Eurozone Sovereign Debt Crisis part 2 - Ireland

[southeastone]

Again, I say, have fun and enjoy. Do not be surprised if you have only few friends left since apparently you do not care.

Thanks for your good wishes, much appreciated xx

 

[dandelion]

Yes it is indeed for leave to negotiate but the remain camp with Mr Soros is purposely throwing every spanner they can find into the works with no regard to the damage they will do.

But what on earth do you expect? In a democracy people are entitled to oppose decisions they do not like by any lawful means. Of course they will oppose Brexit, and if they think it wrong then it is their civic duty to oppose it.

British democracy only works because those with a slim majority at any one time forbear to impose any policy which would be strongly opposed by substantial minorities. We proceed by consensus, but there is no consensus to leave the EU. There isnt even a slim majority for any particular way of doing so.

 

[southeastone]

And it's ok to weaken the UK hand and get a worse deal to prove a point on your perception of democracy?

 

[Jason]

The betting odds of a no deal Brexit now place this eventuality at 50%. I've copied below the Betfair betting slip. I think a reasonable conclusion is that a no deal Brexit is now a real possibility, not just a political possibility. Comments by Johnson and Davis have certainly made this seem more likely.


Single Betslip
Betfair Sportsbook
No Brexit deal to be reached before April 1st 2019
British Politics Brexit Specials
1/1
Total Stake: 1.00
Total Returns: 2.00

 

[Jason]

But what on earth do you expect? In a democracy people are entitled to oppose decisions they do not like by any lawful means. Of course they will oppose Brexit, and if they think it wrong then it is their civic duty to oppose it.

British democracy only works because those with a slim majority at any one time forbear to impose any policy which would be strongly opposed by substantial minorities. We proceed by consensus, but there is no consensus to leave the EU. There isnt even a slim majority for any particular way of doing so.

This is not a correct analysis of democracy. People are entitled to oppose lawful decisions through the ballot box (ie bring about a change in policy), and in no other way. People can opposed unlawful decisions through the courts (and can clarify the law). Civic duty requires that everyone accepts the rule of the ballot box.

 

[Perados]

This is not a correct analysis of democracy. People are entitled to oppose lawful decisions through the ballot box (ie bring about a change in policy), and in no other way. People can opposed unlawful decisions through the courts (and can clarify the law). Civic duty requires that everyone accepts the rule of the ballot box.

Best democracy is always a compromise, definitely not the dictation of a majority, no matter how big she is... and in case of Brexit the majority is very small. This means, the compromise should be big.

 

[Jason]

Best democracy is always a compromise, definitely not the dictation of a majority, no matter how big she is... and in case of Brexit the majority is very small. This means, the compromise should be big.

I agree.

The compromise should be a negotiated Brexit deal, and one which is what people were calling "soft Brexit". The stupidity is that it is the Remoaners who are stopping this. They are creating a situation where we may be presented with Brexit-in-name-only, basically all the disadvantages of Brexit and none of the advantages. If this happens then no-deal Brexit becomes the only option.

Personally I'm increasingly attracted to the idea of a no-deal Brexit, but I know this is not a compromise and that it would strain democracy.

 

[Drifterwood]

I agree.

The compromise should be a negotiated Brexit deal, and one which is what people were calling "soft Brexit". The stupidity is that it is the Remoaners who are stopping this. They are creating a situation where we may be presented with Brexit-in-name-only, basically all the disadvantages of Brexit and none of the advantages. If this happens then no-deal Brexit becomes the only option.

This is a flat lie, Jason. I say it is a lie, because to do otherwise would be to insult your intelligence.

The Brexit negotiations are being conducted by a Party whose mantra is Brexit means Brexit.

Then, their idea of negotiation and compromise is to keep asking Europe for the same things that Cameron asked for before the referendum.

If Brexit means implementing the halfwit slogan, take back control, then all we had to do was leave the Parliament. Satisfy the halfwits and then deal with the important and difficult stuff.

 

[southeastone]

Top police estimate for the anti Brexit march in London yesterday was 100,000, impressive they say till you work out that 2.26 million Londoners were remain so only .62% still want it strongly enough to come out, the 99.38% presumably have accepted the result and just want it done.

 

[southeastone]

Incidentally as an example of crowd size, over 400,000 attended the countryside alliance pro hunting march and even more in the Iraq war demonstration, 100,000 anti Brexit march, not impressed at all.

 

[Jason]

Incidentally as an example of crowd size, over 400,000 attended the countryside alliance pro hunting march and even more in the Iraq war demonstration, 100,000 anti Brexit march, not impressed at all.

These two marches had clear aims which could be set out in a phrase (no Iraq war; repeal of fox hunting ban). By contrast this anti-Brexit march is unclear. Stop Brexit? Second referendum? Topple government?

i think the Remoaners have lost it. They have become an ineffective pressure group with conflicting aims.

 

[dandelion]

And it's ok to weaken the UK hand and get a worse deal to prove a point on your perception of democracy?

What on earth are you talking about? Why would anyone seek to strengthen the UK government when it is in the middle of betraying th Uk people? Remainers and leavers both think the Uk government is doing an awful job.

The compromise should be a negotiated Brexit deal, and one which is what people were calling "soft Brexit".

That isnt a compromise, it is leaving the EU.

They are creating a situation where we may be presented with Brexit-in-name-only, basically all the disadvantages of Brexit and none of the advantages.

There are no advantages to Brexit. Pure and simple, every single thing is a disadvantage. Soft Brexit is BINO, because the least painful part of the EU for the Uk to leave is the management structures, the parliament, commission, court membership, council. The bits which actually run the EU and make the rules. If we leave those, the others will still make sensible choices for themselves which we will be able to live with. No so good as if we were members, and forget special arrangements for the Uk because without membership we will get none.

