Eurozone Sovereign Debt Crisis part 2 - Ireland

[eurotop40]

It's given us a taste of climate change.
And we've weathered it fairly well, all things considered. As with most things - the more frequently it occurs, the better we'll adapt to dealing with it.

Probably with the help of a fair share of EU and non EU people. I am currently in London and I have seen mostly non EU staff in hotels and restaurants. Oh well, it could be UK born Asians that share British values, right, sorry.

 

[798686]

Probably with the help of a fair share of EU and non EU people. I am currently in London and I have seen mostly non EU staff in hotels and restaurants. Oh well, it could be UK born Asians that share British values, right, sorry.

I don't think 'foreign' people are a problem.

It's just control over our own policy that was lacking.

 

[Drifterwood]

I don't think 'foreign' people are a problem.

It's just control over our own policy that was lacking.

If you don't give examples, you are just repeating Trump Brexit slogans.

 

[Perados]

It's given us a taste of climate change.

And we've weathered it fairly well, all things considered. As with most things - the more frequently it occurs, the better we'll adapt to dealing with it.

I would argue as more frequently it appears as bigger will the negative effects be and as less are we able to compensate them.

The climate change will hit us hard

 

[eurotop40]

I don't think 'foreign' people are a problem.
It's just control over our own policy that was lacking.

You know it‘s all an excuse.

 

[798686]

If you don't give examples, you are just repeating Trump Brexit slogans.

Trump has Brexit slogans?

We’ve been through this, anyway. And I’m giving my take on it - not that of hardcore brexiteers.

Access to the UK of the accession 8 countries in 2004 led to much larger migration than was expected, not least because only the UK, Ireland and Sweden granted full access to their respective job markets without implementing the 7 year transition period.

This was our choice, but triggered a backlash, which by its very nature was out of proportion.

However, it highlighted a lack of control over our borders, and focused attention on freedom of movement which we could do little about - and which concerned many.

Add to this the stranglehold we found ourselves in with regards the difficulty of deporting Abu Hamza et al, strengthening the case for change.

In recent Brexit-related research - which Cameron foolishly refused to undertake pre-referendum, we’ve since become aware of how useful, and in some ways essential, foreign workers are to our economy, and also imo to our society.

However, there’s still desire for control over this ourselves, and arguments for sovereignty over our own borders still stand.

This was just one strand of the general dissatisfaction concerning our membership of the EU, leading many to desire withdrawal.

 

[798686]

You know it‘s all an excuse.

Bullshit.

I’m still not sure what foreign workers have to do with climate change and hot UK weather, though...

 

[Perados]

Bullshit.

I’m still not sure what foreign workers have to do with climate change and hot UK weather, though...

Jason used the climate change as a reason for keeping immigrants out of Britain

 

[Jason]

Jason used the climate change as a reason for keeping immigrants out of Britain

That is a bit of a stretch!

Way back in this thread I pointed out that London and SE England are running short of water, and there's no easy way to increase supply or reduce consumption. We would be running out of water even without climate change. This very dry summer hasn't created actual shortages. The official view is that London and SE is proof against one dry summer, but could not take two consecutive dry summers. I suppose climate change makes two consecutive dry summers more likely, but it was possible even before.

Right now we have no problem. If next summer is dry we will have to start water cuts about August. The big users in the area are domestic users. (In most parts of the world, industrial use is greater than domestic use.) Cuts will be in the form of turn-off periods for domestic supply. It hasn't happened and we all hope it won't happen, but it is a risk.

London+SE+East are about 23m people. This is the area that has seen very fast growth. Most migrants to UK go to this area. We really need to redistribute the population, but that is very difficult. The simplest change is to stop the relentless migration into UK.

 

[dandelion]

It's given us a taste of climate change.

Reminds me of the hot summers we had in my youth.

Way back in this thread I pointed out that London and SE England are running short of water, and there's no easy way to increase supply or reduce consumption.

Rubbish. There is the 20% lost to leaks for a start. Privatisation has done bugger all to reduce leakage, because private companies dont care at all if they run out and have to cut you off. It isnt as if you have any choice.

Water to them is free in a reservoir, costs hardly anything to process so they dont care if they waste it.

and then there is crazy advice to consumer. like take a shower. So I have a shower,only a couple of years old, over the bath. Put the plug in and I see have used more water having a shower than if i had a bath. The shower itself squirts out water too fast. Then most loos use too much per flush,. We throw away bath water instead of using it for loo flushing and so on and so on.

