Eurozone Sovereign Debt Crisis part 2 - Ireland

[Perados]

Much of the narrative of the British Isles has been a conflict between a British identity and a European identity. However from the eighteenth century there is a resolution in terms of a global identity. The UK looked over the seas. The identity that has developed is of a nation that is not European. Two world wars reinforced this.

Strange that nearly all artists, scientists and other intellectuals disagree

 

[dandelion]

This is pretty much what I'm saying. Wrong things are being normalised

Indeed. I posted how Thatcher's first administration was more left wing than Corbyn's proposals. Wrong things have indeed been normalised and this must be undone. For Thatcher to be more left wing than labour, explains how Blair could consider her his role model, and she consider him her successor.

Strange that nearly all artists, scientists and other intellectuals disagree

And brits under the age of 50.

 

[Perados]

What do you think this will mean for "more europe", are the FDP sceptics?

Sounds like merkel and may are in a similar boat all of a sudden?

The FDP are a decent party, a bit like the UK's LibDems. They are a pro-EU party, but they are also pragmatists. I suspect an FDP voice in Germany will help Brexit somewhat, but only somewhat. I think the reality right now is that we have weeks or months of uncertainty about where the power really lies in Germany and what Germany actually wants from Brexit.

The FDP is no longer what it once has been.
In 2009 the next generation took over and failed massively. In 2013 they even had to leave the Bundestag (first time in history - no other part was so long part of a government in the past 70 years).
Now they are back with the same nonsense. Reduce tax, leaner state, deregulation and less subsidies... and I guess just like between 2009 and 2013, they will have massive trouble with the CSU. But now die Grünen are part of the game as well. I think they will be with FDP against CSU most of the time. Not about the topics but in general attacks.

The FDP is pro Europe, pro freedoms and pro economy. But they aren't willing to pay any money. Therefore will they vote against a EU finance minister, with an own budget/ tax income.
The question is, how will the other parties react. Die Grünen could be pro minister + budget, the CSU definitely against. The CDU had some very pro EU statements lately, but I know there are also tendencies against a minister + budget.

I guess the most possible solution is, to agree with France that there will be a minister, but without tax income, maybe a budget out of the EU budget (or one that get extra financed).


But the FDP has also some quite populistic tendencies lately. They demand "more safety", what ever it means. They also think we need to be tough in Brexit negotiations.

 

[Drifterwood]

This is actually quite funny.

The UK is not a European nation.

That is very funny.

The UK is a disunited Kingdom of at least four nations.

I have the same citizenship as the English, but please don't tell me that I share their nationality.

 

[southeastone]

Letter from the telegraph, seems not all labour are so lily livered as corbyn in backing brexit;

"
SIR – Theresa May’s announcement that the Government is prepared to stay in the EU until 2021 is a betrayal on a par with Chamberlain’s sell-out to Hitler and a betrayal of the “will of the people”, who in 2016 voted to get out of the EU and back into the world.

Britain is stuck for at least four years with free movement, the customs union, the single market and control by an unelected body in Brussels.

The British people voted to leave the EU, not to continue paying £10 billion a year, with a trade deficit of £60 billion a year. Mrs May should resign for her act of treachery. The British people will never forgive her.

Arthur Scargill
Leader, Socialist Labour Party
Barnsley, West Yorkshire"

 

[Drifterwood]

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...uropean-union-countries-ireland-a7792971.html

Give us back our freedom!

 

[Jason]

That is very funny.

The UK is a disunited Kingdom of at least four nations.

I have the same citizenship as the English, but please don't tell me that I share their nationality.

Okay, I could have used my terms with greater care. The UK is a sovereign state of four home nations. @Drifterwood is a citizen of the UK but may well see his nationality as Welsh. I see my nationality as English. And Welsh. And Scots. And Irish.

