Eurozone Sovereign Debt Crisis part 2 - Ireland

Jason

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I am confused by where the May Gov is anyway. Did we really vote not to be part of the Custom's Union? I don't think so as there are several examples of countries who are not in Europe but who are in the Custom's Union. So, presumably this was an open option at the time of the vote.

The Act of Parliament which set up the Brexit referendum was very poor. It did not set out when Article 50 would be triggered, or on whose authority. For example it could have said that the referendum instructed the PM to trigger Article 50 within 24 hours of the vote. The Act could have included a definition which set out what was meant by "EU". It would have been possible to set out that this means single market and customs union.

A partial solution to the muddle is that Leave clearly interpreted leave the EU as leave single market and customs union with much in print and in speeches to this effect. Leave were clear. I don't think there is now any realistic way of saying that we didn't mean leaving the customs union. The open option was closed by Leave.

Then we have the 2017 election where Con and Lab stood on a manifesto of leaving the customs union. Most people voted for one or the other.
 

dandelion

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He went on to explain that the eu/Aus trade deal which has been in negotiation for over 2 years is going nowhere and that the eu is too cumbersome to negotiate such deals. He thinks a UK/Aus deal would be very easy to arrange.
You mean, the deal Australia wants which they have designed to benefit them is being rejected by the EU. So now they want to cajole the UK into signing up to it instead?

Leavers want to leave the EU because it tells us what to do, but already Australia is telling us what to do and we havnt even left yet?
 

southeastone

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You mean, the deal Australia wants which they have designed to benefit them is being rejected by the EU. So now they want to cajole the UK into signing up to it instead?

Leavers want to leave the EU because it tells us what to do, but already Australia is telling us what to do and we havnt even left yet?

No it was drawn up by the EU but has several sticking points with eu wheels turning too slowly and that combining with the eu not meeting standards for bio security to Aus environmental standards. It seems that Australia unlike the UK is not prepared to have Dutch Elm disease/Ash dieback/sudden Oak death/Horse Chesnut bleeding introduced into it's shores to kill all it's native trees along with numerous insect pests which incidentally the eu has banned the treatment for, funny people those Aussies.
 

Drifterwood

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From page 8 of the government leaflet delivered to all homes;
"The Government judges it could result in 10 years or more of uncertainty as the UK unpicks our relationship with the EU and renegotiates new arrangements with the EU and over 50 other countries around the world"

Was this project fear?

It is in fact correct.

Jason and other hard brexiteers feel that it is a price worth paying to be rid of the evil empire, but that is not a majority view.
 
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Jason

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Jason and other hard brexiteers feel that it is a price worth paying to be rid of the evil empire, but that is not a majority view.

I don't know. The media have been out and about asking people what they think of Corbyn's latest ideas, and they seem pretty critical.
 

chrisrobin

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I'm having to think again about the idea that he is stupid. He won the leadership of Labour, did much better than expected in the 2017 election, is purging Labour of anyone who disagrees with him, and is at 42% in the polls.

Yes he's breaking his manifesto pledges, but he is not breaking what he sees as his primary allegiance, Marxism. Power is to be gained in any way, within or without the ballot box. A manifesto is just a means to an end. It doesn't mean anything.

Corbyn is playing the LibDem trick of standing for whatever people want him to stand for. He holds multiple and conflicting views, and people love this.

Yes he indeed beyond the pale, but people vote for the bullies and the thugs. He has gained votes through his support of terrorists, through his support of Iran, Russia, Venezuela, Cuba, through his leadership of the anti-Semitic party, through being accused of being a spy and of betraying the UK.

