Eurozone Sovereign Debt Crisis part 2 - Ireland

southeastone

Admired Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Posts
2,171
Media
0
Likes
970
Points
358
Location
Greater London, England, GB
Verification
View
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
Nick Clegg just pointed out that Nigel Farage has personally benefitted more from EU membership than most UK citizens, because he has been a well paid MEP for quite some time. Rather an established politician than an outsider?

.

Unlike Nick Clegg who famously trousered £45 grand for 2 two hour speeches on the EU, one to a bank he had previously slagged off, maybe he is more worried about his own meal ticket
 

rbkwp

Mythical Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Posts
80,313
Media
1
Likes
45,709
Points
608
Location
Auckland (New Zealand)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
smile
your funny v
its expected and i personally welcome such
i think GB/UK made a monumental F'up after WW2 dropping us colonial countries for the Eu dream
and theyre welcome to humble themselves and creep back in ha
be different negotiating now compared to the 50s


I find it a little funny that all of a sudden the UK extends the hand of opportunityto the other side of the world
 
  • Like
Reactions: marinera and Joll

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Now very many people want to see him charged with war crimes.
well you do. Are you legion? It is curious that someone who purports to support UK sovereignty wants a UK head of state charged with war crimes for honestly carrying out his duties. do you think that when Brexit goes disastrously wrong May should be charged with treason? That would seem to be your line of reasoning.

Macron does not seem to perceive that the EU is criminal in its treatment of Greece.
You also love to bang on about this. All the Eu has done is insit that Greece apply the same rules the conservatives have been applying to running the UK. The EU is not a superstate, and therefore does not have one part bail out another. And fundamentally, the Greeks think their best interest is served by accepting the pain for their past mistakes. No one seems keen to sue the US banks who caused this mess.

The pity of the French elections is that they are left with the worst two candidates. They have a nasty "Hitler in a skirt" or a nasty Europhile, and I don't see that one is worse than the other.
So rather like May vs Corbyn in your view?
 

marinera

Legendary Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2016
Posts
2,230
Media
0
Likes
1,325
Points
123
Location
Rome (Latium, Italy)
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
.... It is curious that someone who purports to support UK sovereignty wants a UK head of state charged with war crimes for honestly carrying out his duties.
........
...
'Honestly' my ass.

........
You also love to bang on about this. All the Eu has done is insit that Greece apply the same rules the conservatives have been applying to running the UK. The EU is not a superstate, and therefore does not have one part bail out another. ...
Nuremberg defense reloaded.
 
  • Like
Reactions: southeastone

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Tangible exports that are likely to be of interest to Australia include aeronautics and pharmaceuticals.
The Uk is going to find itself locked out of EU aerospace projects and some might argue australia could do better looking to India for pharmaceuticals.

The UK is not a European nation.
So now we deny geography.

The flirtation with Europe over the last half century has been a great mistake.
I dont know any way in which it has been a mistake! the Uk has become rich as an EU member whereas it was fast going bust before it joined. Right now the UK is suffering pretentions of grandeur. All this '9th largest exporter' stuff you just mentioned as if the Uk has a god given right to keep exporting even though we refuse to cooperate with our neighbours.

I think we are now extending the hand of friendship.
Vibz is right. Who would trust the Uk after we just rejected our most important partners.

In the case of Australia it should never have been weakened by the wrong actions of the UK.
Australia demanded independence, just like all the other colonies. Do you mean we stopped shooting them for trying to be indepenedent? We ran out of bullets! (or at least, troops to fire them.)

If you are being charitable towards the UK understand it within the context of the mess of the decades following the 2WW..
The European empires destoyed their own world power by fighting between themselves instead of cooperating. You do not see the lesson about how essential it is for europeans to work together?
 
  • Like
Reactions: marinera

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,639
Media
62
Likes
5,013
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
well you do. Are you legion? It is curious that someone who purports to support UK sovereignty wants a UK head of state charged with war crimes for honestly carrying out his duties. do you think that when Brexit goes disastrously wrong May should be charged with treason? That would seem to be your line of reasoning.

The key issue is the "sexed up" dossier.

1) Blair demanded that a document was produced that showed Iraq was a direct threat to the UK. There are lots of issues around how he did this. He ended up with the sexed up dossier, which suggested Iraq had chemical weapons and was a threat to Britain (in tiny print the explanation: a theoretical threat to British sovereign bases in Cyprus).

2) Blair showed this to a few chums in government, to the "sofa" that was his unofficial inner cabinet.

3) Blair presented the dossier to the full cabinet. They got the dossier as they walked in and had it taken away as they walked out. They had no time to read it but they had seen it. The sofa told then the synopsis Blair wanted. The cabinet backed this synopsis.

4) Blair went to parliament saying there was evidence that the cabinet had seen but which could not be presented in parliament. Parliament accepted this and backed him.

The attorney general warned of legal problems. Nonetheless Blair got his desired declaration of war, which he had previously promised George Bush he would get.