The bits we must have are the trading market. So what will happen as a compromise is we agree to follow all the rules, but make none of them. Soft brexit, Bino, whatever you like to call it. What the UK cannot have is hard Brexit where we lose market access. Because it is a slow path to national ruin. All the politicians, businessmen and economists know this.

The government seems to be following the Norwegian model. ie stay in the absolutely vital parts until such time as people can be persuaded to join everything. At the moment the tories are fighting a propaganda war to convince people to stay in more and more. Their method of doing this is to have different tories stand up and re-fight the referendum by arguing the two sides in public, and then showing the public the Uk has to remain, point by point.

 

[Jason]

There are no advantages to Brexit.

You might not like the advantages, but there are advantages:
* exit from an EU which is "post democratic" and with a "democratic deficit", a monster that has in Greece committed the crime of economic colonisation and which has caused enormous damage to Italy, Spain and others.
* exit from the world's slowest growing trading block.
* a rebalancing of the UK's trade away from the EU and towards other nations.
* control over UK's border.

 

[eurotop40]

Let's forget for a moment crappy British politicians and let's listen to this Irish ballad:

 

[Drifterwood]

You might not like the advantages, but there are advantages:
* exit from an EU which is "post democratic" and with a "democratic deficit", a monster that has in Greece committed the crime of economic colonisation and which has caused enormous damage to Italy, Spain and others.
* exit from the world's slowest growing trading block.
* a rebalancing of the UK's trade away from the EU and towards other nations.
* control over UK's border.

Perhaps you missed this?

Greece hails 'historic' debt relief deal

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

Interesting whether you would invest in Greece or the UK now.

 

[dandelion]

You might not like the advantages, but there are advantages:
* exit from an EU which is "post democratic" and with a "democratic deficit",

The EU is one huge overgrown trade agreement. of course it is not democratic, because it is under the firm control of the member nations, who between them decide what happens next. Indirectly it is totally democratic, because all its important officers are appointed by the democratically elected member giovernments or elected directly. There is no democratic deficit.

What leavers usually are complaining about is that the Uk does not control the EU. how could it control a democratic EU when the Uk is only about 1/10 the total poulation. However, since every nation has a veto on changes, the Uk can prevent any changes it does not like. thats pretty powerful.

a monster that has in Greece committed the crime of economic colonisation

Pah phooey. The greeks had the choice, take it or leave it. no one invaded greece. they were totally free to do anything they liked inside their own country. They might have no good altenatives to taking the EU offer, but that was Greece's fault, not the EUs fault. Greece got into the situation.

and which has caused enormous damage to Italy, Spain and others.

Ditto. What makes you think they would not all be in worse situations if there was no EU? I think they would.

That is the fundamental truth about the EU. It isnt perfect. it is a compromis between ithe interests of different countries. But it is better than nothing. (a lot better). As the Uk is finding out.

* exit from the world's slowest growing trading block.

So would you rather the Uk was more like Zimbabwe? because that is the choice. of course the EU is amongst the slowest growing nations...because its RICH RICH RICH. It already has all the things these countries only aspire to.

* a rebalancing of the UK's trade away from the EU and towards other nations.

You mean, a slashing of the UK's trade with the EU but no change to our trade with the rest of the world. So basically we end up selling 20-30% less abroad. Great. fantastic. How do we pay for that huge loss of national income? Our trade with anyone else is not going to magically increase because we are no longer selling to the EU. Much more likely it will also shrink because we lose the benefit of trade deals negotiated by the EU.

* control over UK's border.

if the Uk goes broke immigrants might stop coming. Only might. We will still ask the doctors and bankers to come here because we want their expertise. We will still ask the rich to come here. We will very likely still end up asking those willing to work for peanuts to come here because they are cheap and actually making money for the rest of us. I doubt immigration will go down if we leave the EU. All that might happen is more Chinese and africans, and fewer French and Poles. Do you honestly think the ex BNP supporters now propping up Brexit will like that?

 

[dandelion]

Interesting section in the withdrawal bill jason is so excited about. It says the UK will impose no hard border between N and S ireland. Will take no steps which make the border more of a border in any respect.

It could be argued that the withdrawal bill says the UK cannot leave the EU. Or at least cannot implement any kind of hard Brexit. It would appear to forbid the government from implementing any kind of treaty which has this effect.

 

[eurotop40]

Jason is telling bullshit all the time. He is not European because he is roma (indian just as Priti Patel) and altogether a traitor of the West.

 

[Jason]

Perhaps you missed this?

Greece hails 'historic' debt relief deal

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

Interesting whether you would invest in Greece or the UK now.

I understand you live in Greece. Have you noticed how poor most people in Greece now are?

Every decision that has been taken about Greece has prioritised Greece paying external creditors, including the ECB. There has been "success" in this issue. Greece has given all the blood the vampire wants. There is no good outcome for the people of Greece. There are a few rich foreigners using their foreign-earnt wealth to live comfortably in Greece, and I suppose this does bring some trickle of income into Greece.

 

[Jason]

Interesting section in the withdrawal bill jason is so excited about. It says the UK will impose no hard border between N and S ireland. Will take no steps which make the border more of a border in any respect.

It could be argued that the withdrawal bill says the UK cannot leave the EU. Or at least cannot implement any kind of hard Brexit. It would appear to forbid the government from implementing any kind of treaty which has this effect.

The UK is clear that there will be no hard border. It will be MaxFac.

The EU has very many porous borders. The whole border with Modavia and Ukraine is porous. So is Sweden - Norway, and Switzerland with all its neighbours. The EU will have to accept a porous border here.