Presumably we will see in the next few months Momentum consolidation of their hold. Then there's the local elections, where Labour should do well. Then next winter there's the wave of strikes to topple the government.
You do seem to forget that Corbyn won the first leadership contest because Conservatives joined the labour party just to vote for what they thought was a dead beat idea, a bit like the labour front benchers who laughed at him as a candidate and endorsed him for a laugh. The second contest was overwhelming puffed out by new labour voters working the Momentum ticket - plus voters going against press and media opinion.
Corbyn and his backers are a canny lot and think nothing about what happens to the country as long as they get to rule.
Corbyn is a poser and will go where the most publicity is.
As for his manifesto pledges, note how he berates others who break theirs, many layout voters will see this as a betrayal. You have to loom at the make-up of the labour party, die hards who vote labour because they're working class and "my dad always voted labour" and not because they thought about - or indeed noticed - how this current labour party is made up of the champagne sort of idealist. Then there are the union votes which are a block, but then union membership is required regardless of you party but used as the union sees fit - democratic? And finally the something for nothing brigade, the students who think its their right for free education, houses and full health care, who have not idea of what its like to have to save for anything, the cash card iPhone brigade who are happy to have it now and pay
The don't see his political grandstanding of love him love his terrorists, they take this as the sort of fake news that Trump complains about - alas discerning the truth is beyond the comprehension of so many!
As you say, once Momentum get their teeth really into things and the strikes come - not for the workers though but for the good of the party -it will be to late to head the warnings and look back at history.
Oh yes dandelion will go on about Maggie this and that but forget the 3 day week and the damage caused to the country, he will forget the have it now pay later antics of previous labour governments, the Blair years when his only concern was his legacy - a murderer - and browns ignoring all the signs of a meltdown and failing to act quick enough and they will be a line by line rebuttal espousing the party mantra.
Corbyn and his gang are dangerous. They want us to remain shackled to the EU in as many ways as possible.
Corbyn and his gang are more than dangerous - they are trying to say the population that they are worthless and will never make it alone unless they have help from the EU.
Corbyn is a self serving non entity pushed into power accidentally - and guess who'll pay the cost because when the bill comes to be paid he'll be getting a pension he doesn't deserve.
 

dandelion

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Yes he's breaking his manifesto pledges,
really? How?

Corbyn is playing the LibDem trick of standing for whatever people want him to stand for.
Please, did you not notice we have a PM who believes the Uk would be better off inside the EU, but is leading us out of it. You loves to bandy about the treason word, but isnt that almost the definition of it? For the PM to act against what she knows to be the national interest?

Labour stood on a manifesto of respecting the national vote to leave, but of putting the national interest first and not accepting any brexit which does not do this. It is a remain platform because they will not leave unless there is a plan to do so which will protect the Uk economy. They have come to the conclusion that a customs union is essential for this. Logically, if it proves impossible to get such an agreement, then they cannot support brexit at all.

You do seem to forget that Corbyn won the first leadership contest because Conservatives joined the labour party just to vote
No, he didnt. he won on a majority of existing members in both elections, regardless of how newcomers voted.

As for his manifesto pledges, note how he berates others who break theirs, many layout voters will see this as a betrayal.
In what way do you see it as a betrayal? labour is leading the nation back towards remain, which is what their voters want. It is also what a majority of the nation wants.

I see the general attacks on Corbyn's character continue. The general effect of this seems to be to fire up supporters on both sides of the argument but not change anyones mind. I do wonder therefore who benefits from this, except Russia. They must delight in the chaos in the political class of their enemy. I gather the russians favourit strategy is to get two posters on a website and get them to chat between themselves about whoever it is Russia wants to attack.
 
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chrisrobin

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really? How?

Please, did you not notice we have a PM who believes the Uk would be better off inside the EU, but is leading us out of it. You loves to bandy about the treason word, but isnt that almost the definition of it? For the PM to act against what she knows to be the national interest?

Labour stood on a manifesto of respecting the national vote to leave, but of putting the national interest first and not accepting any brexit which does not do this. It is a remain platform because they will not leave unless there is a plan to do so which will protect the Uk economy. They have come to the conclusion that a customs union is essential for this. Logically, if it proves impossible to get such an agreement, then they cannot support brexit at all.