We really need to redistribute the population

Or we build a massive pipeline from where there is lots of water to the SE. Some such schemes have already been built, but water companies have no incentive to sort out the problem. If it was government controlled we could have done it. If it was really a problem we would have done it.

 

[dandelion]

Army on standby for no-deal Brexit emergency

Government admits plan to stockpile medicines and blood in case of no-deal Brexit

Theresa May thinks a Mad Max-style Brexit armageddon is better than a bad deal

 

[798686]

Reminds me of the hot summers we had in my youth.

Rubbish. There is the 20% lost to leaks for a start. Privatisation has done bugger all to reduce leakage, because private companies dont care at all if they run out and have to cut you off. It isnt as if you have any choice.

Water to them is free in a reservoir, costs hardly anything to process so they dont care if they waste it.

and then there is crazy advice to consumer. like take a shower. So I have a shower,only a couple of years old, over the bath. Put the plug in and I see have used more water having a shower than if i had a bath. The shower itself squirts out water too fast. Then most loos use too much per flush,. We throw away bath water instead of using it for loo flushing and so on and so on.

Or we build a massive pipeline from where there is lots of water to the SE. Some such schemes have already been built, but water companies have no incentive to sort out the problem. If it was government controlled we could have done it. If it was really a problem we would have done it.

I totally agree with the pipeline idea.

I know there's one from Lake Vyrnwy to Birmingham, but... since we usually have a surfeit in North Wales, Dwr Cymru should look into more pipelines down south, and charge for it.

Might as well earn from our assets.

 

[Jason]

The pipeline idea is problematic to serve London and SE. The big problem is that it would need to be pumped, not a gravity system, and the quantity of water is far greater than say an oil pipeline. The cost would be huge.

Ideas of using bath water to flush toilets are fine as a sound bite but aren't practical. It would need a pump system to get the bath water up to a tank, then pipe from this tank to the toilet system. It's expensive to instal and run and requires space for a tank.

Leakage is about as low as anywhere. No one can disagree that further reduction would help, but it is not a magic answer. Many leaks are from the old water main infrastructure. It isn't cheap to resolve.

Probably the most useful option would be to get Dandelion to replace his rubbish shower. A decent shower is more economical with water, but a simple rose attached to the bath taps probably isn't, and a lot of supposedly quality showers have been designed to sell shower installations not save water. A water-efficient shower actually costs more and not everyone likes them. Toilets that use less water per flush are now the norm for new installation and terribly unpopular.

There isn't some simple solution for the water stress.

 

[Drifterwood]

Trump has Brexit slogans?

We’ve been through this, anyway. And I’m giving my take on it - not that of hardcore brexiteers.

Access to the UK of the accession 8 countries in 2004 led to much larger migration than was expected, not least because only the UK, Ireland and Sweden granted full access to their respective job markets without implementing the 7 year transition period.

This was our choice, but triggered a backlash, which by its very nature was out of proportion.

However, it highlighted a lack of control over our borders, and focused attention on freedom of movement which we could do little about - and which concerned many.

Add to this the stranglehold we found ourselves in with regards the difficulty of deporting Abu Hamza et al, strengthening the case for change.

In recent Brexit-related research - which Cameron foolishly refused to undertake pre-referendum, we’ve since become aware of how useful, and in some ways essential, foreign workers are to our economy, and also imo to our society.

However, there’s still desire for control over this ourselves, and arguments for sovereignty over our own borders still stand.

This was just one strand of the general dissatisfaction concerning our membership of the EU, leading many to desire withdrawal.

Everyone would do well to read this. Shadow Politics: Meet the Digital Sleuth Exposing Fake News It's Sunday after all.

Abu Hamza et al. Absolutely right. That is why we left the EU, a Jordanian extremist. That, and idiots who thought Eastern Europeans were taking their benefits or the jobs they wouldn't do anyway. How to get morons to vote for you. That is why the Fake News knowledge of the Trump camp and others undermined the democratic process in the UK.

Of course, people who voted to leave don't want to believe that they were hoodwinked. They want to believe fake news, they want to believe their opinions, even if they have come from years of manipulation by scum such as the Mail and Express.

Brexit is part of the Trump agenda and part of Putin's agenda.

Thank you Brexit voters.

A personal thank you from Donald.