There are serious issues here about abuse of processes within the UK. There are real doubts about whether this was legal in UK law. There are doubts about whether it was legal in international law. With hindsight the dossier should have been presented to parliament so that 650MPs could read it overnight, discuss it and vote on action. I think there is zero chance that war would have been agreed. Blair used the authority of the PM - authority which he had strengthened - to sidestep this process.

Quite what should happen now is problematic. Putting a former PM on trial is difficult in all sorts of ways. However we have what Clegg while deputy PM called a probable war crime, and it is hard to see how we can resolve this without a trial.

The smoking gun is of course what Norman Baker MP called the strange death of Norman Kelly, the weapons inspector.

****
The comparison with May does not work. She has presented information to parliament and now to the nation. She is acting with the authority of the Queen in Parliament (so no possible chance of treason). She is not taking the UK to war.
 

marinera

Legendary Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2016
Posts
2,230
Media
0
Likes
1,325
Points
123
Location
Rome (Latium, Italy)
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
Blair and have acted as criminals, no dubt about that, holes in the law allow them to not get prosecuted, but doesn't change the ethical judgment about them. May Just looks inept to the role.
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,639
Media
62
Likes
5,013
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
'Honestly' my ass.


Nuremberg defense reloaded.

I'm not sure whether I'm reading too much into your comment. However Befehl ist Befehl! Greece has broken the rules! Greece must obey the rules! Greece must be punished!

This is pretty much what the EU has done. And it is the Nuremberg defence. We now have the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (1998) which in effect sets out that orders must be disobeyed in cases of genocide and crimes against humanity. The basic interpretation is that this is the limit of the Statute, but additionally the Rome Statute may give applicability to Nuremberg IV: "The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him". In the case of treatment of the people of Greece a moral choice was possible and has been flouted.

I don't know what is possible through the legal system. The Nuremberg Trials only happened after the defeat of Germany; maybe EU trials have to wait until the EU has collapsed. However I think there is clear breach. Very many leading EU people may face something like the Nuremberg Trials - and should face such.
 

marinera

Legendary Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2016
Posts
2,230
Media
0
Likes
1,325
Points
123
Location
Rome (Latium, Italy)
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
You are Reading It right Jason, but I don't think, strictly legally speaking, there is material for prosecution. Ethically speaking though, the Troika is responsible and other EU countries share responsobility too. On the other hand, I did not heard Cameron or Faeage asking asking for relief of greece debt.
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,639
Media
62
Likes
5,013
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
You are Reading It right Jason, but I don't think, strictly legally speaking, there is material for prosecution. Ethically speaking though, the Troika is responsible and other EU countries share responsobility too. On the other hand, I did not heard Cameron or Faeage asking asking for relief of greece debt.

I'm not suggesting that Cameron (and the UK) are innocent on this matter. However I think the primary guilt is those closely involved in the Greek tragedy and refusing debt relief, primarily including people in the ECB and EU German politicians. I think you are right that there isn't really a case for prosecution. However in 1944 there was no legal framework for prosecuting the Nazis. It was only after the defeat of Germany that the Allies began to look again at morality and develop laws that enabled prosecution.

I think we are going to see some sort of legal reckoning. The crime against Greece can be described as economic colonisation, but we've very little law available to deal with this. I think this will change. I suspect the world will have the idea of reparations. Presumably all EU nations (including the UK) will be liable, but I think there are greater liabilities for Eurozone nations.
 

chrisrobin

Mythical Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2016
Posts
10,304
Media
0
Likes
26,626
Points
183
Location
Bournemouth (England)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Why? The UK is not a European nation. The flirtation with Europe over the last half century has been a great mistake. I think we are now extending the hand of friendship. In the case of Australia it should never have been weakened by the wrong actions of the UK. If you are being charitable towards the UK understand it within the context of the mess of the decades following the 2WW. The hand of friendship is also extended to the nations of Europe, but as a sovereign UK extending that hand.
RULE BRITTANIA
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
The key issue is the "sexed up" dossier.
No, it isnt. Governments have always used dirty tricks to further the national good. They continue to do so. Just look at Russia trying to rig elections around the world, including I have no doubt Brexit. Just look at May misleading the public about the likely outcomes of Brexit.

The question is whether Blair did whetever he thought was in the best national interest, and I have absolutely no doubt that he did.

The comparison with May does not work. She has presented information to parliament and now to the nation. She is acting with the authority of the Queen in Parliament (so no possible chance of treason). She is not taking the UK to war.
She is in precisely the same constitutional position as Blair. However, nothing Blair did threatened the long term security and wealth of the UK. She does. She has been lying to the nation about its likely future.

We now have the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (1998) which in effect sets out that orders must be disobeyed in cases of genocide and crimes against humanity.
People will die in the Uk because of Brexit. That is inevitable as the country becoms poorer. Are you saying it would be criminal for civil servants to assist in this process?