No, he didnt. he won on a majority of existing members in both elections, regardless of how newcomers voted. Yes he did win but as I said many were conservative members who joined the party to upset the system, like the cabinet members he "supported " him, just to upset the apple cart...I didn't say he didn't win fair and square just pointing out how he managed to get so many votes as a total outsider.

In what way do you see it as a betrayal? labour is leading the nation back towards remain, which is what their voters want. It is also what a majority of the nation wants. All the labour constituencies that voted leave believing that's what their politicians would vote for on their behalf. Certainly they didn't want to remain or they would have voted that way

I see the general attacks on Corbyn's character continue. The general effect of this seems to be to fire up supporters on both sides of the argument but not change anyones mind. I do wonder therefore who benefits from this, except Russia. They must delight in the chaos in the political class of their enemy. I gather the russians favourit strategy is to get two posters on a website and get them to chat between themselves about whoever it is Russia wants to attack.
True, while the character assassinations continue and he's news then it will fire his avid supporters into a rabid mob. It might also make those who are more conservative labour supporters to see how far towards Marxism the labour party is going. Problem is that he goes out to seek attention, aided and abetted by Abbott and McDonald and that slime bag Starmer. Russia would love to have a Momentum state as a puppet regime..
 

dandelion

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Russia would love to have a Momentum state as a puppet regime..
of course it wouldnt! What, have some real socialists in charge? Not likely! Did you not know Rusia is run by a political elite and some oligarchs? these are the post recent revolution lot who replaced..er a comunist branded political elite and oligarchs, And they replaced a monarchist branded political elite and some oligarchs. The monarchists believed more in automatic inheritence of title and wealth, the modern reinventions are a bit freer in letting people fight for them.

Corbyn and his party are lwss socialist than some of the post war conservatives, they are not extremeist. They aonly look at all extreme by comparison with the very right wing tory and labour governemtns of recent years. All this huffing and puffing is because the current right regime in Uk politics, which believes in concentrating back into the hands of the elite al the wealth spread by governments of both stripe post ww2, sees its propaganda position falling apart in light of real world events. pople are seeing their wealth disappers -no real wage rises for 10 years - and have had enough.

They were lied to by leave at the referendum, who promised Brexit would solve all their problems, It will not, since we would be poorer it would just make them worse, and the current government knows very well indeed.

Russia has the same foreign policy it ever did, which is to destabilise its enemies. that is why it has been encouraging brexit, and why russian agents post on websites like this.
 
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chrisrobin

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of course it wouldnt! What, have some real socialists in charge? Not likely! Did you not know Rusia is run by a political elite and some oligarchs? these are the post recent revolution lot who replaced..er a comunist branded political elite and oligarchs, And they replaced a monarchist branded political elite and some oligarchs. The monarchists believed more in automatic inheritence of title and wealth, the modern reinventions are a bit freer in letting people fight for them.

Corbyn and his party are lwss socialist than some of the post war conservatives, they are not extremeist. They aonly look at all extreme by comparison with the very right wing tory and labour governemtns of recent years. All this huffing and puffing is because the current right regime in Uk politics, which believes in concentrating back into the hands of the elite al the wealth spread by governments of both stripe post ww2, sees its propaganda position falling apart in light of real world events. pople are seeing their wealth disappers -no real wage rises for 10 years - and have had enough.

They were lied to by leave at the referendum, who promised Brexit would solve all their problems, It will not, since we would be poorer it would just make them worse, and the current government knows very well indeed.