 

[Jason]

Letter from the telegraph, seems not all labour are so lily livered as corbyn in backing brexit;

"
SIR – Theresa May’s announcement that the Government is prepared to stay in the EU until 2021 is a betrayal on a par with Chamberlain’s sell-out to Hitler and a betrayal of the “will of the people”, who in 2016 voted to get out of the EU and back into the world.

Britain is stuck for at least four years with free movement, the customs union, the single market and control by an unelected body in Brussels.

The British people voted to leave the EU, not to continue paying £10 billion a year, with a trade deficit of £60 billion a year. Mrs May should resign for her act of treachery. The British people will never forgive her.

Arthur Scargill
Leader, Socialist Labour Party
Barnsley, West Yorkshire"

He's misused the term treachery, which has a precise definition. He's also missed the point that May is constrained because she is not receiving cross-party support. Labour could actually resolve this.

I feel it is too early to judge these talks. It is all happening behind closed doors with press statements that mean anything or nothing. However:
1) It may be that the Florence speech has kept the process on track and there will indeed be an agreement. Given that the Brexit vote was close it may be that we should all get behind a deal that will be something of a compromise.
2) It may be that May is working up to a walk out. Other options have to have failed (and be shown to have failed) before this is reasonable.

 

[Jason]

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...uropean-union-countries-ireland-a7792971.html

Give us back our freedom!

Ask people if they want something and the answer will always be yes. A better statistic is the number of Northern Ireland citizens who are taking up an Ireland passport. I've seen the figure somewhere. Really I have! Somewhere!

After Brexit there will of course be SOME UK citizens who are also EU passport holders, starting with many from NI. There is also a country (Romania? Bulgaria?) that is already selling passports and citizenship to UK people. If anyone wants an EU passport it is available. Maybe the EU should regularise this. Of course someone travelling in Mongolia (say) on an EU passport will not get UK consular support.

 

[Perados]

Ask people if they want something and the answer will always be yes. A better statistic is the number of Northern Ireland citizens who are taking up an Ireland passport. I've seen the figure somewhere. Really I have! Somewhere!

After Brexit there will of course be SOME UK citizens who are also EU passport holders, starting with many from NI. There is also a country (Romania? Bulgaria?) that is already selling passports and citizenship to UK people. If anyone wants an EU passport it is available. Maybe the EU should regularise this. Of course someone travelling in Mongolia (say) on an EU passport will not get UK consular support.

To get a national identity is up to every nation. Members are sovereign - I wonder that you support such drastic ideas

About statistics... a few month after the referendum I have seen one about thousands of jews, remembering their parents/grandparents were Germans and had to flee the NAZIs. They all have the right to demand German citizenship and they do.

 

[798686]

Okay, I could have used my terms with greater care. The UK is a sovereign state of four home nations. @Drifterwood is a citizen of the UK but may well see his nationality as Welsh. I see my nationality as English. And Welsh. And Scots. And Irish.

Whereas I see myself as British.

English second, although I've adopted Wales as my homeland, which I have a great deal of fondness for.

 

[798686]

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel...uropean-union-countries-ireland-a7792971.html

Give us back our freedom!

Interesting that the passports of choice are Australian, American and Canadian - not EU ones.

Germany only managed fourth.

 

[Jason]

Whereas I see myself as British.

English second, although I've adopted Wales as my homeland, which I have a great deal of fondness for.

Well yes, so do I. But in addition I feel part of each home nation.

 

[dandelion]

1) It may be that the Florence speech has kept the process on track.

I see you too think that it had gone badly off track. The Uk cannot afford 'no deal'. Barnier said it, the only good outcome is EU membership, and May knows this. Funny that everyone involved in the negotiations knows this fact.

 

[Jason]

I see you too think that it had gone badly off track. The Uk cannot afford 'no deal'. Barnier said it, the only good outcome is EU membership, and May knows this. Funny that everyone involved in the negotiations knows this fact.

I'm not playing word games with you. The negotiations are complex and none of us are actually getting a blow-by-blow account. However May's speech itself acknowledged that there were sticking points and sought to resolve them.