I'm not suggesting that Cameron (and the UK) are innocent on this matter.
So how much money has May offered to give to Greece? Come off it, she isnt helping them either and they are just as much fellow EU members to us at to Germany. Dont be such a hypocrite!
 
  • Like
Reactions: eurotop40

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,639
Media
62
Likes
5,013
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
The question is whether Blair did whatever he thought was in the best national interest, and I have absolutely no doubt that he did.

That you have no doubt on this matter is not adequate.

The charge against Blair is specifically that he did not act in the national interest of the UK. I assume it is clear after the event that the outcome was not in the national interest of the UK. The question is therefore whether Blair was reasonable to hold what we now know was a mistaken view. The consensus today seems to be that it was not a reasonable view. There is circularity: his view is based on a dossier, but he intervened in the process to generate a dossier which could be seen as supporting his view.

Blair had a primary obligation to the UK but no PM can opt out of obligations to other nations. War in Iraq and the subsequent mess is surely not in the best interests of Iraq.

The question is "whose interests were served?" Not the UK (and nor was it an honest mistake), and not Iraq. We're left with the idea that it served the interests of the Labour Party. Blair had seen the "Falklands Factor" political bounce for Thatcher following the Falklands War and wanted an Iraq bounce for Labour. This is the ultimate condemnation of Labour.

I don't see any way of getting to the truth other than putting Blair on trial.
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,639
Media
62
Likes
5,013
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
You are going overboard here Jason, no comparison can be made between greece crisis and holocaust.

I'm not seeking to make such a comparison. I'm seeking to compare the post-event creation of legal frameworks. Maybe a less emotive example would be better.

The idea is that Nuremberg used ex post facto laws. Crimes against humanity as a legal concept came into existence after the crimes had been committed, but people were tried for these. Ex post facto is unusual but not unique to Nuremberg. The UK's War Crimes Act (1991) gave the UK jurisdiction over Second World War war crimes. Germany after reunification debated whether East German border guards who killed people trying to escape the DDR should be tried. (The German response is complex - basically in some very restricted circumstances.)
 

marinera

Legendary Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2016
Posts
2,230
Media
0
Likes
1,325
Points
123
Location
Rome (Latium, Italy)
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
Jason, Geneva treaties against slavery and war crimes came way before ww2. Aja treaties are even more ancient, although contained imperfectae rules. Beside that, I don't see how you could word a law that could make criminal what happened ti greece, the most close crimen would be usury but it is a problematic figure even in the internal legal systems, go figure in the International law.
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
The charge against Blair is specifically that he did not act in the national interest of the UK.
So I take it that when Brexit turns out to be a disaster, you will be one of the first to demand Theresa May be imprisoned for failing to act in what she knew to be the national interest, ie to Remain a member of th EU? And will you be sending with her all the MPs who have stated publicly they believe Leaving is the wrong choice, but nevertheless voted to allow it to happen? And presumably, even the ones who honestly believe leaving is the right thing to do, but will be proved wrong by events?
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,639
Media
62
Likes
5,013
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
So I take it that when Brexit turns out to be a disaster, you will be one of the first to demand Theresa May be imprisoned for failing to act in what she knew to be the national interest, ie to Remain a member of th EU? And will you be sending with her all the MPs who have stated publicly they believe Leaving is the wrong choice, but nevertheless voted to allow it to happen? And presumably, even the ones who honestly believe leaving is the right thing to do, but will be proved wrong by events?

You are seeking to make an analogy which is unsound, which is a fundamental mistake.

The national interest is determined by considering a range of good and bad outcomes. It is inevitably a subjective concept. In the case of the Iraq war I cannot think of a single good outcome to the UK, and as the dossier was "sexed up" I cannot see that it there was ever an honest argument that gave a good outcome for the UK.

In the case of Brexit positives within the idea of the national interest include the concept of sovereign independence, primacy of UK judges, ability to set migration policy, ability to set all aspects of fiscal policy, ability to runt he economy in the best interests of the UK. All these and many more are potentially "in the national interest". Of course there are potentially areas which are not in the national interest. It has to be said that the big threat - instant economic catastrophe the day after the referendum - has not happened, and the UK's economic prospects look better than most (all?) other EU nations. I think there is plenty of scope for action being perceived as in the national interest.

There's a subordinate question within your post around whether power rests with the people or with the government. There is a tension here. However as a democrat I see power as resting with the people, and the government should carry out the wishes of the people not the wishes of individual MPs. A direct appeal to the people - a referendum - is needed to establish the wishes (so not just a poll) and there are issues around whether a government should call a referendum. However the government did and we have our result.
 

southeastone

Admired Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Posts
2,171
Media
0
Likes
970
Points
358
Location
Greater London, England, GB
Verification
View
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
. However, nothing Blair did threatened the long term security and wealth of the UK.

Really, you do not think the terrorist attacks we and europe are suffering and a huge chunk of the world refugee crisis was caused by Blair colluding with Bush in helping to de-stabilise the region even more than it was already, "we" the west will be picking up the bill for this for ever in more ways than one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Joll and marinera