Russia has the same foreign policy it ever did, which is to destabilise its enemies. that is why it has been encouraging brexit, and why russian agents post on websites like this.
I have to say you do live in a world deluded by any foresight or imagination.
Labour under Momentum would be exactly like Russia, a political elite espousing platitudes without substance..
Both sides told the story to fill their own agendas but are you saying that all those silly labour people who voted to leave were so simple they couldn't make up their own minds? Are you saying that despite wild claims from both sides the population was unable to arrive at the decision it did because one side lied?
No one promised that Brexit would solve all their problems, Brexit was a chance to make our own rules, laws and spend our money where we wanted, to control our borders and not be dictated to on the whims of 27 other countries. Many of us didn't want to become part of a United States of Europe.Many of us still don't want that.
But you, I am sure your federalist feelings are all for being swallowed up in a vast United States of Europe made up of bickering self interests that will never be quelled.
The whole idea of leaving the EU is so we can retain what's left of our identity before its subjugated by the whims of Germany and France - we want to retain our Sovereignty.
Corbyn wants to negotiate to such an extent that nothing will be achieved to cut the ties with Europe, he is proposing we continue to pay through the nose and follow all the rules and regulations churned out by Brussels ad infinitum - by why - well just so he can destroy the negotiating teams hand, run the country into the ground and cause mayhem, to prove a political point but not ever the truth of what he truly believes - no scruples, no brain, no ideals other than those whispered in his ear by McDonald...
 

Jason

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True, while the character assassinations continue and he's news then it will fire his avid supporters into a rabid mob. It might also make those who are more conservative labour supporters to see how far towards Marxism the labour party is going. Problem is that he goes out to seek attention, aided and abetted by Abbott and McDonald and that slime bag Starmer. Russia would love to have a Momentum state as a puppet regime..

The polls are continuing to show Labour doing very well indeed. However:

* The idea that the Labour support in polls is "soft" does seem to have some credibility.
* In by-elections LibDems are doing well, mainly at the expense of Labour.
* The UKIP collapse seems to be helping Con more than Lab.
* The Conservatives are getting all the bad press over real events. Parties in power are responsible for everything, including the weather! This won't last. It's the mid-term phenomenon.

In careful language Corbyn is alleged to be a spy. In the pub he is a spy.
 
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And to grass roots Labour supporting Brexiteers a traitor to boot
And to Middle England, an economically illiterate idiot who never learned the lessons of the 70s, and whose election would have dire ramifications far in excess of anything claimed of Brexit.
 
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Jason

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And to grass roots Labour supporting Brexiteers a traitor to boot

We've seen the cult of Corbyn, the man who could do no wrong. Yes he supports terrorists, but only the nice terrorists who have friendly bombs. Yes he's anti-Semitic but he's soo pro-Palestine. Yes he has created the Momentum lynch mob, but they've not come for me so that doesn't matter.

One day Corbyn will over-step the mark. Now might actually be that one day. There are a lot of Labour supporters who are also Brexit supporters. Corbyn is forcing them to choose. In London there is a broad overlap between opposing Brexit and voting Labour, so it won;t make much difference, but in the North and Midlands it's different.
 

southeastone

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On a little Europe bashing point,(unusual I know for me) it seems that the green taxes on domestic bills which we all have to pay and which incidentally are due to nearly double in the next few years will maybe have to go up again now they have found that all the EU endorsed design offshore wind turbines need extensive refurbishment much earlier than expected at a cost of £1million pound a pop, there are it seems 500 of the ugly bastard things so someone is going to have to cough up half a £billion. Siemens the manufacturer is trying to wriggle out probably backed by the German government so will the UK tax payer end up footing the bill?? probably....

I wonder if post Brexit we would be allowed to produce our own wind turbines instead of giving the money to a German company who produces the things in China?
 

southeastone

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I wonder what agent COB and his side kick Mcdonnell have to say about the situation on nationalised railways in France, the following quote says it all?


“The dilapidated network, delays, abysmal debt … The situation is alarming, not to say untenable. The French, whether they take the train or not, pay more and more for a public service that works less and less well…”

So says Prime Minister Edouard Philippe about the state of SNCF, France’s publicly owned railway.

If Labour get in this coming to a rail line near you soon