Barnier is a negotiator. He is giving the view of the EU. As one of the negotiators there is nothing impartial in what he says.

The EU is the world's slowest growing trading block. It is leaning towards protectionism. In the style of negotiation with the UK it is demonstrating an institutional arrogance. The only good outcome is for the UK and as many other nations as possible to leave the EU. Switzerland and Norway demonstrate that it is possible to be outside the EU and more prosperous.

 

[Jason]

The Palestinian Labour group - of which Jeremy Corbyn is a member - has published the view: "The Labour Party's two-stage solution will end the occupation of Palestine. Our solution will be the final solution".

There has been outrage from many, including many in Labour. However there has been no response from Corbyn or his inner circle.

[I assume everyone knows the "final solution" is Hitler's name for the holocaust.]

 

[dandelion]

I'm not playing word games with you. The negotiations are complex and none of us are actually getting a blow-by-blow account. However May's speech itself acknowledged that there were sticking points and sought to resolve them. Barnier is a negotiator. He is giving the view of the EU. As one of the negotiators there is nothing impartial in what he says.

There is nothing difficult about negotiating a hard Brexit. You just do it. Process completed within 2 years. 18 months now. Well in time before another election due, or before the next election would have been due had we skipped the recent one.

So why did the tories call a new one? They do not believe hard brexit will work. They think it will be an economic disaster and the party will be blamed for the next 50 years. If they thought it would work, all they have to do is push it through and bask in the glory of the success which follows.

THE TORIES BELIEVE HARD BREXIT WOULD BE AN ECONOMIC DISASTER.

I know they have promised to deliver brexit, so that means for them leaving the EU would be an electoral disaster, but also staying would be an electoral disaster. They really only have one option, and that is to transfer the blame for whatever happens next on to someone else. Because there isnt going to be any credit which they want to own.

The EU is the world's slowest growing trading block. It is leaning towards protectionism. In the style of negotiation with the UK it is demonstrating an institutional arrogance.

See? there you go following the plan I just outlined. Trying to blame the EU for the consequences of us leaving.

The only good outcome is for the UK and as many other nations as possible to leave the EU.

Wishful thinking, but if it completely dissolved then the tories could not be blamed for the bad consequences which would follow, and might get credit for an early start adjusting to a shrunken economy.

Switzerland and Norway demonstrate that it is possible to be outside the EU and more prosperous.

Norway has the advantages of being both a very socialist country and having oil revenues per head 10x those of the UK. Switzerland is at least accused of being the world centre for handling stolen money. Whether you think that is morally wrong or right, it isnt something everyone can do. But in the terms you have often outlined, demanding a hard Brexit, they are not outside the EU. The Uk could indeed take a similar deal to them and it is on offer. But you have rejected it. (but we would be in a worse position than now regarding sovereignty and control. They dont think that matters: given a choice between economic power or shared sovereignty, nor do I)

 

[Drifterwood]

The beauty of the delay in Brexit is that it gives plenty of time for things to happen, change and people to think that there should be a second referendum.

There's almost no one in Government who really has the will or heart for it. Corbyn knows it's so poisonous that he didn't even let anyone discuss it.

 

[dandelion]

Corbyn knows it's so poisonous that he didn't even let anyone discuss it.

Yes. His best tactic is to have nothing to do with sharing responsibility with the tories. Just sit back and watch Brexit taking another 20% off the tory polling 'lead'.

 

[Drifterwood]

Yes. His best tactic is to have nothing to do with sharing responsibility with the tories. Just sit back and watch Brexit taking another 20% off the tory polling 'lead'.

I am enjoying the real political debate that Corbyn has begun into what sort of society we want.

Unfortunately Mr. McDonnell wants one with me up against a wall.

I also have doubts that you can now achieve a political consensus in a country as divided as the UK. Brexit has given us winner takes all politics, which is what JC and friends will do after the Brexit debacle puts him into No.10.