem feeling (and even pro-Serbian feeling, which translates into anti-EU feeling). In my view Greece will put its high and secret defence budget above fiscal rectitude and above EU membership. The defence budget will trump everything.

As the chaos in Greece continues it seems relevant to ask where the loyalty of the armed forces lies. If the government ordered the army onto the streets of Athens to fight demonstrators would the army obey? I think the answer is probably not. Presumably this would trigger a fall in the government. One line of thought sees the heads of the armed forces inviting the king back to provide a head of state until elections can be held.

Dandy is going to have a field day with his response to this post!

 

[alx]

The EU, dont get me started! The EU is full of corruption, and despite what we are told it is NOT democratic.
We signed up for a common market, nothing more. Yet we are now part of a Political superstate.

Everything is wrong with the EU, it has no benefit to us, I really could bang on about it and write pages and pages, but I won't.

The underline problem, is that it is not democratic, which is morally wrong.

Heres a link to a short video, If you can't be arsed to watch the first bit about the effect on our country, then just watch the last bit from 13.24 about the way the EU goes abouts it business.

www.NoRemoteControl.org

The EU is far more sinister than you might think.

 

[dandelion]

Dandy is going to have a field day with his response to this post!

Not really. Id only observe that if both managed to join the EU so in effect it is enforcing a peace between them, problem solved. Which I suppose is what a lot of people hav been hoping for.

Heres a link to a short video.

Is that a UKIP party political broadcast?

 

[alx]

Is that a UKIP party political broadcast?

No not really, it was funded by a European Parliamentary group IND/DEM {independence/democracy}
IND/DEM are a group of Eurosceptics and Eurorealist btw.

The group had parties from many countries- Ireland, UK {the group being UKIP}, Denmark, France, Italy, Netherlands, Greece, Sweden, Czech Republic & Poland.

However this group is no longer active. As in 2004 there were about 45-50 members, by 2009 there were only 18 left.
The EU has a threshold on which a group needs to be "official" so hence it is no longer.

However a new group has formed called Europe of Freedom and Democracy, the EDF to you and I.
Which is going well with currently 32 seats, of which UKIP hold 12.

So you were kinda right I guess, UKIP are very much involved but it is not a video actually by UKIP themselves.

 

[Jason]

The EU is far more sinister than you might think.

Don't get me started ....

It is not so many years ago I was a Europhile. That was before I worked on projects funded by the European Commission. The underlying European frameworks for carrying through policy are indeed sinister. They are frightening.

The European ideal has become a religion with its followers driven towards their goal. They trample over economic sense, the views of the people of Europe, the cultures of the nation states, and all for their goal of ever-closer union. In order to work well within any EU organisation or project you need to be a moral vacuum. The right action is seen as the decision which promotes the ideal of the Eurocrats, whatever hurt that causes to individuals. The defence is always that the EU is for the greater good. In return for certain economic advantages (some of which certainly exist) we must worship at the altar of the European ideal. Right now the people of Greece are being sacrificed at the altar of the European ideal.

 

[alx]

Don't get me started ....

It is not so many years ago I was a Europhile. That was before I worked on projects funded by the European Commission. The underlying European frameworks for carrying through policy are indeed sinister. They are frightening.

The European ideal has become a religion with its followers driven towards their goal. They trample over economic sense, the views of the people of Europe, the cultures of the nation states, and all for their goal of ever-closer union. In order to work well within any EU organisation or project you need to be a moral vacuum. The right action is seen as the decision which promotes the ideal of the Eurocrats, whatever hurt that causes to individuals. The defence is always that the EU is for the greater good. In return for certain economic advantages (some of which certainly exist) we must worship at the altar of the European ideal. Right now the people of Greece are being sacrificed at the altar of the European ideal.

Didn't think I would Find another Eurosceptic on here!

Regardless of the influences that the EU has, Its their foundations that are most concerning. Like you said, whatever isnt in line with the EU ideology will be forced in line.

Its foundations should be build on the idea of democracy, yet everything the EU does is not democratic. That Lisbon Treaty needs to be set on fire.

 

[Drifterwood]

The time is coming for the Europeans to pretend to be democratic. Necessity is the mother etc etc

 

[Jason]

I've just stuck on another thread but may as well stick here - a number of Con backbenchers are demanding a referendum on UK membership of the EU. It is very hard to construct an argument to refuse a referendum, particularly if we are having one on AR. We could do them together so the extra cost would be small, and we would know the democratic wish of the people.

 

[Drifterwood]

It's all about timing, Jason.

 

[D_Tully Tunnelrat]

I think thats a 'dont know' then on how California would stand if it became independent.

Turkeys membership is stuck until they can accept normal rules of judicial process and freedom of the individual. The eu had decided it could put up with impoverished members but not ones with different ideas about freedom.

There's no movement a foot for CA to leave the Union, it's been an integrated part of the US for 161 years. It's not really comparable to Greece, or the EU in any way save we are 20% over budget, but we were this far underwater in '02, and muddled through the next 6 years. We are in need, as is almost all of the Western world, of structural fiscal reforms that limit spending to a fixed percentage of State, or Federal GDP. In truth, the UK's finances are probably the most similar to Greece's. Fortunately you are not in the euro.

Though you hear it mentioned often, even over here, I can't see how it would be practical for either Scotland or Wales to leave the UK. The one place where you do hear secession talk here is Hawai'i, which has only been part of the US for 50 years, and is remote geographically. Although politically intriguing for anyone who is part native Hawai'ian, it's impractical economically. Perhaps they will increase the "homelands" for native Hawai'ians because of it. It may not hurt that our Pres. is from there.

Pushing Turkey away from the EU has given considerable fuel to the reactionary Islamic movement there who are on the verge of ousting the old guard CHP. They have been in power, along with the military, since the '20s. If one is rebuked, while at the altar, why not find another union where you are welcomed? Having spent some time in both Turkey and Greece, there is no question in my mind the Greeks overplay the fear of a Turkish invasion. My guess is so long as Cyprus remains an unresolved issue, both nations will feel like they are in some form of the Cold War, and misappropriate defense resources.

To be sure much of what is now Turkey was once Greece, Istanbul and virtually all of the western coast, but geographically speaking it makes more practical geographic sense for that region to be tied to the continent than to Greece. As to the Haga Sofia being more Greek than Turkish, I don't know. It's a world heritage site, which has been in Turkish hands since 1200 when it virtually abandoned by the Greek Orthodox Church. It continues to be a place of religious, historical, and cultural significance for anyone who is part of any branch of the Orthodox Churches. The Turks respect this. Besides they have the impressive Blue Mosque across the square to worship in.

Pushing Turkey towards Islam by rejecting their even conditional entry into the EU probably did Turkey an economic favor, but it also offended a long time democratic Islamic ally to the West, perhaps the only true one, in the process. Turkish law can be harsh, ask any Kurd, but there have been considerable reforms made to the justice system in the last 30 years.

 

[eurotop40]

I've just stuck on another thread but may as well stick here - a number of Con backbenchers are demanding a referendum on UK membership of the EU. ...

Please do. We'll have more money for research.