 

[Drifterwood]

By the way, that's Aaron Banks on Donnie's right. Not sure if his Russian wife was at that party.

 

[Jason]

There are very many reasons why people voted Leave, just as there are very many reasons why people voted Remain. I don't think any sentence which is in the form of "People voted X because of Y" works.

There has been analysis of what motivated people to vote Yes or No in the Scottish Independence Referendum, for example here, but also many other studies. What is immediately apparent is that the reasons are complex. This particular study looks at 16 reasons, and this in addition to correlating the vote to people's age, etcetera. However just about the only thing that is clear is people's reason for voting Yes to independence: 70% said the principle that all decisions about Scotland should be taken in Scotland.

It is of course possible to debate the extent to which this could ever be possible, but the point is around why people voted. I think the nearest approach to an answer to why people voted Leave in the Brexit referendum (and any possible answer is weak) is on the lines of the principle that all decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK. As with Scottish independence it is possible to debate the practicalities, but I that's not really the point. I think "taking back control" is as near as we are going to get to a motivator for the Leave vote. People voting leave were to an extent motivated by the idea of taking back control, alongside other motivations.

 

[Drifterwood]

There are very many reasons why people voted Leave, just as there are very many reasons why people voted Remain. I don't think any sentence which is in the form of "People voted X because of Y" works.
.

I have been pointing out to you, Jase, pretty much since the referendum that the Leave vote was a rag bag of different motivations, and that the critical part of this is that there were a serious number of idiots and racists without whom we would be remaining in the EU and not facing the prospect of Project Probable which even Mogg now admits will take two generations to pay for.

Just tell me who you object to in the Remain camp. No more spin, no more bullshit, just name the motivations that you find unacceptable.

Two generations. Wow. Fortunately I can live outside the UK. And to think that that cunt Johnson told everyone that we would be better off and the money would go to the NHS. Is that the biggest lie in living memory? And people want these people to lead the country? Cuckoo. Trump must have already taken over.

 

[Drifterwood]

I have been reading your posts for a very long time Jason. I know you don't like Trump. I know you don't like racists and I imagine you don't find much in common with petty ignorant people either. But you can not reconcile yourself to admit that without these people and the ability to harness their vote through Trump tactics, you would never have achieved your aim of the UK leaving the EU.

 

[Jason]

... just name the motivations that you find unacceptable.

The motivation of despair. The idea that we all have to accept the corporatist racket that is the EU because nothing better can exist. We have to accept a crime akin to a crime against humanity, that of economic colonisation against Greece. We have to accept a democratic deficit in a technocratic construct. We have to accept an institution which is on the cusp of transformation into a religion.

There are other models. I know something about Iceland. A better parallel might be Csnada, close to the USA but different. The Swiss model is interesting (though lots I don't like about it).

Remain has many establishment figures backing, and they are almost all respectable individuals. Leave has some nut jobs. This is unfortunate but doesn't change the fundamentals. The establishment offer only fear of change, ultimately a narrow view of the potential of humanity. Leave offers hope. And even if this hope leads to problems, it is still the way of hope.

In Bunyan's terms Remain represents the earthly comforts of the City of Desruction, while Leave is the straight and narrow way through the Slough of Despond and up the hill to the Celestial City. The present Brexit muddles are the Slough of Despond.

Humanity deserves better than the EU. The UK has the opportunity to lead the way.

 

[798686]

Everyone would do well to read this. Shadow Politics: Meet the Digital Sleuth Exposing Fake News It's Sunday after all.

Abu Hamza et al. Absolutely right. That is why we left the EU, a Jordanian extremist. That, and idiots who thought Eastern Europeans were taking their benefits or the jobs they wouldn't do anyway. How to get morons to vote for you. That is why the Fake News knowledge of the Trump camp and others undermined the democratic process in the UK.

Of course, people who voted to leave don't want to believe that they were hoodwinked. They want to believe fake news, they want to believe their opinions, even if they have come from years of manipulation by scum such as the Mail and Express.

Brexit is part of the Trump agenda and part of Putin's agenda.

Thank you Brexit voters.

A personal thank you from Donald.

View attachment 1200210

Oh ffs, chill your noodle.

You asked for the background to my post - I gave it. The fact that you replied facetiously shows you found precious little to disagree with in it.

Abu was a footnote in the post, explaining further the backlash around immigration and border control.

As you well know.